GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[37424]

769's seem OK but am inclined to think aren't suitable stock for Cardiff to Penzance in terms of in board environment or performance on diesel between Bristol and Plymouth especially.

They don't necessarily have to be direct replacements

Don't forget that the SWR franchise agreement includes doing a 'feasibility study into potential bi-mode conversion of Class 158 and 159s ' - Just because franchise agreement says they should develop a proposal for it doesn't mean it will happen. Quite possible that (like with the SW bi-mode) suggestion the ROSCO has asked for it to be included.

You could be right but I do frankly find it puzzling why it would want to be even considered? What's the intention do they want to use them somewhere else?you could argue 150's are approaching life expiry while there will be other 158's potentially available in the next few years, if the idea is replacement doesn't strike me that using an expensive to run 40 year old train is the best long term option.

 

[Envoy]

'Modern Railways', May 2020, page 9:

"Industry sources also indicate DfT has asked GWR to present proposals for the replacement of class 150 and 158 sets that operate in the West Of England and to develop a proposal for the conversion of additional 2+4 formation HSTs"

Surely spending money on these old HST’s is wasteful? Would it not be better for the DfT to tell GWR to examine having a new fleet of trains - possibly the CAF 197’s that Transport for Wales have ordered for their longer distance routes - if they are any good? Ideally some of these should be bi-mode for working the Cardiff to Portsmouth service in order to make use of the wires between Cardiff & Bath. (The 165/6’s on this route are hardly ideal for such a long journey with the added fact that they have no through corridor).

[UK] Transport for Wales: meet the fleet

While none of them have emerged from the factories yet, and while the only preview we have of Transport for Wales’ future trains is in the form of artist’s impressions, the national transport authority has released the class numbers of the new fleet, so we can now call the trains by their names.

railcolornews.com

 

[Domh245]

You could be right but I do frankly find it puzzling why it would want to be even considered? What's the intention do they want to use them somewhere else?you could argue 150's are approaching life expiry while there will be other 158's potentially available in the next few years, if the idea is replacement doesn't strike me that using an expensive to run 40 year old train is the best long term option.

Like you say, there's a need for the 158s, either to replace the 150s internally, or at other franchises such as Northern (or both!) and it's good practice to develop a proposal to give you options. Of course, when it says that each vehicle will take several tens of thousands to convert, take several years to be converted, and then cost an arm and a leg to run, it doesn't have to be acted upon, and I'd be amazed if it does. Equally the DfT could decide that the cost of conversion and additional running costs are worth it, but it's unlikely and depends on how much the value the freed up stock

 

[Energy]

possibly the CAF 769’s that Transport for Wales have ordered

CAF 769s? TfW have ordered 769s but they aren't made by CAF, they ordered CAFs but they are 197s, similar to the 196s for WMR. The new build trimode/bimodes which TfW also ordered are Stadler flirts

 

[37424]

CAF 769s? TfW have ordered 769s but they aren't made by CAF, they ordered CAFs but they are 197s, similar to the 196s for WMR. The new build trimode/bimodes which TfW also ordered are Stadler flirts

Yes I think the poster meant 197's.

 

[57Tonic]

There has been some coach swapping at Long Rock this week. GW93 is spare and has 48231,481332. TGS still same.

Sorry but I'm a bit confused by these numbers can you explain what 48231 & 481332 are?, it may be down to Lockdown Brain freeze

 

[Ashley Hill]

49113 - 44008

Good to see Penyghent back in service (if you know you know)

 

[Ashley Hill]

'Modern Railways', May 2020, page 9:

"Industry sources also indicate DfT has asked GWR to present proposals for the replacement of class 150 and 158 sets that operate in the West Of England and to develop a proposal for the conversion of additional 2+4 formation HSTs"

Interesting,Castles to Exmouth,Gunnislake and Looe etc....?

 

[37424]

Interesting,Castles to Exmouth,Gunnislake and Looe etc....?

Yes I think that's unlikely probably more realistic proposal is to only partially replace the 150's or there is a shuffle around to allow 165's to work the Cornish branches assuming route clearance of course.

