GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[Bletchleyite]

Weren't the un-upgraded sets called something else spacecraft-related? I forget what though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Weren't the un-upgraded sets called something else spacecraft-related? I forget what though.

From the 125 Group site:

http://www.125group.org.uk/past-operators/virgin-cross-country/
The next major change around with the HST fleet then came in October 2002, Virgin Cross Country launched ‘Operation Princess’ which saw a full fleet of Voyager trains displace HSTs from their previous duties, although at this time only 10 power cars left Virgin Trains – the remaining 47 power cars were divided into two pools. The ‘Challenger’ fleet was created to operate Blackpool and Manchester to Birmingham services, with the plan being to give this fleet a major refurbishment and retain these trains within Virgin Cross Country for a planned Paddington to Birmingham via Swindon operation. The power cars, which were technically the power cars in most need of attention, were transferred to Longsight depot but in a peculiar move were allocated to depot code MA, instead of LO which the West Coast power cars had used. The remainder of the power cars were nicknamed ‘Pioneer’ and these worked the Virgin West Coast services, in addition to four duties on Cross-Country operations.

The ‘Challenger’ fleet consisted of 43063/069-071/078/079/086-089/155/156/159/161/162/180/193-198 whilst the ‘Pioneer’ fleet consisted of 43065/067/068/080/084/090-094/097-103/121-123/153/164/157/158/160.

The remainder of the ‘Pioneer’ machines continued to work with Virgin Cross Country until September 2003 when regular HST operation on Virgin Cross Country ceased, and only a slimmed down fleet was needed to work the West Coast services. 43090/093/099-103/154/157/158 were all surplus, and placed into storage at MOD Bicester

 

[edwin_m]

However as you rightly state, the full "Challenger" upgrade and refurbishment never went ahead.

Unfortunate name. If we're on a spacecraft theme, Challenger was most remembered for exploding with the loss of seven astronauts in 1985, due to the failure of senior management to pay attention to the engineer that pointed out the ineffectiveness of the booster seals at low temperatures.

 

[43096]

HSTs cannot be uprated because they are at the limit of the main alternator and traction motors which is why the MTUs are set at the same rating as the Valentas were.

The limitation is the rectifiers. The four Mirrlees MB190 power cars were rated at 2,400hp until a serious rectifier fire on 43169 saw them de-rated back to 2,250hp.

 

[co-tr-paul]

So am I.


Long Rock will only be maintaining the sleepers, Laira will probably be looking after the GTI sets but some depot in Bristol is trying to grab the work.

See posts 38 and 40 for current plan.

 

[Eliottjames]

For the benefit of numpties like me, could you explain what cab desk to air cubicle wiring is?

I'm also unfamiliar with this, could someone explain please?

Crosscountry sets are being done now, as part of their Direct Award agreement.

Once again demonstrating how out of touch I am here! Does this mean that the CrossCountry HST's are getting similar modifications (CET's & power doors)? I hadn't heard of any plans to upgrade CC's fleet.

 

[221129]

I'm also unfamiliar with this, could someone explain please?



Once again demonstrating how out of touch I am here! Does this mean that the CrossCountry HST's are getting similar modifications (CET's & power doors)? I hadn't heard of any plans to upgrade CC's fleet.

Yes they are. Otherwise they can't operate post 2020.

 

[59CosG95]

Yes they are. Otherwise they can't operate post 2020.

What 221129 said. Unlike the GWR sets though, the XC sets will still run in 2+7 formation.

 

[theageofthetra]

Unfortunate name. If we're on a spacecraft theme, Challenger was most remembered for exploding with the loss of seven astronauts in 1985, due to the failure of senior management to pay attention to the engineer that pointed out the ineffectiveness of the booster seals at low temperatures.

Dodge have a new version of the Challenger on sale in the States- so doubt the name changed for that reason

 

[43096]

I'm also unfamiliar with this, could someone explain please?

I'm not 100% certain, but would assume it is the fitting of the extra wiring for the modifications between the control cubicle and the cab desk. However fitting of the actual cab desk kit and final commissioning (including final connection with the electrical system) is done later.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Dodge have a new version of the Challenger on sale in the States- so doubt the name changed for that reason

The Dodge Challenger was a classic muscle car that was originally produced in the '50s.

It therefore had no association with a spacecraft theme and could continue with its own history.

