GWR PAYG

[Alex365Dash]

This is of course entirely GWR's fault. I have provided the information requested, and also said that if a refund is not made within a week I will initiate a charge back with my bank.

In all honesty, I doubt email will be a fast enough method considering the timeframes you’re working with.

I had a similar issue with GTR and an abandoned journey not being able to tap out (I have since worked out I need to tap out at a different validator to register a same station exit!) and it couldn’t be removed through the website - this was resolved fairly quickly after I gave them a ring. It might be worth doing the same with GWR?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I did consider phoning but an 0350 number will be charged and I did not wish to increase my losses. Also complaining in writing has the following advantages:

1. You can set your case out clearly, the way you want it.
2. You have a record of what you wrote.
3. No on hold time listening to music you do not like and repeated assurances that someone will be with you shortly.
4. Demonstrating that you can read and write makes companies take you seriously.

The 0350 number was listed with the email as a way to obtain help and it turned out that the help department could not help, but merely passed me to the complaint department. I will keep the phone option under review, thank you for the reminder.

SML to SVB return - At seat ticket purchase.

I made a return journey from SML to SVB yesterday, buying my tickets on the train in the old way. (£1.30) Very convenient. Naturally I checked the ticket very carefully to make sure that it was not a child ticket. (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/incorrect-ticket-issued-free-excess.238869/#post-5907963) The initial impetus to try PAYG was, I now remember, to avoid being sold child tickets and threatened with trouble at Temple Meads.

On returning home I checked the ticket again to make sure that it could make no further demands. It seems to be safe, although I did pay by credit card so they do have my card details. That was one of the larger questions in my mind when obtaining the PAYG card, was it really sensible to grant a continuous credit authority, explicitly with £25 penalties, for the occasional 25 p saving on trips to SVB? Experience says no, it was not sensible. Perhaps cash would be safer.

The belief that you will receive more than one email before being charged a penalty appears to be wrong. There were no emails in relation to this incomplete journey, the two that began this sorry saga related to the two journeys that have been completed and charged.

Attempts to correct

What I did try to do to correct the third journey loose tap was to enter a tap out at SML, thinking that as I had been charged correctly for the return to Weston just nullifying the loose end would suffice, even if it left a slightly odd record. I found that this could not be done. In other words the supposed process of not travelling after tapping in, which is said to involve tapping out at the same place, cannot be reproduced, possibly it does not work on the ground. This could be a problem if you do nullify by tapping out at origin, and the tap out is lost.

Perhaps if I had entered the tap out at WSM manually with the time by then shown on the touch the GWR PAYG system would have amalgamated the two and reduced the day's journeys to the correct pair? Something similar did happen with the open jaw trip to CDU and Yate, where the spurious CDU to Yate journey disappeared when the SML taps were finally registered.

System Logic - Failure to use in-out sequence logic.

The system should never have got into the complete or pay £25 mode, because by recognising the WSM tap out as a tap out it must have known that there had been a tap in earlier in the day. It should have gone into autofill, or into a 'Waiting for Info' mode, and sent appropriate information messages, not instructions and threats.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Mon Oct 3 2023

The last email from GWR complaints was on 25 Sept, saying that "I am looking into your claim and I will get back in touch with a full response as soon as I can." (Full text below.) In the meantime I have waited to see what would happen, and have received no further emails. Today I looked at my credit card account and found that £25 was credited on 27 Sept. My journey history is now as shown in the attachment, still showing the GBP25 penalty fare journey, but with a 'goodwill adjustment' of £25. Presumably that means that altering manual time records is not possible, or that just making a credit was the fastest way for the complaints department to deal with it.

Glancing at the 'Your bookings' section would look as if another £25 had been charged, as it does not show any distinction between credits and debits in the table, you must click the link to see a statement that a refund has been made.

Last message from GWR, on 25 Sept.
"
Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway in response to my email and providing additional information.

I am looking into your claim and I will get back in touch with a full response as soon as I can.

Please feel free to reply to this email if you would like to provide any additional information. Otherwise, you do not need to do anything else.

Thank you for contacting us at Great Western Railway."