 

[fgwrich]

Sorry but I'm a bit confused by these numbers can you explain what 48231 & 481332 are?, it may be down to Lockdown Brain freeze

I think there's been some confusion in numbers there - either way they will be the refurbished Mk3 TS's, possibly 48132 & 48133?

Good to see Penyghent back in service (if you know you know)

I do indeed, I was quite pleased when the TCs arrived with FGW

Interesting,Castles to Exmouth,Gunnislake and Looe etc....?

As above, I highly doubt any of those will be cleared for anything more than a 150 really, But I can and do believe there will be more sets converted. If anything the current winter has shown how short of units Great Western actually are (Turbo to Plymouth, 158s covering on the Falmouth and St Ives branches), a predictable situation I could see from a few years back. The DFT proposals will probably be more to keep the units on the branches and HSTs sets on the mainline services.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I found the request to develop the proposal interesting; but it is clear from the 'Modern Railways' summary of the deal with First Group for the GWR that DfT was clearly expecting passenger growth to continue for the same article talks about 10 class 150/2s being retained and class 165/6 DMUs receiving trailers from 365s/465s if the Chiltern 'HyDrive' hybrid trial is successful - it takes about "some or all" being converted - and then 2-car sets having one trailer and 3-car sets having two. It also states that the 165s/166s will be refreshed internally "with improved interiors better suited for long distance services."

It's about 18 months since I was last in Devon, so I'm not familiar with current loadings, etc. But it seems to me that there is a need for "suburban" sets for services such as Exmouth - Paignton, and "long distance" sets for those operating eastwards to Exeter and beyond from Penzance or Plymouth. So if 165s/166s are being upgraded for longer distance services, where will they be used and where will extra 2+4 HSTs be used as well?

 

[Energy]

I found the request to develop the proposal interesting; but it is clear from the 'Modern Railways' summary of the deal with First Group for the GWR that DfT was clearly expecting passenger growth to continue for the same article talks about 10 class 150/2s being retained and class 165/6 DMUs receiving trailers from 365s/465s if the Chiltern 'HyDrive' hybrid trial is successful - it takes about "some or all" being converted - and then 2-car sets having one trailer and 3-car sets having two. It also states that the 165s/166s will be refreshed internally "with improved interiors better suited for long distance services."

It's about 18 months since I was last in Devon, so I'm not familiar with current loadings, etc. But it seems to me that there is a need for "suburban" sets for services such as Exmouth - Paignton, and "long distance" sets for those operating eastwards to Exeter and beyond from Penzance or Plymouth. So if 165s/166s are being upgraded for longer distance services, where will they be used and where will extra 2+4 HSTs be used as well?

See this thread.

 

[devonexpress]

I found the request to develop the proposal interesting; but it is clear from the 'Modern Railways' summary of the deal with First Group for the GWR that DfT was clearly expecting passenger growth to continue for the same article talks about 10 class 150/2s being retained and class 165/6 DMUs receiving trailers from 365s/465s if the Chiltern 'HyDrive' hybrid trial is successful - it takes about "some or all" being converted - and then 2-car sets having one trailer and 3-car sets having two. It also states that the 165s/166s will be refreshed internally "with improved interiors better suited for long distance services."

It's about 18 months since I was last in Devon, so I'm not familiar with current loadings, etc. But it seems to me that there is a need for "suburban" sets for services such as Exmouth - Paignton, and "long distance" sets for those operating eastwards to Exeter and beyond from Penzance or Plymouth. So if 165s/166s are being upgraded for longer distance services, where will they be used and where will extra 2+4 HSTs be used as well?

Don't forget that since 2019 it's been a requirement of the franchise to have 4 coaches in the peak time between Exmouth & Paignton. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea is that more Castle sets come in to take over Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance workings, freeing up the 158s to take over some 150s, those 150's then replacing the 143's and any spare units going to Northern.

 

[37424]

Don't forget that since 2019 it's been a requirement of the franchise to have 4 coaches in the peak time between Exmouth & Paignton. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea is that more Castle sets come in to take over Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance workings, freeing up the 158s to take over some 150s, those 150's then replacing the 143's and any spare units going to Northern.

