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GWR Shortage of Traincrew Weekend and During Week

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Deepgreen

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National Rail reports the disruption is due to a signalling fault between Reading and Wokingham. No mention of GWR staffing or rolling stock problems.

The explanation appears to be consistent, as SWT (who may or may not also have staffing and rolling stock problems) are also experiencing significant disruption to Reading - Waterloo services.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread ....

Earlier on today, we were being told locally that at least one train had been cancelled owing to a crew issue, while another was cancelled by a train fault. Now the issue is indeed the Wokingham signalling one (again!).
 
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the sniper

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Why is not working a Sunday for decades seen as a badge of honour? Given that it means that others are carrying the workload and it contributes to passengers being messed about by cancellations, I wouldn't shout about it personally. I'm as keen on my days off as the next person, but I'm not sure I could look myself in the mirror with that kind of work ethic.

(I personally work in an office before anyone asks.)

I don't think you appreciate how it works. There's absolutely no obligation to work Sundays where I am. As an office worker, if you're on a Monday to Friday week, do you work Saturdays and Sundays too even though they're not in your contracted hours? Wouldn't your employer achieve better results if you work the weekend too, wouldn't your customers/colleagues be better served by you all offering your services 7 days a week?

Where do you draw the line with 'others are carrying the workload and it contributes to passengers being messed about by cancellations'. If you worked on the railway would you consistently work 13 days, have one day off, then work another 13 days, before repeating over and over? That is the maximum you can do and is realistically the only way you can ensure that you've done all you can to 'carry the workload' and avoid cancellations for passengers. Going by your theory, any rest day you don't work, you're failing you're employer and the passengers.

People who work a lot of Sundays/Rest Days are normally just seen as money grabbers. I know because I'm one of them! It's normally with this in mind that those who don't work Sundays make the point that they'd rather have a life outside of work than be chasing the money. I don't blame them. If I had a secure future I wouldn't bother doing the amount I do, primarily because being there almost every day goes completely unappreciated by the TOC.
 

Parallel

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I don't think you appreciate how it works. There's absolutely no obligation to work Sundays where I am. As an office worker, if you're on a Monday to Friday week, do you work Saturdays and Sundays too even though they're not in your contracted hours? Wouldn't your employer achieve better results if you work the weekend too, wouldn't your customers/colleagues be better served by you all offering your services 7 days a week?

Where do you draw the line with 'others are carrying the workload and it contributes to passengers being messed about by cancellations'. If you worked on the railway would you consistently work 13 days, have one day off, then work another 13 days, before repeating over and over? That is the maximum you can do and is realistically the only way you can ensure that you've done all you can to 'carry the workload' and avoid cancellations for passengers. Going by your theory, any rest day you don't work, you're failing you're employer and the passengers.

People who work a lot of Sundays/Rest Days are normally just seen as money grabbers. I know because I'm one of them! It's normally with this in mind that those who don't work Sundays make the point that they'd rather have a life outside of work than be chasing the money. I don't blame them. If I had a secure future I wouldn't bother doing the amount I do, primarily because being there almost every day goes completely unappreciated by the TOC.

Coming from a retail environment myself, I find it tricky to understand the agreement with Sundays/Weekends on the railway. More or less everyone in retail on full time contracts will work many weekends as the business is trading and the service is needed. You get two days off a week but usually (from my experience) they're different each week. I don't really understand how the railway is much different (offers a service 7 days a week) but my guess is the way staff contracts are set out? Sundays are now a vital day for those commuting and leisure travellers.
 

richw

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Coming from a retail environment myself, I find it tricky to understand the agreement with Sundays/Weekends on the railway. More or less everyone in retail on full time contracts will work many weekends as the business is trading and the service is needed. You get two days off a week but usually (from my experience) they're different each week. I don't really understand how the railway is much different (offers a service 7 days a week) but my guess is the way staff contracts are set out? Sundays are now a vital day for those commuting and leisure travellers.

Interesting comments on retail.
The retail company i work for, we are on set days/hours every week so the retailer can avoid weekly scheduling and everyone knows when they are in.
Mine are Sunday, mon, tues, and Wed. 4 long days, I've 3 consecutive days off each week which works lovely!
 