Travel history status at 1 Oct.




The politest description that comes to mind for the whole PAYG system is 'Tatty'


There is still the delay repay to deal with, I shall look into that.

 

[sor]

I did consider phoning but an 0350 number will be charged and I did not wish to increase my losses.

Worth clarifying that 03xx numbers are charged at the same rate as a call to a landline. That may still cost some money if you don't have inclusive minutes in your phone plan, but no more so than your usual phone calls.

 

[twitch7443]

I'm quite close to just giving up with PAYG now. I've had an "incomplete" journey appear despite tapping in and it does not let me correct this issue. I've emailed GWR and refuse to pay the £25 "fine" despite the fact that their frankly s*** system cannot detect a tap in on one day, but then the next day detects it, on the same barriers when making the EXACT same journey. For anyone travelling from Chippenham using PAYG I would be careful as the only barriers that seem to report correctly/consistently are the main station entrance - not useful as there are journeys that occur once the staff have left and locked up the main building.

I was told to use the national rail smartcard app to "ammend" the journey but there's quite a clear lack of knowledge from GWR employees about PAYG, obviously not their fault it's a poor system and the fact they advertise this on local services in the area just shocks me.

Thankfully the card linked is not my main account and will have no funds until GWR fixes it - I feel like something has been updated because I have used the service heavily in the last few months and only now are issues getting worse.

 

[lachlan]

I'm quite close to just giving up with PAYG now. I've had an "incomplete" journey appear despite tapping in and it does not let me correct this issue. I've emailed GWR and refuse to pay the £25 "fine" despite the fact that their frankly s*** system cannot detect a tap in on one day, but then the next day detects it, on the same barriers when making the EXACT same journey. For anyone travelling from Chippenham using PAYG I would be careful as the only barriers that seem to report correctly/consistently are the main station entrance - not useful as there are journeys that occur once the staff have left and locked up the main building.

I was told to use the national rail smartcard app to "ammend" the journey but there's quite a clear lack of knowledge from GWR employees about PAYG, obviously not their fault it's a poor system and the fact they advertise this on local services in the area just shocks me.

Thankfully the card linked is not my main account and will have no funds until GWR fixes it - I feel like something has been updated because I have used the service heavily in the last few months and only now are issues getting worse.

I’ve been using Chippenham and haven’t had any problems - maybe you’re tapping on the turnstile in the wrong direction? As in, even if they’re open I check I’m going through the correct gate as usually one has a red light and one is green

 

[twitch7443]

I've definitely been going through the right gatelines. It's displayed "enter" while tapping in on the gateline display so I'm a little confused. All gatelines at chippenham were working for me for several months so it's just an odd bug

 

[dvboy]

I did consider phoning but an 0350 number will be charged and I did not wish to increase my losses.

Worth clarifying that 03xx numbers are charged at the same rate as a call to a landline. That may still cost some money if you don't have inclusive minutes in your phone plan, but no more so than your usual phone calls.

There are no allocated numbers in the 0350 range. It may be a typo?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

There are no allocated numbers in the 0350 range. It may be a typo?

A typo on my part, it is an 0345 number, which believe are charged.

 

[FenMan]

A typo on my part, it is an 0345 number, which believe are charged.

OFCOM is clear on this:-

Calls to 03 numbers cost no more than a national rate call to an 01 or 02 number and must count towards any inclusive minutes in the same way as 01 and 02 calls ...

 

[StarCrossing]

Does anyone know what's been going on this week? I haven't been able to tap in or out at Bristol Temple Meads, and staff have told me there's a nationwide issue with ticket gates, however I have been able to tap in and out at Bristol Parkway.

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone know what's been going on this week? I haven't been able to tap in or out at Bristol Temple Meads, and staff have told me there's a nationwide issue with ticket gates, however I have been able to tap in and out at Bristol Parkway.

Certainly not nationwide as I've used KeyGo this afternoon.

 

[lachlan]

Does anyone know what's been going on this week? I haven't been able to tap in or out at Bristol Temple Meads, and staff have told me there's a nationwide issue with ticket gates, however I have been able to tap in and out at Bristol Parkway.

