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GWR dispute regarding journeys between Totnes and Exmouth

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6Gman

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There are elements here that have me confused so could the OP clarify?

You were travelling from Totnes to Exmouth. The ticket office at Totnes was closed. Was the ticket machine available? Was there any reason you could not use it?

You were stopped at - presumably - Exmouth? You then refer to an Unpaid Fare Notice. Was this issued at Exmouth or subsequently? I don't understand why an UFN would have been issued because you could, presumably, have paid there and then if they simply wanted the fare.

I'm assuming you then got a letter from GWR asking for the fare + admin costs (hence the £106 which sounds like a £26 fare with an £80 admin figure). I assume you chose to challenge this.

The railway company then did some digging and feel (rightly or wrongly) that there were other instances of fare evasion, which they now wish to pursue.
 
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Watershed

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Thanks for your very informative reply. Where can I find the laws that they say they can’t cannot prosecute you for journeys you allegedly undertook without a ticket more than 6 months ago? It would be good for me to do a bit of research before Monday .
Thanks
See section 127 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980.
 

221129

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There are elements here that have me confused so could the OP clarify?

You were travelling from Totnes to Exmouth. The ticket office at Totnes was closed. Was the ticket machine available? Was there any reason you could not use it?

You were stopped at - presumably - Exmouth? You then refer to an Unpaid Fare Notice. Was this issued at Exmouth or subsequently? I don't understand why an UFN would have been issued because you could, presumably, have paid there and then if they simply wanted the fare.

I'm assuming you then got a letter from GWR asking for the fare + admin costs (hence the £106 which sounds like a £26 fare with an £80 admin figure). I assume you chose to challenge this.

The railway company then did some digging and feel (rightly or wrongly) that there were other instances of fare evasion, which they now wish to pursue.
As far as I can see, none of this information has been provided? The only station mention is Ivybridge!

Edit - A post was edited after I had been through the thread a couple of times
 

Bungle158

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But If it’s not true why am earth would they make a statement like that? Seems immoral

thanks
Sorry Reuben, l had issues editing my post

Actions before a Magistrate's Court are subject to a statutory limitation. i.e. the 6 months you refer to.

However, Revenue Protection services have access to comprehensive logs and data, both in house and from 3rd party apps.

Should they discover possible suspicious activity, they may feel justified in billing for losses incurred by potentially fraudulent activity. Such action and potential subsequent court proceedings are not then limited by statute.

I am not suggesting you are guilty, merely pointing out why things have developed in this way
 
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There are elements here that have me confused so could the OP clarify?

You were travelling from Totnes to Exmouth. The ticket office at Totnes was closed. Was the ticket machine available? Was there any reason you could not use it?

You were stopped at - presumably - Exmouth? You then refer to an Unpaid Fare Notice. Was this issued at Exmouth or subsequently? I don't understand why an UFN would have been issued because you could, presumably, have paid there and then if they simply wanted the fare.

I'm assuming you then got a letter from GWR asking for the fare + admin costs (hence the £106 which sounds like a £26 fare with an £80 admin figure). I assume you chose to challenge this.

The railway company then did some digging and feel (rightly or wrongly) that there were other instances of fare evasion, which they now wish to pursue.
Yes . I was unable to buy a ticket initially and those figures are correct . What I don’t understand is firstly how can they assume that I have approximately 20 times evaded fairs based on my address and Trainline account . It makes no sense what if I buy a ticket on the train what if I buy one from the station or on the gwr website or my partner buys two tickets . They can’t tell me I’ve done something if I haven’t !
 

6Gman

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Yes . I was unable to buy a ticket initially and those figures are correct . What I don’t understand is firstly how can they assume that I have approximately 20 times evaded fairs based on my address and Trainline account . It makes no sense what if I buy a ticket on the train what if I buy one from the station or on the gwr website or my partner buys two tickets . They can’t tell me I’ve done something if I haven’t !
Sorry, but before we turn to the "20 times" issue can we clarify what happened in the first incident?