Dai Corner

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Interesting comments on retail.
The retail company i work for, we are on set days/hours every week so the retailer can avoid weekly scheduling and everyone knows when they are in.
Mine are Sunday, mon, tues, and Wed. 4 long days, I've 3 consecutive days off each week which works lovely!

Yet a relative of mine who also worked in retail, in a large supermarket, found his shifts were all over the place. He left and got a warehouse job 8-4 Mon-Fri with optional overtime at busy times.

Passenger train operations are even more of a routine operation than retail so why do train crew not have similar work patterns to richw?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Do any of the links at the GWR depots have Sunday working as part of their normal duty hours?
 

Sprinter153

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There was a note about Sunday's staff shortage in this week's staff newsletter, to which most of us opined that nobody had bothered asking any of us on rest days if we wanted to work.
 
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Sprinter153

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Today has seen yet another day of serious disruption on the North Downs line with a combination of staff problems, train problems and signal issues. We were 'treated' to the rare sight of two successive passenger workings passing Betchworth within four minutes (the first non-stop, the second stopping).

The NDL continues to perform really badly, and it seems to be not only infrastructure constraints that are to blame.

There shouldn't be staff problems, they have more than enough conductors at Reading at the moment due to them having enough for the 3tph service.
 

Johncleesefan

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We tend to have a lot of shortage on Sundays as a majority of workers chuck their Sundays in, in favour of a day off. The rule is though if nobody's can cover this then you are still booked to work it. The problem is annual leave and sickness and the company doesn't have drivers sitting spare ready and willing as not many volunteer to work extra Sundays/rest days. Another issue is resources not having time to create a better contingency plan in times of shortages so often that driver who was spare has been sent to cover a small job and then a "big" job crops out at last minute.
I tend to stay savvy with resources myself as I am one of the "grabbers" first house etc and I help where I can but that is not me saying I begrudge those who don't work overtime, I envy them ??????
 

Sprinter153

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We tend to have a lot of shortage on Sundays as a majority of workers chuck their Sundays in, in favour of a day off. The rule is though if nobody's can cover this then you are still booked to work it.

For Guards, on LTV and West you need to find another member of staff to work your Sunday for you, if you're on an High Speed Services contract you can declare yourself not available for your Sunday up until 1159 on the preceding Wednesday, without organising a replacement.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I don't think you appreciate how it works. There's absolutely no obligation to work Sundays where I am. As an office worker, if you're on a Monday to Friday week, do you work Saturdays and Sundays too even though they're not in your contracted hours? Wouldn't your employer achieve better results if you work the weekend too, wouldn't your customers/colleagues be better served by you all offering your services 7 days a week?

Where do you draw the line with 'others are carrying the workload and it contributes to passengers being messed about by cancellations'. If you worked on the railway would you consistently work 13 days, have one day off, then work another 13 days, before repeating over and over? That is the maximum you can do and is realistically the only way you can ensure that you've done all you can to 'carry the workload' and avoid cancellations for passengers. Going by your theory, any rest day you don't work, you're failing you're employer and the passengers.

People who work a lot of Sundays/Rest Days are normally just seen as money grabbers. I know because I'm one of them! It's normally with this in mind that those who don't work Sundays make the point that they'd rather have a life outside of work than be chasing the money. I don't blame them. If I had a secure future I wouldn't bother doing the amount I do, primarily because being there almost every day goes completely unappreciated by the TOC.

A few points to answer here.

I'm on a salaried management contract with minimum hours. The expectation is that sufficient hours per week are worked to ensure everything gets done, with a minimum of 37 hours. When all goes well this equates to 5x 9-5 days per week. When **** is hitting the fan, weekends are worked (and many people in our offices have to do this, contrary to 'outside opinions' it might seem.) There is no paid overtime, and many people work at home to get things done. I can't think of anyone who walks away from the job if it isn't done, we have things called accountability and work-pride.

If you're telling me your contractual hours (presumably based on a 35hr, 4-day basic week, with 8h45 average turn length) results in each individual working 13/14 days consistently in order to cover the timetable, then I would love to see the numbers to back this up. If some people are having to do this, its because so many others are milking the system. This pretty much backs up my original argument. If more people pulled then there's less work for everyone overall.