Just logged in to my PAYG account and it does appear my journeys this week were "auto completed".

For whatever reason also rather than charge me each night they've charged me for three days worth of journeys in one go

The emails still say I was charged £0 every time

 

[plymothian]

Does anyone know what's been going on this week? I haven't been able to tap in or out at Bristol Temple Meads, and staff have told me there's a nationwide issue with ticket gates, however I have been able to tap in and out at Bristol Parkway.

There's an issue of gatelines not clearing out ITSO transactions, so they build up until the transaction store is full and cannot process any more.

 

[StarCrossing]

Thanks folks. They also seem to have correctly filled in the blanks in my record for Monday and Tuesday and charged me the correct amount.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

********

Resuming my part of the PAYG story:

231019 DELAY REPAY

Last weekend I got round to applying for the delay repay registering for the necessary separate GWR account, almost damaging the browser stored password for my existing account in the process. Why do I need a separate account for delay repay?

At which point I discovered that I was just over the 28 day limit. However, help was at hand, Higher Authority have taken an interest and I received the following by email:

FROM GWR HIGHER AUTHORITY:

"I can see your online account was created with £25.00 to correct the issue with the tap in. With regard to your return journey, I am sorry to hear you were delayed when travelling from Weston super Mare to Seamills on our 16:10 service. Usually, the quickest way to get your compensation is to claim via our dedicated Delay Repay webform here https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/refunds-and-compensation/delay-repay



On this occasion I am more than happy to process this claim for you, you are entitled to £1.31 in compensation. We have partnered with Payit to make it quick and easy to send money straight to your bank account. Payit is provided by NatWest, but the great news is you do not have to be a NatWest customer to use it.



To initiate the payment, we will send you a separate email within the next 2 working days. The email will come from [email protected] so please keep an eye out. Once you click on the link to start the process, you will be asked to provide your unique GWR Reference Number which can be found at the top of this email. For added security, you will also be asked to enter a SMS verification code which will be sent to your mobile number which we have on file.



The link to start the payment process will expire after 30 days of the email being sent. We advise that you allow 3-5 minutes to complete the steps. Upon completing the process, you will receive the money in your account almost instantly but it can sometimes take up to two hours.



You can find out more information about Payit here: www.gwr.com/payit. "


I was disappointed to note that because PAYG splits a return journey into two singles the Delay Repay is only 25 % of the single fare, not the return. This presumably has the adverse effect that where PAYG splits a single into two halves, for example at Yate, Delay Repay will apply not to the whole journey, but to half of it.

Nevertheless, it is the thought that counts, so on receiving the Payit email today I started the Payit process, checking that the web address in the link did appear for Natwest bank. On entering my bank details and getting in I found that the access granted to your account is almost complete, see the attached screen shot. At this point I decided to back out and wrote thus to GWR:

"Dear X,

Thank you for pursuing this matter.

I have received the email and started the Payit process, which seems unnecessarily complicated for a simple payment, which could have been done by a credit to my PAYG account.

As advised by all banks I was very wary of providing bank login details to a link provided in an email, but continued after examining the web address carefully. I stopped the process on discovering what information connection to Payit provides to the Payit service. It may be a Natwest service, but whatever it is, there does not seem to be any need for complete access to my bank account, as described in the attached screen shot, when simply asking for the account name, number and sort code would have sufficed. That is all that is required to set up a bank transfer from a bank account, and banks do now check the correctness of transfer addresses entered by customers.

Like almost every part of the PAYG process, this refund process does not stand even the slightest critical examination.

Seeking information using the Payit link in your email I discovered that, like other GWR links, it fails with the Safari browser.

Yours sincerely,

Sleepy_Hollow"

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I've been having issues with keygo, missing taps at northbound platform card reader at littlehaven. Everytime it says journey started or journey ended on the card reader, but the taps aren't recorded. Its not just my keygo, since when I've travelled with others also on keygo, their taps weren't recorded either at the same card reader. I've had no problems with the card reader on the south bound platform however, so I'm considering always using the card reader on south bound platform to start or end journeys.