I think 143's are already taken care of in current cascade plans and everything that's supposed to go Northern now has gone.

Looks like the idea is to have more Castles and increased length 165/166 to potentially get rid of 150 and 158 whether that can or will be achieved remains to be seen. As you say presumably increased Castles would take over all the services running on the mainline between Cardiff/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance and maybe the longer branches as well. The 5 Car 166's would be presumably take over the Portsmouth workings freeing up more 2 Car 165 some of which may also become 3 car to fill the remaining gaps.

Strikes me biting the bullet and ordering some new DMU's might be a better option. The 165/166 are dependent on the success of this new hybrid drive and digging up spare 365/465 trailer units which are not even the same carriage length as the turbo units, while converting expensive to run 40 year old trains with considerable conversion costs to replace 30 year old 158's doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The idea of creating more GTi sets is to ensure the cl.143 sets can be retired in Dec 2019 because, without the 769 cascade happening until the end of the year and 150001/2 going, GWR need 2 or 3 more to make that happen. They then can be put back into the mix for the additional services that DA3 will create.

It also keeps a few jobs going at Wabtec for a bit longer.

The possibility of lengthening Turbos doesn't come into this equation - that is something different and will affect the future of the 150/158 stock within the franchise.

 

[37424]

The idea of creating more GTi sets is to ensure the cl.143 sets can be retired in Dec 2019 because, without the 769 cascade happening until the end of the year and 150001/2 going, GWR need 2 or 3 more to make that happen. They then can be put back into the mix for the additional services that DA3 will create.

It also keeps a few jobs going at Wabtec for a bit longer.

The possibility of lengthening Turbos doesn't come into this equation - that is something different and will affect the future of the 150/158 stock within the franchise.

Ok fair enough I assume you mean Dec 2020.

 

[Envoy]

Yes I think the poster meant 197's.

Yes, I did. Sorry for the error.

 

[37424]

I guess it being a direct award new rolling stock doesn't tend happen for these short term thing's anyway I guess building a few more Castle HST's makes more sense than perhaps the original perception of building a whole load more of these trains.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Strikes me biting the bullet and ordering some new DMU's might be a better option. The 165/166 are dependent on the success of this new hybrid drive and digging up spare 365/465 trailer units which are not even the same carriage length as the turbo units, while converting expensive to run 40 year old trains with considerable conversion costs to replace 30 year old 158's doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

With additional HST GTi being talked about, along with all sorts of re-engineering projects like 769 and these 165/6, one conclusion is that the industry is saying that new DMUs are almost in-investible because of Net Zero.

Can see why the GTIs would be a popular choice that might get people out of their cars whereas 16x give a dreadful customer experience, like a mobile doctor's waiting room built with the powertrain from a vintage tractor

 

[37424]

With additional HST GTi being talked about, along with all sorts of re-engineering projects like 769 and these 165/6, one conclusion is that the industry is saying that new DMUs are almost in-investible because of Net Zero.

Can see why the GTIs would be a popular choice that might get people out of their cars whereas 16x give a dreadful customer experience, like a mobile doctor's waiting room built with the powertrain from a vintage tractor

I think any future new orders should be Bi-mode Electric/Diesel at least although the CAF DMU's are supposed to be fairly cheap so that's an obvious attraction.

I'm sure the Castle HST's are a popular choice from a customer viewpoint, but the option of building more seems to be according to 'Clarence Yard' a quick way to ensure 143's are removed although using the term quick with Wabtec involved might be debatable. Given the direct award is until 2023 at least I guess these HST's are likely to be around for some time.

 

[Energy]

Can see why the GTIs would be a popular choice that might get people out of their cars whereas 16x give a dreadful customer experience

The 16x are meant to be getting refurbished with 2+2 seating. A unit like them can be nice to travel in, see Chiltern's 168s.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Ok fair enough I assume you mean Dec 2020.

Yes, the years are rolling by too quickly as I get older!

The number of extra sets being proposed is quite small - they are very expensive to convert and very expensive to run.

 

[Energy]

they are very expensive to convert and very expensive to run.