Turning up and doing the normal day's work does not deserve special thanks or appreciation from the employer. That is what your pay packet is for. If you want a pat on the back, this is earned by going above and beyond.
 

Sprinter153

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If you're telling me your contractual hours (presumably based on a 35hr, 4-day basic week, with 8h45 average turn length) results in each individual working 13/14 days consistently in order to cover the timetable, then I would love to see the numbers to back this up. If some people are having to do this, its because so many others are milking the system.

Sorry, but if 'milking the system' is sticking to my contracted hours and no more (other than overtime resulting from service disruption or operational requirements, which is largely unavoidable) then I'll damn well milk away.

My contract says Sundays are outside the working week and I can make myself unavailable to work. I'll give my employer the basic courtesy of informing them in good time (usually 5 weeks ahead, when they appear on Genius Mobile, to give maximum time for Rosters to plan) but then my contractual obligation is done.

That's not selfish, that's not milking it, it's fulfilling my contractual entitlement. Just because you essentially have to do unlimited overtime if you have a heavy workload, doesn't mean everyone else has to too.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Sorry, but if 'milking the system' is sticking to my contracted hours and no more (other than overtime resulting from service disruption or operational requirements, which is largely unavoidable) then I'll damn well milk away.

My contract says Sundays are outside the working week and I can make myself unavailable to work. I'll give my employer the basic courtesy of informing them in good time (usually 5 weeks ahead, when they appear on Genius Mobile, to give maximum time for Rosters to plan) but then my contractual obligation is done.

That's not selfish, that's not milking it, it's fulfilling my contractual entitlement. Just because you essentially have to do unlimited overtime if you have a heavy workload, doesn't mean everyone else has to too.

I didn't use the word selfish, but I stand by my original point that avoiding working any Sundays - ever - and making it a badge of honour is taking the mick and shows an exceptional level of contempt for the travelling public.

If I stuck rigidly to my contracted hours and essential work didn't get done then I'd probably get fired. At the end of the day my job satisfaction is important to me, although it's the salary that pays my mortgage.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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A few points to answer here.

I'm on a salaried management contract with minimum hours. The expectation is that sufficient hours per week are worked to ensure everything gets done, with a minimum of 37 hours. When all goes well this equates to 5x 9-5 days per week. When **** is hitting the fan, weekends are worked (and many people in our offices have to do this, contrary to 'outside opinions' it might seem.) There is no paid overtime, and many people work at home to get things done. I can't think of anyone who walks away from the job if it isn't done, we have things called accountability and work-pride.

If you're telling me your contractual hours (presumably based on a 35hr, 4-day basic week, with 8h45 average turn length) results in each individual working 13/14 days consistently in order to cover the timetable, then I would love to see the numbers to back this up. If some people are having to do this, its because so many others are milking the system. This pretty much backs up my original argument. If more people pulled then there's less work for everyone overall.

Turning up and doing the normal day's work does not deserve special thanks or appreciation from the employer. That is what your pay packet is for. If you want a pat on the back, this is earned by going above and beyond.

Wow, isn't ignorance bliss! How often does this office based work require starting the working day at 0400? Or finishing at 0200? And then finding your next day's start and finish times are different by 2 or 3 hours (and it can be more)? Because that is the reality for most traincrew. Little wonder that most put a very high value on their rostered time away from the job.

And traincrew aren't wilfully leaving the job undone, they are restricted due to the Hidden (as in Lord Hidden QC - see Clapham rail crash report) rules to ensure traincrew, and all other safety critical staff, are working having had sufficient rest between duties. And by the way most TOCs are itching to see these rules watered down.

The only people doing any milking are the TOCs who mostly refuse to recruit sufficient people to fill their rosters because overtime/rest-day working gets the job done most of the time but doesn't do it all of the time. But there is obviously insufficient incentive on them to behave any differently although ASLE&F and RMT have been campaigning for it for a long time now.
 

tiptoptaff

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There was a note about Sunday's staff shortage in this week's staff newsletter, to which most of us opined that nobody had bothered asking any of us on rest days if we wanted to work.