 

[Haywain]

I've been having issues with keygo, missing taps at northbound platform card reader at littlehaven. Everytime it says journey started or journey ended on the card reader, but the taps aren't recorded. Its not just my keygo, since when I've travelled with others also on keygo, their taps weren't recorded either at the same card reader. I've had no problems with the card reader on the south bound platform however, so I'm considering always using the card reader on south bound platform to start or end journeys.

Have you told GTR about this?

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Have you told GTR about this?

Yes, but yet to hear back from them.

 

[twitch7443]

After almost an entire month GWR have finally replied to me and refunded the £25 (minus the cost for the journey taken) for the "missed" tap-in.
I was told that the system had actually registered the tap-in and out on my account but the journey itself hadn't been registered - so as I had expected this was a technical error, one which I hope GWR solves as waiting an entire month for a refund would put most people off using PAYG or GWR as a whole.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Bringing the operational part of my story to a conclusion. Higher Authority (HA) replied promptly with reassurance, and explanation as below: (My italics & bolding)

"Thank you for your follow up email, I appreciate your concerns.

To confirm, Payit only require the Account Name, Account Number and Account Sort Code to make the payment. This has not changed and is not used for any other purpose.

However, following a recent update, banks have been mandated to make clearer what information is shared through Open Banking. As Payit uses the same connection channels as open banking between banks, customers are presented with the full standard details which would usually be shared for this type of connection. This would have been the information presented to you via your bank account. Payit do not control what each bank displays within their own application but do make clear via the claim process on their own pages.

To help alleviate any fears, I can confirm Payit are reviewing the wording used during the payout claim journey to make this clearer, and we will be doing the same with our customer facing information regarding Payit to ensure customers are comfortable with the payment process.

If you would prefer, I can cancel the payment and issue an e-voucher code as an alternative. The e-voucher will be valid for a year and can be used towards a future ticket purchase made via your online account with us.

Thank you once again for taking the time to raise these concerns, and for the opportunity to reassure you of the safety of your data, I look forward to hearing from you again soon."

Thus reassured, and not wishing to investigate how e-voucher codes work just now I thanked HA for the information and went ahead with the Payit refund leaving HA to ponder the wonders of a system that lead to a correctly tapped journey being charged a £25 penalty fare.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems that GWR is rolling out a smartcard in Cornwall from 15th November, initially west Cornwall, but being extended to Plymouth

Customers will soon be able to tap in and tap out of stations across West Cornwall – with a new time-saving smartcard guaranteeing the best value fares.
Great Western Railway has teamed up with Cornwall Council to launch the pay-as-you-go touch smartcard, rolling payments and tickets into one.
Register now and be ready to use your new Cornwall pay-as-you-go card as soon as the new scheme starts on 15 November
Once a customer has registered for the smartcard and linked it to their bank account, they’ll be able to tap in out and tap out on yellow card readers at stations between Penzance and Par.

The introduction of the new card, only the second pay-as-you-go scheme on the GWR network, coincides with Network Rail’s multi-million-pound investment programme in Cornwall, replacing signalling equipment with brand-new, modern technology, and puts the county at the forefront of new digital fares technology.

Plans to extend to the rest of Cornwall through to Plymouth were included in Cornwall Council’s successful bid to the Government’s Levelling Up programme for the Mid Cornwall Metro and will follow as part of that programme.

Sign up for a smarter way to travel across West Cornwall

Customers will soon be able to tap in and tap out of stations across West Cornwall – with a new time-saving smartcard guaranteeing the best value fares.

news.gwr.com

Effectively will have 3 unconnected pay-as-you-go areas (London suburbs, Bristol area, Cornwall) but no network wide approach

 

[Alex365Dash]

Effectively will have 3 unconnected pay-as-you-go areas (London suburbs, Bristol area, Cornwall) but no network wide approach

I’d speculate that GWR (and frankly any intercity operator) is too big to have a network-wide approach.

SWR’s area from London to Exeter is far enough apart that the highest fare that you’ll pay on Tap2Go is £85.20 SDS (Anytime Day Single, SWR’s incomplete journey charge is £25), GTR from Warblington to Bedford is £73.50 SDS (GTR’s incomplete journey charge is £50) and those are bad enough!

