GWR Shortened HST’s Cardiff > South West England.

[Envoy]

I understand that for a limited time, shortened HST’s will operate between Cardiff and the south-west. Would it not be possible to make these trains up with only 1st class coaches to give people more comfort rather than just dump them for scrap and use only second class coaches?

If GWR used these 1st class coaches at second class fares, would it not induce more people to use these slower stopping trains between Bristol & the SW instead of the XC Voyagers? Therefore, GWR would gain extra revenue. I also wonder how many people could be attracted onto these trains if the walk on fares were really low. Would the ability to offer loads of seats at low walk on prices increase revenue for the company?

Regarding the leg between Cardiff & Bristol TM; I wonder if the extra space and comfort afforded by these trains would induce more people to use rail between these two cities (& Newport) instead of the the car - especially in view of the fact that a toll is payable on the bridge and the M4 around Newport is often jammed?

 

[sprinterguy]

If the GWR mark 3 stock at Wabtec is any indication, the shortened GWR HST sets will be formed of three TSs and a TGS.

The sets are deputising for unavailable class 158s which were planned to work in 4-car formation, so should aim to provide a comparable number of seats: While it might be possible to provide longer formations of first class vehicles, if sufficient are available, to achieve this, it would cost GWR more in leasing, track access, fuel (due to the weight of additional vehicles increasing fuel consumption) and maintenance costs, and may be detrimental to the timings of the services the trains are to work.

 

[43096]

If the GWR mark 3 stock at Wabtec is any indication, the shortened GWR HST sets will be formed of three TSOs and a TGS.



The sets are deputising for unavailable class 158s which were planned to work in 4-car formation, so should aim to provide a comparable number of seats: While it might be possible to provide longer formations of first class vehicles, if sufficient are available, to achieve this, it would cost GWR more in leasing, track access, fuel (due to the weight of additional vehicles increasing fuel consumption) and maintenance costs, and may be detrimental to the timings of the services the trains are to work.

On a point of utter pedantry, there aren't TSOs in the HST fleet - the vehicle type is TS (Trailer Standard).

 

[sprinterguy]

On a point of utter pedantry, there aren't TSOs in the HST fleet - the vehicle type is TS (Trailer Standard).

Fair enough, for the peace of mind of the pedants of this forum, I shall remove the offending 'O'.

 

[222001]

Severely reducing the capacity of the trains by using first vice standard coaches would really not be a good idea, seeing as they'll only have 4 coaches anyway...

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for your responses.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Severely reducing the capacity of the trains by using first vice standard coaches would really not be a good idea, seeing as they'll only have 4 coaches anyway...

Depends what stock is currently used doesn't it? Certainly it used to be the case the services were made up a 2 car pacer, now I am assuming either a 2 or 3 car 150/158? What is the the seating capacity of 4 first class carriages compared to that of 2 or 3 150/158 carriages?

Regardless I think the idea, while interesting, is one of those that goes into the "just not going to happen" pile.

 

[222001]

Depends what stock is currently used doesn't it? Certainly it used to be the case the services were made up a 2 car pacer, now I am assuming either a 2 or 3 car 150/158? What is the the seating capacity of 4 first class carriages compared to that of 2 or 3 150/158 carriages?

Regardless I think the idea, while interesting, is one of those that goes into the "just not going to happen" pile.

It does yes, but surely you'd want to provide the maximum possible capacity (comfortably)? A 2 car 150 has around 150 seats, and 4 x first class MK3s would have around 190. Would there actually even be enough GWR first class coaches to do this, since the first class accommodation reductions? Remembering that a number of those coaches also have to go to ScotRail.

 

[co-tr-paul]

4 coaches in works along with one power car plus another power car already modified. A unit diagram already identified for testing so yes, its being done - as discussed on various other threads.

 

[DelW]

It would also cause a storm of Twitter moans, when those first-class HSTs are withdrawn and replaced either by the 158s or by other standard class stock, about how awful the 'new' trains are by comparison....

 

[Envoy]

If the GWR mark 3 stock at Wabtec is any indication, the shortened GWR HST sets will be formed of three TSs and a TGS.

The sets are deputising for unavailable class 158s which were planned to work in 4-car formation, so should aim to provide a comparable number of seats: While it might be possible to provide longer formations of first class vehicles, if sufficient are available, to achieve this, it would cost GWR more in leasing, track access, fuel (due to the weight of additional vehicles increasing fuel consumption) and maintenance costs, and may be detrimental to the timings of the services the trains are to work.

Surely, with 2 powerful locomotives on such short trains, the added weight of 1st class would hardly make any difference to acceleration and fuel consumption?