If you're NA on the sheets, we can't ask.
 

tiptoptaff

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For Guards, on LTV and West you need to find another member of staff to work your Sunday for you, if you're on an High Speed Services contract you can declare yourself not available for your Sunday up until 1159 on the preceding Wednesday, without organising a replacement.

West Guards can also chuck it in without consequence. That was part of last week's issue.
Currently, it is only West Drivers that have to work their booked Sundays. And more and more of ÑA declined are starting to tell us they're not coming in regardless
 

philthetube

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A few points to answer here.

I'm on a salaried management contract with minimum hours. The expectation is that sufficient hours per week are worked to ensure everything gets done, with a minimum of 37 hours. When all goes well this equates to 5x 9-5 days per week. When **** is hitting the fan, weekends are worked (and many people in our offices have to do this, contrary to 'outside opinions' it might seem.) There is no paid overtime, and many people work at home to get things done. I can't think of anyone who walks away from the job if it isn't done, we have things called accountability and work-pride.

If you're telling me your contractual hours (presumably based on a 35hr, 4-day basic week, with 8h45 average turn length) results in each individual working 13/14 days consistently in order to cover the timetable, then I would love to see the numbers to back this up. If some people are having to do this, its because so many others are milking the system. This pretty much backs up my original argument. If more people pulled then there's less work for everyone overall.

Turning up and doing the normal day's work does not deserve special thanks or appreciation from the employer. That is what your pay packet is for. If you want a pat on the back, this is earned by going above and beyond.

I am sorry, but you are being exploited

Presumably if you get a call Saturday night you would go in Sunday morning and you feel a train driver should act in the same way. Sounds fine to me except that this would mean that he/she would be unable to touch alcohol after 4pm Saturday and would have to go to bed by 8 just in case, but then you have an additional problem, obv the driver would be up by four in the morning and might then be called in to help out on a late shift, I see issues there as well.

Working in an office you can get away with going into work tired or after a heavy night the day before, not desireable but doable. A train driver cannot.

Following your logic I wonder if nurses should work all hours when there are issues at their work for no extra cash? It is commendable that they do appear in large numbers after a disaster but would you expect them to do it unpaid, I suspect most of them would but that does not make it right.

As I said at the beginning of this post, you are being exploited.
 

Dai Corner

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I am sorry, but you are being exploited

Presumably if you get a call Saturday night you would go in Sunday morning and you feel a train driver should act in the same way. Sounds fine to me except that this would mean that he/she would be unable to touch alcohol after 4pm Saturday and would have to go to bed by 8 just in case, but then you have an additional problem, obv the driver would be up by four in the morning and might then be called in to help out on a late shift, I see issues there as well.

Working in an office you can get away with going into work tired or after a heavy night the day before, not desireable but doable. A train driver cannot.

Following your logic I wonder if nurses should work all hours when there are issues at their work for no extra cash? It is commendable that they do appear in large numbers after a disaster but would you expect them to do it unpaid, I suspect most of them would but that does not make it right.

As I said at the beginning of this post, you are being exploited.

Whether you call it exploitation or not, it is common among middle/senior management. You are paid to do a job, not to attend the workplace for a certain number of hours a week.

Before I retired I worked in IT and it was not unusual to work late to fix a problem and restore service or to work unsocial hours at normal pay rates (or time in lieu) so planned maintenance did not disrupt customers.

When on call you had to be in a position to go in if necessary, so no alcohol and within reasonable travelling distance of the office.
 
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Mag_seven

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Here we go again - 14 cancellations already - and as usual the Padd-Cheltenham services decimated leaving long gaps in the Stroud Valley.
 

PHILIPE

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GWR badly hit again this weekend (8/9 July) with a host of cancellations of whole/part journeys on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route, especially, both Saturday and Saturday and resulting in overcrowding on those that ran. Other services which run over part of the route, i.e between Bristol & Cardiff and Westbury, also affected. Hardly a train ran on the Severn Beach Branch on Sunday but, surprisingly, the Paddington to Cheltenham route which usually suffers badly on a Sunday only saw 1 return cancellation.