If a SDS from Penzance to London costs £164.50, how much should the GWR incomplete journey charge be?

 

[John R]

On the other hand, a requirement to have your railcard with you is a fairy straightforward way of ensuring you don’t lend it to someone else to use with a paper ticket?

Agree, and also anything that deviates from what is a nationwide requirement to carry your railcard if having a discounted ticket risks starts to introduce confusion. Much better to have a blanket rule.

 

[Towers]

I’d speculate that GWR (and frankly any intercity operator) is too big to have a network-wide approach.

SWR’s area from London to Exeter is far enough apart that the highest fare that you’ll pay on Tap2Go is £85.20 SDS (Anytime Day Single, SWR’s incomplete journey charge is £25), GTR from Warblington to Bedford is £73.50 SDS (GTR’s incomplete journey charge is £50) and those are bad enough!

If a SDS from Penzance to London costs £164.50, how much should the GWR incomplete journey charge be?

And this, of course, is why there could never be a singluar national contactless scheme.

 

[WelshBluebird]

At least it sounds like the actual physical smartcard will be the same one as they currently use in Bristol (based on the fact the details for ordering one are identical, and in no place do you have to select which area you want the card for). Until such schemes allow the use of actual contactless cards (which really should be sorted by now!), I think that is the best we can ask for due to what has been mentioned above about fares.

 

[sor]

Agree, and also anything that deviates from what is a nationwide requirement to carry your railcard if having a discounted ticket risks starts to introduce confusion. Much better to have a blanket rule.

But with the apparent desire to get away from physical railcards, it seems reasonable that a photographic smartcard could be a replacement solution. Far better than the requirement to use a shoddy phone app and ensure the phone has sufficient charge at all times. In the possible GB Railways utopia it could even work nationwide!

And this, of course, is why there could never be a singluar national contactless scheme.

or at least without a drastic simplification of the fares system. The Netherlands seems to manage.

At least it sounds like the actual physical smartcard will be the same one as they currently use in Bristol (based on the fact the details for ordering one are identical, and in no place do you have to select which area you want the card for). Until such schemes allow the use of actual contactless cards (which really should be sorted by now!), I think that is the best we can ask for due to what has been mentioned above about fares.

The other GWR page appears to clarify that this is the case - https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/smart-tickets/payg/cornwall - if you have an existing season ticket smartcard then you can add PAYG functionality to it through the website.

I am unsure why they decided to do west cornwall first (maybe there are more shorter journeys?) but I will definitely try it next time I'm going westwards from St Austell. Maybe I'll finally get use out of the card I've had for so long but couldn't use as a) I don't need a season ticket and b) not all ticket types seem to be available on ITSO

 

[Haywain]

The Netherlands seems to manage.

The Netherlands covers a much smaller area than Great Britain - it's more akin to the former Network South East area.

 

[mattdickinson]

The Netherlands covers a much smaller area than Great Britain - it's more akin to the former Network South East area.

The Danish solution is to set a flag on the card at TVMs for inter-regional journeys. The initial charge is 70 DKR (about £8) for local journeys and 600 DKR (about £70) for long distance journeys.

Sådan rejser du

www.rejsekort.dk

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Still using the card, the possible saving from the half price single outweighing the risks, although what a serious gambler would thing of risking £25 for a possible saving of 65p on a trip to Severn Beach, I do not know.

Using it for a definite single trip from WSM to SML this Monday I got into a situation where the advertised automatic delay repay notifications could have appeared. (See thread in Trip Reports: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-change-but-1-hr-late-100-delay-repay.261185/) however the usual uninformative 'we have charged you' email appeared promptly on the following day so I submitted a delay repay claim manually via the website, and received two emails confirming its approval and that the payment was on its way on the following day, so that delay repay appears to work with the details shown on the journey summary. No explicit interaction with the Payit scheme. I assume that is now set up.


I suspect that the automatic notifications are wishful thinking, I doubt if the system has any very accurate means of identifying associated trains and planned journey times, particularly in a case where a train terminating short means a change of train.