When you say "I was unable to buy a ticket initially" what do you actually mean? Why could you not use the ticket machine at Totnes? Did you change trains en route? If so where? Where were you stopped? What was the discussion with the member of staff?
 
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Sorry, but before we turn to the "20 times" issue can we clarify what happened in the first incident?

When you say "I was unable to buy a ticket initially" what do you actually mean? Why could you not use the ticket machine at Totnes? Did you change trains en route? If so where? Where were you stopped? What was the discussion with the member of staff?
Hi. There was a lengthy queue at the ticket machine , Trainline would not let me buy a ticket even though the trains where empty and there was no one to sell me a ticket on the train. Regardless of that. They have claimed that I have made 4 returns and 16 single journeys from ivybridge train station. Firstly if they’ve known that I’ve done this why are they only mentioning it now. Secondly I have only got about 5 trains from ivybridge in my life , let alone in the last 3 years .

the money that they initially wanted me to pay £106 was understandable why they wanted me to pay it , even though I thought I had done my very best to buy a ticket ( without missing my train.) my issue is because I’ve been slightly argumentative about this they have now accused me of numerous other things I haven’t done and requested me to pay a total of £2197 instead of the initial £106
Thanks
 

alistairlees

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You would best help yourself if you answered the questions that the knowledgeable forum members are asking; they are trying to help you.

If you don’t answer these questions, then they cannot help.

Concentrate on answering the questions about the initial journey, for which you have been asked to pay £106, first.

There can be a discussion about the second part later.

Is your username your real name by the way? If it is I suggest you start again.
 

6Gman

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Hi. There was a lengthy queue at the ticket machine , Trainline would not let me buy a ticket even though the trains where empty and there was no one to sell me a ticket on the train. Regardless of that. They have claimed that I have made 4 returns and 16 single journeys from ivybridge train station. Firstly if they’ve known that I’ve done this why are they only mentioning it now. Secondly I have only got about 5 trains from ivybridge in my life , let alone in the last 3 years .

the money that they initially wanted me to pay £106 was understandable why they wanted me to pay it , even though I thought I had done my very best to buy a ticket ( without missing my train.) my issue is because I’ve been slightly argumentative about this they have now accused me of numerous other things I haven’t done and requested me to pay a total of £2197 instead of the initial £106
Thanks
1. Because they've researched your travel history as a result of your coming "onto their radar" ?
2. In which case you've nothing to worry about. But if your Traveline history shows you buying numerous tickets to/from Ivybridge how would you explain that?

Two further questions:

Are you able to access your Traveline booking history?
How were you expecting to buy your ticket on the day you set off for Exmouth? (How do you usually buy tickets?)
 

Watershed

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There was a lengthy queue at the ticket machine
Unfortunately needing to queue for a long time is not an accepted reason for boarding without a ticket. Even if that means missing your train.

I certainly agree it's a harsh policy, but it is how the law stands.

there was no one to sell me a ticket on the train
There would have been a conductor, you might have been OK if you asked them to buy a ticket, but unfortunately it appears you didn't.

They have claimed that I have made 4 returns and 16 single journeys from ivybridge train station. Firstly if they’ve known that I’ve done this why are they only mentioning it now
They probably went into more detail investigating the matter, and looking up tickets bought under accounts with your name and address.

Secondly I have only got about 5 trains from ivybridge in my life , let alone in the last 3 years .
Then mention this in your response to them. If they are prosecuting you, it is their duty to prove their allegations all reasonable doubt. You being the account holder of an account that has made "suspicious" purchases isn't going to be sufficient evidence on its own.

Of course, the difficulty you have is that if arguing with them means they refuse to offer you a settlement, you are liable to be prosecuted and convicted for the original offence for which they wrote to you.

even though I thought I had done my very best to buy a ticket ( without missing my train.)
Unfortunately whilst that may be true, the law effectively says you must miss a train if that's what it takes to buy a ticket.