Is the intention to ultimately use 4 coach 158’s on a Cardiff > Penzance service at hourly intervals? Are 158’s going to be used on all non London services in Devon & Cornwall. Are 165/6’s will be used as 5 coach trains on the Cardiff > Portsmouth run and all other non Azuma routes through Bristol apart from the aforementioned 158 service?

When are we now likely to see some changes on these routes?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Update as of yesterday, first set due at LA in July for testing and further mods as required. 24 power cars will be modified and done in green livery.

 

[mp01]

Update as of yesterday, first set due at LA in July for testing and further mods as required. 24 power cars will be modified and done in green livery.

Just out of interest, what modifications are needed to the power cars for this?

 

[43074]

Is the intention to ultimately use 4 coach 158’s on a Cardiff > Penzance service at hourly intervals? Are 158’s going to be used on all non London services in Devon & Cornwall. Are 165/6’s will be used as 5 coach trains on the Cardiff > Portsmouth run and all other non Azuma routes through Bristol apart from the aforementioned 158 service?

No, the plans keep changing but 4-car 158s on an hourly Cardiff - Penzance service was never one of them. Cardiff - Penzance will basically be the Cardiff to Taunton and Plymouth to Penzance local services joined up every other hour between Taunton & Plymouth. The plan was to use 3-car 158s on them, but that has changed and short HSTs are planned here with aspirations for 4-car 158s on Cardiff - Portsmouth.

 

[Darandio]

Just out of interest, what modifications are needed to the power cars for this?

I did wonder this myself. Could it be that they are being downrated, maybe to further increase reliability?

Quite possibly a stupid suggestion, but I literally have no idea!

 

[Mordac]

Update as of yesterday, first set due at LA in July for testing and further mods as required. 24 power cars will be modified and done in green livery.

What mods do the power cars require?

 

[gage75]

Surely, with 2 powerful locomotives on such short trains, the added weight of 1st class would hardly make any difference to acceleration and fuel consumption?

Is the intention to ultimately use 4 coach 158’s on a Cardiff > Penzance service at hourly intervals? Are 158’s going to be used on all non London services in Devon & Cornwall. Are 165/6’s will be used as 5 coach trains on the Cardiff > Portsmouth run and all other non Azuma routes through Bristol apart from the aforementioned 158 service?

When are we now likely to see some changes on these routes?

CMIIW I would imagine that that would one hell of a diversion/scenic tour if an Azuma indeed made it to Bristol, as I thought they'll only run on the ECML

 

[AlexNL]

Just out of interest, what modifications are needed to the power cars for this?

Just guessing here, but maybe the engines will be downrated? If they're only going to haul 4 coaches (while they do 8 today) there's no need for the same amount of horse power.

 

[Darandio]

Just guessing here, but maybe the engines will be downrated? If they're only going to haul 4 coaches (while they do 8 today) there's no need for the same amount of horse power.

Ahh, so I wasn't the only one!!

 

[43096]

What mods do the power cars require?

Principal mod is addition of traction/brake interlock with the power doors.

Power down-rating - if needed - is probably not very wise. One failed power car and the other one is hobbled at less than full output. You're better off training the drivers not to use full power (or just use Bristol drivers...).

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely, with 2 powerful locomotives on such short trains, the added weight of 1st class would hardly make any difference to acceleration and fuel consumption?

I'm nae engineer, but I would certainly expect increasing train weight by 12%, the equivalent of an additional trailer, to affect fuel consumption. Though the cost is probably negligible compared to the cumulative leasing and track access costs.

I suppose that a short HST should be sufficiently nippy against Sprinter timings whether in 2+4 or 2+5 formation; Virgin Crosscountry did shorten theirs to the latter in order to match the timings of high powered Voyagers after all.

It's worthy of note in the context of this thread, however, that six first class vehicles would be required to come close to matching the capacity of four standard class ones of the type being modified for GWR (Though I'm unsure how many seats might be being lost as a result of the power door mods).

 

[Envoy]

CMIIW I would imagine that that would one hell of a diversion/scenic tour if an Azuma indeed made it to Bristol, as I thought they'll only run on the ECML

Yes, I am aware that it is Virgin who came up with the Azuma name for the East Coast fleet. However, I don’t see why we can’t refer to all of these trains with the Azuma name being as GWR have not come up with a name. It was Virgin after all, who came up with the Voyager name and that name still applies to the Cross Country fleet. I really can’t see Joe public referring to these new trains as IEP, Class 800 or Super Express Trains.

 

[Envoy]

No, the plans keep changing but 4-car 158s on an hourly Cardiff - Penzance service was never one of them. Cardiff - Penzance will basically be the Cardiff to Taunton and Plymouth to Penzance local services joined up every other hour between Taunton & Plymouth. The plan was to use 3-car 158s on them, but that has changed and short HSTs are planned here with aspirations for 4-car 158s on Cardiff - Portsmouth.