Virgin XC were using voyager (a deep space probe that NASA can still communicate with) for their new trains, although I think challenger was not used to keep with that, more with Virgin's challenge to turn their unreliable service around (the Mk2 services breaking down frequently by then due to their cost cutting on maintenance)

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm not 100% certain, but would assume it is the fitting of the extra wiring for the modifications between the control cubicle and the cab desk. However fitting of the actual cab desk kit and final commissioning (including final connection with the electrical system) is done later.

I'm guessing this is to do with the power door system and vacuum toilet system, as these will be the main modifications made to the Mk3s.

 

[yorksrob]

I know we have to have controlled emission toilets, but isn't there a way of having proper flush toilets with tanks, like on the Mk 4's or Northern 158's ? I can't stand those vacuum things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know we have to have controlled emission toilets, but isn't there a way of having proper flush toilets with tanks, like on the Mk 4's or Northern 158's ? I can't stand those vacuum things.

Not really, they use too much water.

Don't know about Mk4s but 158s dump on the track.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, they use too much water.

Don't know about Mk4s but 158s dump on the track.

The 158's on Northern have had tanks retro fitted, whilst the Mk 4's had them from new, so there doesn't seem to be a technical problem about them using "too much" water. In my experience, they don't seem to go out of service any more than the vacuum ones either.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The 158's on Northern have had tanks retro fitted, whilst the Mk 4's had them from new, so there doesn't seem to be a technical problem about them using "too much" water. In my experience, they don't seem to go out of service any more than the vacuum ones either.

As have SWT's 158 and 159s, however I suspect a vacuum system will be used as it is more efficient. This will mean that they can use smaller water tanks and smaller retention tanks, which will save weight and therefore fuel.

 

[yorksrob]

As have SWT's 158 and 159s, however I suspect a vacuum system will be used as it is more efficient. This will mean that they can use smaller water tanks and smaller retention tanks, which will save weight and therefore fuel.

I wonder whether they'll have longer between empties as well, so they still end up OOU.

 

[NickBucks]

I know we have to have controlled emission toilets, but isn't there a way of having proper flush toilets with tanks, like on the Mk 4's or Northern 158's ? I can't stand those vacuum things.

" Would passengers please sit down when using the toilet facilities"

Can we please have the red and black tartan GTI upholstery and the dimpled golf ball type grab handles on the top of the aisle facing seats ?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Sleeper mk3s have flush retention tanks.... .

 

[43096]

I'm guessing this is to do with the power door system and vacuum toilet system, as these will be the main modifications made to the Mk3s.

Not sure why the power car needs modifications for the new toilet system!

Power car mods are to do with traction/brake interlock with the doors.

 

[Cowley]

Can we please have the red and black tartan GTI upholstery and the dimpled golf ball type grab handles on the top of the aisle facing seats ?

That brings back memories, I had a couple mk2 GTIs way back.
Maybe they could put a little bit of red trim strip around the front grill and lights too.

 

[theageofthetra]

That brings back memories, I had a couple mk2 GTIs way back.
Maybe they could put a little bit of red trim strip around the front grill and lights too.

And some 'P''s cut into each wheel.

 

[TractiveEffort]

HSTs cannot be uprated because they are at the limit of the main alternator and traction motors which is why the MTUs are set at the same rating as the Valentas were.

The MTU's are set to 1500RPM max because any faster increases the frequency and hence the voltage of the auxiliary alternator output, nothing to do with main alternator or traction motors.

 

[455driver]

I know we have to have controlled emission toilets, but isn't there a way of having proper flush toilets with tanks, like on the Mk 4's or Northern 158's ? I can't stand those vacuum things.

It is possible but not desirable, they use a lot of water and so need a big header tank and a big waste tank which means they need a lot of space and also the weight penalties, both of which are problems on new trains.

 

[455driver]

I wonder whether they'll have longer between empties as well, so they still end up OOU.

They are emptied on FPX so every other day!

 

[Marklund]

Sleeper mk3s have flush retention tanks.... .

Always have had them.
There's a lot of 158/159s that have had tanks retrofitted.

 

[yorksrob]

Always have had them.
There's a lot of 158/159s that have had tanks retrofitted.

I believe the 159's have had them fitted since Network SouthEast days.

 

[Marklund]

I believe the 159's have had them fitted since Network SouthEast days.

I believe that's true for the original 159s. The later 159/1 conversions didn't.

 

[yorksrob]

It is possible but not desirable, they use a lot of water and so need a big header tank and a big waste tank which means they need a lot of space and also the weight penalties, both of which are problems on new trains.

So you're basically saying that the old trains are the best

 

[co-tr-paul]

So you're basically saying that the old trains are the best

Our fitters and preperation staff can vouch for that