The Trainline or another app or website probably would have sold you a ticket for the train after the one you intended to board. That ticket would likely have been valid on your intended train too.

my issue is because I’ve been slightly argumentative about this they have now accused me of numerous other things I haven’t done and requested me to pay a total of £2197 instead of the initial £106
Unfortunately it seems unlikely you are going to get another offer of settlement for £106 and that, even if you are acquitted of/not prosecuted for the 19 other journeys they are alleging, that is still going to cost you a lot more than £106 at Court.
 

Bungle158

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I believe that all recorded ticket irregularity cases are further cross checked for potential other issues. Thus, a straightforward fare plus admin event may be uprated should new information come to light. In view of the sum now involved and the potentially more serious aspect of the case, perhaps the OP may be as well to get some form of legal advice.
 

30907

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Once again, please concentrate on your original journey and tell us what happened. All we know is that you started from Totnes on 27 Dec without a ticket.
 

Mak1981

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You say you only have taken about 5 journeys from Ivybridge in your life, what other journeys do you normally make?
 
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1. Because they've researched your travel history as a result of your coming "onto their radar" ?
2. In which case you've nothing to worry about. But if your Traveline history shows you buying numerous tickets to/from Ivybridge how would you explain that?

Two further questions:

Are you able to access your Traveline booking history?
How were you expecting to buy your ticket on the day you set off for Exmouth? (How do you usually buy tickets?)
I usually use Trainline but during the Christmas season the trains were coming up as unavailable to book.

I think I’ve got a train from ivybridge maybe 5 times in my life so I don’t know where they got these figures from . I am able to access it but not all the way back to 3 years . And plus if it was on my purchase history , then that would prove that I paid for my tickets so I don’t understand what they would get from that.

thanks for all your advice btw

You say you only have taken about 5 journeys from Ivybridge in your life, what other journeys do you normally make?
I rarely use trains to be honest . Only usually when going long distance to London etc . The trains from ivybridge are very few hence why I rarely trains from there.

thanks

Unfortunately needing to queue for a long time is not an accepted reason for boarding without a ticket. Even if that means missing your train.

I certainly agree it's a harsh policy, but it is how the law stands.


There would have been a conductor, you might have been OK if you asked them to buy a ticket, but unfortunately it appears you didn't.


They probably went into more detail investigating the matter, and looking up tickets bought under accounts with your name and address.


Then mention this in your response to them. If they are prosecuting you, it is their duty to prove their allegations all reasonable doubt. You being the account holder of an account that has made "suspicious" purchases isn't going to be sufficient evidence on its own.

Of course, the difficulty you have is that if arguing with them means they refuse to offer you a settlement, you are liable to be prosecuted and convicted for the original offence for which they wrote to you.


Unfortunately whilst that may be true, the law effectively says you must miss a train if that's what it takes to buy a ticket.

The Trainline or another app or website probably would have sold you a ticket for the train after the one you intended to board. That ticket would likely have been valid on your intended train too.


Unfortunately it seems unlikely you are going to get another offer of settlement for £106 and that, even if you are acquitted of/not prosecuted for the 19 other journeys they are alleging, that is still going to cost you a lot more than £106 at Court.
Ok thanks. Yes this is all very annoying . Think I was just A bit stressed with this COVID thing . And people in totnes are pretty against social distancing etc.

but as you said before . They can’t prosecute me after 6 months anyway so why are they doing all of this? And it still very much baffles me why they have made up these figures.

in an ideal world what would you say/do/ask from them to try and avoid court / paying more than original requested amount? I mean what they say is incorrect but I’ve never been very good with wording or that sort of stuff

really appreciate all your help btw.
 

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Mak1981

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So not making any other journeys really at all, even from other stations?

As what they could be looking at in your journey history etc is say you bought a ticket for a shorter journey from another station to but then picked it up at ivybridge, they could tell where the ticket was collected from but see that its from a station closer to Exmouth and that you maybe didn't have a valid ticket from Ivybridge to the station the ticket was valid from

Ypu are saying they are claiming around 20 journeys, If you hardly ever use the train have you actually used trains 20 times in last 3 years from any stations at all?
 