So, if 4 car 158’s are to be used on the Cardiff > Portsmouth run and 3 car 158’s between Cardiff & Taunton/Penzance, where does that leave the 165/6’s? Bristol local services? Malvern to Weymouth?

I am also surprised to read that electric doors are going to be fitted to the shortened HST’s. Would this not imply that they are going to be around for some time?

 

[Domh245]

Yes, I am aware that it is Virgin who came up with the Azuma name for the East Coast fleet. However, I don’t see why we can’t refer to all of these trains with the Azuma name being as GWR have not come up with a name. It was Virgin after all, who came up with the Voyager name and that name still applies to the Cross Country fleet. I really can’t see Joe public referring to these new trains as IEP, Class 800 or Super Express Trains.

The GWR units are going to be called IETs

 

[sprinterguy]

So, if 4 car 158’s are to be used on the Cardiff > Portsmouth run and 3 car 158’s between Cardiff & Taunton/Penzance, where does that leave the 165/6’s? Bristol local services? Malvern to Weymouth?

GWR don't have enough class 158s for both, it's either one or the other: The short HST sets are being brought in to allow the class 158s to continue to be used (and strengthened) on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route.

The original plan for the class 158s under the 2015 franchise award, as communicated on this forum by Rich McLean in March 2015, was:

12 x 2 car 158 units will be moving to Plymouth to operate 2tph Plymouth to Penzance, with some extensions to/from Exeter St Davids
3 x 3 car 158s for Taunton - Cardiff (1 x 3 Car unit, 2 x 3 car units formed from 3 x 2 car units)

The remaining 158s on St James Park - Barnstable circuits with the two 150/0s

With the shifting sands of the Great Western rolling stock cascade I have no idea what the plan is now, but I thought that the HSTs were only a stop gap until the 165s and 166s are available to cascade the 158s off the Cardiff - Portsmouth route.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The short HST sets are being brought in to allow the class 158s to continue to be used (and strengthened) on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route.

With the shifting sands of the Great Western rolling stock cascade I have no idea what the plan is now, but I thought that the HSTs were only a stop gap until the 165s and 166s are available to cascade the 158s off the Cardiff - Portsmouth route.

No, not quite. The issue here was the lack of enough Turbos going west, due to electrification cutbacks, to cascade other stock to enable the Cornish half hourly service to commence as well as enabling (as mentioned above) the Portsmouth-Cardiff service to go 5 car Turbo.

The Cornish half hourly service is key to enabling 5 car AT300 operation into Cornwall on the less busy services so getting it in is fairly crucial to the whole Cornish operational plan. You would soon run out of AT300 sets if the trains had to be all load 10 into Cornwall.

The Portsmouth-Cardiff was and is going to go Turbo. Rumoured 4 car 158 operation on that route was pure wibble - it doesn't meet the crowding need.

The HST GTi sets coming in (production batch for GWR currently from mid/late 2018 onwards) means the shortfall in units is covered so the December 2018 T/T changes, whenever they actually occur, can happen.

This converts the entire Portsmouth-Cardiff service to Turbo, mostly in 5 car formation and allows the 158 fleet to be deployed in 2, 3 and 4 car formations on other services, predominately but not exclusively, on the Cardiff to Penzance corridor (as support to the HST fleet) together with the Barnstaple branch.

As the electrification to Oxford and the Thames branches is getting pushed back to maybe the back end of CP6, maybe never, the HST GTi sets are going to be around for some time.

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah, that all makes a lot more sense now, thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[PHILIPE]

There have been so many facts, speculation, changes, guesswork.....re deployment, I feel that I'm not going to believe anything until I see it happening.

 

[43096]

There have been so many facts, speculation, changes, guesswork.....re deployment, I feel that I'm not going to believe anything until I see it happening.

I think that is probably the most sensible approach, in all honesty.

 

[Envoy]

Well, I think that Clarence is the one who really knows what is going on and I thank him for his response. I note that he says that in Devon & Cornwall the 158’s will be used in various configurations. The pity of it is that if 5 car 158’s were used on the Cardiff > Portsmouth services, we would have through corridor connections. 2 & 3 coach turbos could be used in Devon & Cornwall on services that just required that length of train. Anyway, I guess that the wider turbos would have gauging issues and that they would only wish to have 1 type of train based in Devon & Cornwall for the non Intercity services.

I also thought that the electrification of Paddington to Didcot was more or less complete and that a load of Thames turbos would soon become available? Is this not the case?