With EMR and TfW releasing 158s fairly soon I think getting them will be likely considering the high cost to run short HSTs. Looking at EMR mainly, the first 196 has apparently arrived at the depot so hopefully the 170s will start to go to EMR fairly soon.

Looking at how long Wabtec are taking the 158s may be released before any more would be converted

 

[Clarence Yard]

No - the GTi sets would appear at the end of the year. The 158 stock won't become available for a long time yet but there are about a dozen EMR sets that would prove very suitable for GWR. The rest and the TFW sets less so.

 

[Domh245]

With EMR and TfW releasing 158s fairly soon I think getting them will be likely considering the high cost to run short HSTs. Looking at EMR mainly, the first 196 has apparently arrived at the depot so hopefully the 170s will start to go to EMR fairly soon.

Looking at how long Wabtec are taking the 158s may be released before any more would be converted

EMR already have their first 170s from Scotrail as well, currently 2 units at Crofton undergoing refurbishment so the first couple of 158s could be released in the not too distant future

 

[43096]

No - the GTi sets would appear at the end of the year. The 158 stock won't become available for a long time yet but there are about a dozen EMR sets that would prove very suitable for GWR. The rest and the TFW sets less so.

I assume that's the 14 Cummins 350hp sets which are of use over the 8 Perkins (same for TfW) and 4 Cummins 400hp units. Might be an idea to swap the Cummins 400hp units with 350hp version at SWR given the commonality with the 159/0s.

 

[fgwrich]

I assume that's the 14 Cummins 350hp sets which are of use over the 8 Perkins (same for TfW) and 4 Cummins 400hp units. Might be an idea to swap the Cummins 400hp units with 350hp version at SWR given the commonality with the 159/0s.

I did think that too, as it would also allow SWR to have a fleet with a more modern interior. However I can't see any of this happening, and it would only result in a like for like swap of the 2 car units.

That said, from a spares point of view, would the Perkins powered units not be just as good, having a shared engine with the Turbo fleet?

 

[DannyMich2018]

With EMR and TfW releasing 158s fairly soon I think getting them will be likely considering the high cost to run short HSTs. Looking at EMR mainly, the first 196 has apparently arrived at the depot so hopefully the 170s will start to go to EMR fairly soon.

Looking at how long Wabtec are taking the 158s may be released before any more would be converted

To be fair to Wabtec they've speeded up in delivery of the sets, especially the Scotrail ones now. Yes just over two years to deliver 11 sets is not quick but other stuff is delayed too, the Class 769s for Northern were supposed to start entering service in May 2018..TFW Class 230s still no entry........and also not only with what's happening at the minute don't expect the 196s in service till 2021, remember it took just over a year to get approval for the Northern Class 195s to enter service from first delivery and that was the Pre-Covid 19 world then.

 

[37424]

To be fair to Wabtec they've speeded up in delivery of the sets, especially the Scotrail ones now. Yes just over two years to deliver 11 sets is not quick but other stuff is delayed too, the Class 769s for Northern were supposed to start entering service in May 2018..TFW Class 230s still no entry........and also not only with what's happening at the minute don't expect the 196s in service till 2021, remember it took just over a year to get approval for the Northern Class 195s to enter service from first delivery and that was the Pre-Covid 19 world then.

Yes 2 or 3 extra units didn't ought to be such a big deal, and should be somewhat easier to do than the Scotrail sets with much less of a refurb and 2 doors less to do per train.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Well, I'm all for more converted HST's. I mentioned earlier that I counted the amount of seats in a 2-car GWR 158 and a 4-coach HST in my Guide to Services - 252 (2 x 4-formed 4-coach 158 and 305 in a Castle HST). 53 more seats per train sounds excellent!

I'm interested to know why the DfT is potentially letting GWR have more converted HST's than XC? Probably because of the depot space.

As much as I like the rather reliable old Class 150's, I bet GWR have had so much positive feedback from passengers on the short HST's saying these are much better than the trains previously on here (previous being the 150's).

I'm also interested to know why the DfT wants units on branch line routes - Class 158's were built for longer-distance express routes and are suited to the routes the Castle HST's are used on.