Watershed

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They can’t prosecute me after 6 months anyway so why are they doing all of this?
Even though they can't prosecute offences committed more than 6 months ago, they can still consider any such alleged offences when deciding how much to ask for a settlement.

in an ideal world what would you say/do/ask from them to try and avoid court / paying more than original requested amount?
You'd explain (with evidence if possible) which of their allegations are incorrect, and that you accept that you were in the wrong when you failed to buy a ticket before boarding in the 27 December incident, and that you are happy to settle that incident.
 
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No , to be honest I live in London. I gave them my mums address initially because I’m staying in Devon till lockdown is over ( my mums near ivybridge) and I feel like there just trying their luck.
 

Mak1981

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To just be trying their luck they must believe that you have made more than just 5 journeys, have you made 20 journeys by train between any destinations in the last 3 years, also if they are looking for a 2k settlement for 20 journeys that's likely 20 journeys of around a ticket value of £100, you wouldn't be charged a big admin fee for each journey, so splitting say £100 admin plus £1900 for journeys is likely 100ish give or take a ticket, so they must be looking at longer journeys for some reason, they wouldn't just pluck it out of thin air
 

richw

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Have you got a journey history of buying Mtickets to or from Totnes on the app?
You’ve already told us your supplied address is near to Ivybridge so reading between the lines I suspect they’re alleging you’ve travelled from Ivybridge because that’s a station nearest to home?
Ivybridge has a poor service frequency so it’s quite reasonable to drive or get a lift to Totnes.
The onus is on them to provide proof of you doing this, and to have explained the calculation. Unless you’ve failed to tell us the full information from their correspondence, I’d suggest enquiring how they’ve determined this.
 

Bungle158

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Even though they can't prosecute offences committed more than 6 months ago, they can still consider any such alleged offences when deciding how much to ask for a settlement.
With respect, l think there may be another angle. If there are allged offences the TOC are considering prosecuting under the 2006 Fraud Act, then they are triable either way. i.e. at Magistrate's or Crown Court. This removes the 6 month restriction.

I appreciate that the vast majority of fare offences are disposed of via specific railway based legislation at summary level. However, fare evasion committed over a significant period of time, (3 years would qualify), ceases to be fare evasion and can instead be seen to fall under the 2006 Act and become in effect, fraud.

I am in no way suggesting that the OP is guilty of fraud or indeed wrongdoing, apart from the originating, relatively minor event with the railway official. Instead, l merely offer the possible reasoning behind the TOC's course of action.

We cannot know more until the TOC show their hand and/or we are fully updated. There could be errors in their claim, but as l wrote previously, given the amount of money and potential consequences to the OP, he would IMO, be well advised to seek some form of professional advice.

Edited to add..If the TOC are using the £2K plus figure as an initial ploy to extract payment, any court would take a very dim view of their action. As such, l think this is unlikely.
 
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CyrusWuff

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As an aside, please remember that TOC staff at all levels frequent these forums, and if the OP has used their real name as their username it would be trivially easy for the TOC to link the two.

It's also possible that the TOC could seek to introduce this thread as evidence should it proceed to Court, so please be careful.

Given the amount involved, it may be worth trying to arrange a consultation with a solicitor to seek their opinion. A regular solicitor experienced in criminal defence, rather than one with specialist railway knowledge, should be fine if you can find one that offers a free initial consultation.
 

ukkid

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Really confusing thread. All I could decipher is that Op is being accused of making 16(?) journeys from Ivybridge to somewhere over three years. Apparently this is based on information from their Trainline app and address?
Op denies making them but wants to know how they can prove it and about the laws that statute bars prosecution for any of journeys (that they didn't take anyway) more than 6 months ago?