EDIT:- I have changed the thread title to make it an ongoing thread rather than for 1 date as originally posted by OP
 
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otomous

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Whether you call it exploitation or not, it is common among middle/senior management. You are paid to do a job, not to attend the workplace for a certain number of hours a week.

Before I retired I worked in IT and it was not unusual to work late to fix a problem and restore service or to work unsocial hours at normal pay rates (or time in lieu) so planned maintenance did not disrupt customers.

When on call you had to be in a position to go in if necessary, so no alcohol and within reasonable travelling distance of the office.

Train drivers are NOT middle managers. They do a safety critical front line job which involves working irregular shifts at the mercy of the timetable, all round the clock, on most days of the year. On my roster, I only get every third weekend off, most of my days off are when other people are working, and most of my leave is rostered, ie taken when the company says. I also have a number of compulsory Sundays which it is my duty to work or find another driver to work them, who then receives the payment instead. Sundays are not pensionable and not paid at a much higher rate. I cannot just "chuck them in". There are also no extra payments for working late nights or Saturdays as people seem to think - they are just normal days. Don't worry, there are PLENTY of unsocial hours.

It's already difficult enough maintaining high standards of concentration working irregularly (such as going from extreme late to extreme early with just one day to adjust) and trying to make zero mistakes while coping with stopping patterns, train formations and schedules that seem to change just to make it even more difficult to remember them. There are sound reasons for not working too much overtime. Middle managers aren't directly responsible for the physical well being of hundreds of people and aren't likely to kill anyone. Except perhaps with poor decisions that deliberately rely on overtime because there is a cynical expectation that we are all greedy enough to do it ad nauseam. The four day 35 hour week was hard won to give drivers some sort of protection against long and potentially dangerous shifts. If we were to expect drivers to work as required constantly, incidents would rise - and guess who they hold responsible even if they've begged us to work a rest day - that's right - the driver. Working extra hours may be a career requirement for some people, but it's a career ender for us.

Maybe as a society we should accept that Sundays are special days and we all need one such day, and if we want shops, trains etc to operate we should pay accordingly, and recruit sufficient staff numbers to avoid overtime in the first place.
 

Hadders

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Maybe as a society we should accept that Sundays are special days and we all need one such day, and if we want shops, trains etc to operate we should pay accordingly, and recruit sufficient staff numbers to avoid overtime in the first place.

I agree with this but the battle was lost in the early 1990s when the Sunday Trading Act became law. Unfortunately there's no going back now, forcing shops to close on Sundays would be catastrophic for the country's economy.

In my opinion Sundays should be treated like any other day of the week and be part of contracted hours. If someone works their rest day then they should be paid an enhanced rate of pay, regardless of which day of the week this falls on.
 

otomous

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I agree with this but the battle was lost in the early 1990s when the Sunday Trading Act became law. Unfortunately there's no going back now, forcing shops to close on Sundays would be catastrophic for the country's economy.

In my opinion Sundays should be treated like any other day of the week and be part of contracted hours. If someone works their rest day then they should be paid an enhanced rate of pay, regardless of which day of the week this falls on.

We do have contracted Sundays which we are obliged to work as I explained. Some TOCS also already have Sundays as part of the working week. There is not, as people are being led to believe, a general policy of drivers not having to work Sundays across the UK. It has suited plenty of powerful people to peddle this myth of late. If shifts were voluntary, who would choose to work the extreme early or late turns on a Sunday?
 

30907

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Only slightly OT - I recall a friend many years ago being promoted from the top Supervisor grade to the bottom Management grade, and being told that working unsocial hours and overtime was now an unpaid privilege.
 

dk1

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We do have contracted Sundays which we are obliged to work as I explained. Some TOCS also already have Sundays as part of the working week. There is not, as people are being led to believe, a general policy of drivers not having to work Sundays across the UK. It has suited plenty of powerful people to peddle this myth of late. If shifts were voluntary, who would choose to work the extreme early or late turns on a Sunday?

My point exactly. I've been on the railway almost 33yrs. I simply cannot be arsed & do not need to work unless I have to. Therefore on Sundays I make myself unavailable every (starred) week & then pick & choose to work if it's not too early or too late. I lose out on the £53 bonus for making myself available for anything but hey-ho, that's a small price to pay for a social life & getting my own way.
 