Did you give them access to your Trainline app and is there anything on there that might lead them to deduce these allegations?
Maybe you should just ask them how they came up with these journeys.
Also if you known the dates of the alleged offences you can work out where you were actually were (e.g. work/study/holiday/home in London etc). Things like your card purchases nd even your phone timeline might help jog your memory if you are having trouble.
 

Haywain

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If GWR have access to the OPs Trainline account, they will likely know that he lives in London and could take the view that journeys ‘from Totnes’ have actually been rather longer (and I don’t mean from Ivybridge). The OP should also be aware that he has also potentially committed an offence of giving a false address.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I gave what I think was good advice quite some way up this thread. You've now given us a bit more information, so I can refine it a bit.

As I understand it, the position is this:

- you made a train journey from Totnes to Exmouth
- there was a long queue for the ticket machine at Totnes and you would have missed your train by the time you got to the front of the queue, so you didn't get a ticket
- at some point during your journey (or at the end of it) GWR found that you didn't have a ticket, so they took your name and (your mum's) address
- they then wrote to you to ask you to pay £106 to settle the matter
- you didn't agree that this was an appropriate settlement and have written further to them (and I think they have written back to you)
- GWR have now said that they have done some more research and believe that you should actually pay rather more than £2000 to settle this matter.
- you intend to get back in touch with GWR on Monday (for anyone coming late to this thread: it started on a Friday, and I write today on Saturday, so Monday is the next working day).


If I've got this right, then please read on for my thoughts. If I've got it wrong then please say and let's see if there is anything to change in the advice we give.

The place to start is where you are in law with the Totnes to Exmouth journey. The relevant law is railway byelaw 18(1). What the byelaw says is this:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(source - https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/1058/railway-byelaws.pdf: but the same byelaws apply to GWR)

It's worth reading this really closely: the byelaw doesn't say anything about not intending to pay the right fare: it just says that the traveller must have a valid ticket with them.

In your case, I think you accept that you didn't have a ticket when you got on the train at Totnes. You could have got a ticket at Totnes but didn't, so you have broken the byelaw. If GWR take you to court, you will be found guilty and will have to pay a fine, plus compensation (the train fare that wasn't paid), plus court costs, plus (possibly) prosecution costs. Realistically, this will come to more than £106.

You'll see that I don't say anything about whether the law is right or whether this is fair. And that's because it doesn't matter: the law is the law, and you are expected to abide by it. If you think that the law is wrong then you probably need to take it up with your MP - but that won't change anything in time for you not to lose this case at court. I know that this sounds harsh, but that's how things are.

So to summarise, if GWR end up taking you to court, you will lose and they will win. That means that you are not in a strong position to negotiate with them. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't negotiate - but that you may not be able to close this matter off for no more than the train fare.

When I last wrote, I suggested that the threat of £2,000 was mainly a tactic from GWR to get you to agree over the £106. I still think that, and (if I read the thread correctly before) one of the pieces that you have deleted said something about the £2,000 offer being open until some time in late February. So you do have a little time to negotiate, and even if I'm wrong about the £2,000 being tactical then if you're in touch with the railway on Monday (at the beginning of February) you will still have time to try another approach.

So this is my suggestion for what you should say to GWR on Monday:

- you should explain that having talked to people who know about these things (i.e. this forum) you now realise that you were wrong to travel from Totnes without buying a ticket
- now that you know that you were wrong, you will never do this again. You are also very sorry for all the inconvenience you have caused GWR
- so in the circumstances you wonder if it would be possible to settle for the £106 previously quoted

When you do this (whether you write, email or phone) you need to be very polite, and very apologetic. As I say, you are not in a strong position because if GWR take you to court they will win, and you need to try and prove to them that you won't make the same mistake again.

With a bit of luck, at this point GWR will agree: you will have to pay them the £106 but that will be the end of the matter. But what if they don't agree? At that point (and not before)
- go on to mention the alleged twenty journeys.
- Make it clear that you disagree with this as you have never made the journeys in question
- ask for details of the journeys that GWR think you made, as you will be producing evidence that you did not make the journeys

Again, you should continue being polite and apologetic. Remember that GWR can still take you to court and will win. But you need to show that if GWR want anything more than the £106 they will have to meet all the requirements of the law - and that includes them proving, beyond all reasonable doubt, that you made those journeys without the right tickets.

Again, I would hope that at this point GWR will agree to settle for £106. If they don't, insist on them providing details of the journeys that they allege you haven't paid for. At that point you will need to look at each alleged journey and see what evidence you can find to show that GWR are wrong. We may be able to help with how you should do this, so if necessary ask us again.

In short - I don't see any way that you can resolve this without paying less than £106. But by being polite and apologetic to GWR, and making sure that they know that you won't make the same mistake again, I hope that GWR will agree to that settlement.
 

londiscape

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If GWR have access to the OPs Trainline account, they will likely know that he lives in London and could take the view that journeys ‘from Totnes’ have actually been rather longer (and I don’t mean from Ivybridge). The OP should also be aware that he has also potentially committed an offence of giving a false address.

The OP has not given a false address - he has given the address where he is currently able to be contacted, therefore no offence committed. Likely would have been much worse if he gave the "registered" address where post will be piling up on the doormat until national house arrest is lifted.
 

father_jack

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Just to throw something into the mix ( or should I say mess !) I think the "not able to book on Trainline" stems from the Totnes to Exeter St Davids leg being Cross Country and on their trains (despite running round full of fresh air) the reservation system won't/wouldn't let you book at all without a reservation, particularly if the alleged offence was earlier in the pandemic.

Still, there's lots that doesn't make sense here due to the dearth of shall we say, honesty/frankness from the OP.
 

Vespa

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If GWR have access to the OPs Trainline account, they will likely know that he lives in London and could take the view that journeys ‘from Totnes’ have actually been rather longer (and I don’t mean from Ivybridge). The OP should also be aware that he has also potentially committed an offence of giving a false address.
That is an interesting question.
Can TOC have access to your train line app and ordering history, when you sign up, is it in the T&C that TOC can have access to your train line app if not, we have a GDPR issue in addition to the 6 month statute limitations.

If the OP have been using GWR app, would GWR have access to journey history, he however haven't mentioned using it.

I am curious as to how GWR has arrived at the figure they have on tickets more than 6 months ago.

It could well be he has been caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare of GWR admin workings, which May require a solicitor with specialist railway law knowledge.

I have read through the thread and it's not very clear and in places, confusing.

My first question would be, what method did GWR use to arrive at that figure then you can work back from that.
 

Wallsendmag

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That is an interesting question.
Can TOC have access to your train line app and ordering history, when you sign up, is it in the T&C that TOC can have access to your train line app if not, we have a GDPR issue in addition to the 6 month statute limitations.

If the OP have been using GWR app, would GWR have access to journey history, he however haven't mentioned using it.

I am curious as to how GWR has arrived at the figure they have on tickets more than 6 months ago.

It could well be he has been caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare of GWR admin workings, which May require a solicitor with specialist railway law knowledge.

I have read through the thread and it's not very clear and in places, confusing.

My first question would be, what method did GWR use to arrive at that figure then you can work back from that.
I believe they can, I've seen it before somewhere.
 

alistairlees

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That is an interesting question.
Can TOC have access to your train line app and ordering history, when you sign up, is it in the T&C that TOC can have access to your train line app if not, we have a GDPR issue in addition to the 6 month statute limitations.

If the OP have been using GWR app, would GWR have access to journey history, he however haven't mentioned using it.

I am curious as to how GWR has arrived at the figure they have on tickets more than 6 months ago.

It could well be he has been caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare of GWR admin workings, which May require a solicitor with specialist railway law knowledge.

I have read through the thread and it's not very clear and in places, confusing.

My first question would be, what method did GWR use to arrive at that figure then you can work back from that.
Where fare evasion is suspected then it is possible to share relevant information. There is a gdpr compliant process to follow for this. No gdpr breach will have been committed and this is not an avenue to pursue.
 
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