455driver

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A few points to answer here.

I'm on a salaried management contract with minimum hours. The expectation is that sufficient hours per week are worked to ensure everything gets done, with a minimum of 37 hours. When all goes well this equates to 5x 9-5 days per week. When **** is hitting the fan, weekends are worked (and many people in our offices have to do this, contrary to 'outside opinions' it might seem.) There is no paid overtime, and many people work at home to get things done. I can't think of anyone who walks away from the job if it isn't done, we have things called accountability and work-pride.

If you're telling me your contractual hours (presumably based on a 35hr, 4-day basic week, with 8h45 average turn length) results in each individual working 13/14 days consistently in order to cover the timetable, then I would love to see the numbers to back this up. If some people are having to do this, its because so many others are milking the system. This pretty much backs up my original argument. If more people pulled then there's less work for everyone overall.

Turning up and doing the normal day's work does not deserve special thanks or appreciation from the employer. That is what your pay packet is for. If you want a pat on the back, this is earned by going above and beyond.

When I sign on for duty (at the allotted time) the Company give me a sheet of A4 paper (sometimes 2 sheets if I am really lucky) listing what trains I will
be working, where those trains will be stopping, when and where I will be having my break and any other relevant information, once I have completed all the work on that sheet of paper I have complied with my contract so I can go home, then it goes base over apex I am expected to stay on up to 30 minutes longer than my booked finishing time, that is the end of the contract*.

If the company have 30 trains sat there without drivers why do you expect that to be my problem, I have completed everything I am contracted and expected to do!

Are you saying that once you have completed your days work you would be quite happy for 'the company' to drop somebody else's workload (possibly from a different department) onto your desk and expect you to get on with it, I dont think so somehow!

There is a world of difference from taking pride in seeing the job through and being taken the wee wee out of, dont confuse the two!

* I have actually stayed on many hours after that on numerous occasions but the point still stands.
 

otomous

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When I sign on for duty (at the allotted time) the Company give me a sheet of A4 paper (sometimes 2 sheets if I am really lucky) listing what trains I will
be working, where those trains will be stopping, when and where I will be having my break and any other relevant information, once I have completed all the work on that sheet of paper I have complied with my contract so I can go home, then it goes base over apex I am expected to stay on up to 30 minutes longer than my booked finishing time, that is the end of the contract*.

If the company have 30 trains sat there without drivers why do you expect that to be my problem, I have completed everything I am contracted and expected to do!

Are you saying that once you have completed your days work you would be quite happy for 'the company' to drop somebody else's workload (possibly from a different department) onto your desk and expect you to get on with it, I dont think so somehow!

There is a world of difference from taking pride in seeing the job through and being taken the wee wee out of, dont confuse the two!

* I have actually stayed on many hours after that on numerous occasions but the point still stands.

There's also a world of difference between doing a desk job for longer or taking work home and knowing you've got to get up at silly o'clock the next day having already done so for a few days, and are already tired because of this and the general lack of sleep; the long periods of lone concentration etc, as well as taking direct responsibility for all those punters.
 

bramling

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I agree with this but the battle was lost in the early 1990s when the Sunday Trading Act became law. Unfortunately there's no going back now, forcing shops to close on Sundays would be catastrophic for the country's economy.

In my opinion Sundays should be treated like any other day of the week and be part of contracted hours. If someone works their rest day then they should be paid an enhanced rate of pay, regardless of which day of the week this falls on.

It's the same problem as Christmas working - "*I* don't want to work Sunday/Christmas/Easter (delete as applicable) but I want access to the full range of services and leisure options as are available on any other day".

The result is a fudge, and the upshot of this is what we see on the likes of GTR and elsewhere at weekends.

Where I work weekends are almost sacred to some people, no matter how many they have off it is never enough, and many folk will do anything to get a weekend off. Personally I prefer days off in the week, but am very much in the minority on this, but it does allow me to rise above all the workplace weekend silliness.

It's all so firmly entrenched in people I just can't see anything changing - although money can talk, it's amusing how the ones who are so averse to weekend working suddenly become much more keen when overtime is sloshing around...
 
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