GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[co-tr-paul]

Capacity issues age well known and whenever the new timetable does comes out, it will be a big improvement to frequency. Jury out on capacity though
Regarding earlier "wibble" I thought I'd post it even though "unconfirmed" because it was from my bosses and others in the know. I don't normally post unless its proved and I don't have much doings with IEPs but it was relevant to HST power car numbers and stock being retained.
With talk of another direct franchise award, it may all change anyhow.
Back on topic, 188/198 still doing the rounds.

 

[jimm]

Coming back particularly can be wedged where a 5 coach is not enough. I've come back in the afternoon when services ran every 30 minutes and my HST was still full with standing from Truro. If you catch the St Ives, Falmouth and Looe connections all on one train good luck! The 1120 IEP is 10 car and often full from Plymouth going west too. Obviously this is only during summer but still, given what's happened on Bristol trains, 5 coach London to Penzance trains are likely to be a very common occurrence despite GWR assurances. Yes a 5 car is better than no train but it is not better than the 7/8 car HST it was before.

Yes, obviously this is only during the summer - GWR do have a bit of experience of handling summer traffic, so perhaps give them some credit for that and understand that rolling stock allocations for West Country services in the summer might just be different from the rest of the year in future - in just the same way that they are now.

There will be a baseline London-Cornwall service both ways every two hours, as opposed to today's lower frequency, to help spread out loadings better, alongside the short HSTs, which is actually what this thread is meant to be about.

How many more times do people need to be told that 'what's happened on Bristol trains' has had rather more to do with the delay to driver training in the summer of 2017 and the knock-on effect from that of GWR still not having all 36 five-car Class 800s in traffic (two are still to come six months after they were all meant to be available for passenger services) than anything else and that nine-car 802s will not be spending their entire lives allocated to nothing but Paddington-Plymouth duties.

Oh, and that portion working west of Plymouth is nothing new. Those of us who can remember the days before HSTs saw plenty of trains splitting and joining at Plymouth, even - shock horror - in the summer.

 

[irish_rail]

What other destinations will see a decrease in seats between them and London? Because that is what is happening to Cornwall. Sorry to disappoint all those who think there is a huge market between penzance and Exeter, the vast majority of cornish passengers on HSTs at present are heading towards Reading or London. And this route is, like it or not, seeing a REDUCTION in capacity. Imagine telling people in Charlbury or Worcester we are going to double your services to Oxford but reduce calacity as far as London. It wouldn't be tolerated. 5 cars to Cornwall WILL cause trouble on plenty of services and could even lose to eventual loss of business for the railway.....

 

[Clarence Yard]

There will actually be an increase in seats between Plymouth and Penzance, just not always on the London trains.

The summer deployment of the 802 sets will be different to the winter deployment and there will be a further change for high summer.

 

[jimm]

What other destinations will see a decrease in seats between them and London? Because that is what is happening to Cornwall. Sorry to disappoint all those who think there is a huge market between penzance and Exeter, the vast majority of cornish passengers on HSTs at present are heading towards Reading or London. And this route is, like it or not, seeing a REDUCTION in capacity. Imagine telling people in Charlbury or Worcester we are going to double your services to Oxford but reduce calacity as far as London. It wouldn't be tolerated. 5 cars to Cornwall WILL cause trouble on plenty of services and could even lose to eventual loss of business for the railway.....

The short HSTs, the 802s (of whatever length) and XC services are all part of a package and I prefer to see what impact doubling the service frequency through Cornwall (and beyond) has on how people use the trains - including for travel to and from London - to baldly stating that such and such WILL happen.

If the infrastructure permitted a doubling of frequency between Worcester and Oxford - which it doesn't - even just running a pair of Turbos up and down all day would undoubtedly ease demand for seats on London services from people making purely local journeys who would have other options as a result.

The 06.42 from Hereford to Paddington currently carries a substantial number of people every morning whose only interest is getting into Oxford, because it is the first train to arrive there for 40 minutes, with the following service reaching Oxford more than an hour after it. Add another train or two around that service and it's pretty obvious that some people would change their travel habits. I suspect GWR is planning to make just such a change on the Cotswold Line when the new timetable is finally implemented.

 

[TEW]

There will be a baseline London-Cornwall service both ways every two hours, as opposed to today's lower frequency, to help spread out loadings better, alongside the short HSTs, which is actually what this thread is meant to be about.

The current service is already basically two hourly or better. The only gap significantly greater than 2 hours is between the 0730 and 1003 departures from London, and that is only because the 0730 goes via Bristol. Between 0505 and 1000 from Penzance, and 1403 and 1803 from Paddington, an hourly, or near enough, service is provided.

 

[jimm]

Which won't be changing in future, due to things like where trains are serviced overnight, ie Long Rock - but all the extra local services that will be operating in Cornwall in between the London trains should mean less pressure on the long-distance services than there is now from passengers just making a local journey who have no other options at present.

 

[Adsy125]

The current service is already basically two hourly or better. The only gap significantly greater than 2 hours is between the 0730 and 1003 departures from London, and that is only because the 0730 goes via Bristol. Between 0505 and 1000 from Penzance, and 1403 and 1803 from Paddington, an hourly, or near enough, service is provided.

Until recently the 0730 didn't go via Bristol and was great to get to the West Country from Berks and Hants line stations!

I think removing all stops between Reading and Taunton on trains running beyond Newton Abbot is a pity as it makes it much harder and slower to get to Devon than it is already.

 

[morrisobrien]

The 0730 Paddington-Penzance via Bristol has been running for years.

 

[4141]

The 0730 Paddington-Penzance via Bristol has been running for years.

Indeed, right back to steam days I believe! I've used it many times to get to Cornwall...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In steam days there was a super early (0530am?) Paddington-Penzance via Bristol which was the nearest thing to an all stations service you’ll see. The through portion of the train was six coaches and after Didcot it literally called everywhere. I believe the arrival into Penzance was only about 30 mins in front of the 1030hrs Cornish Riviera?

 

[richw]

The 0730 Paddington-Penzance via Bristol has been running for years.

In recent years it went down the B&H with the Paignton train going via Bristol. It has recently swapped back for the Penzance to go via Bristol again

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In recent years it went down the B&H with the Paignton train going via Bristol. It has recently swapped back for the Penzance to go via Bristol again

A few (5-6?) years ago FGW introduced the 0706 Padd-Paignton via Westbury. About 2-3 years later, in response to increasing calls for a pre-1030 arrival into Plymouth, the 0706 diverted to Penzance and swapped with the 0730. However the immediate downside was that the 1015 Exeter-Penzance was suddenly a Sprinter vice HST and the businesses of Plymouth really wanted a pre-1000 arrival on a faster service, not a semi-fast. So in January the new 0637 Padd-Penzance limited stop was introduced (via Lavington) and the 0706 / 0730 re-swapped again.

Incidentally in Intercity days the 0730 ran at 0745 and via Bristol Parkway vice Bath. There was however an 0705 Swindon-Penzance via Bath using a class 158 which then went on to work the 1230 Penzance-Birmingham NS. (edit - I think Wales & West eventually extended this to start from Waterloo at about 5am?)

 

[nicjoynson]

Back on topic a little: is the first 'castle class' mini HST working at the moment?

Nic

 

[83G/84D]

Yes it is, doing it’s usual diagram.

 

[Thunderer]

Is 43002 to be retained by GWR for these services?

 

[SWTrainspottin]

Is 43002 to be retained by GWR for these services?

No, 002 is due to go off-lease and into storage. http://hst-info.co.uk/

 

[Thunderer]

No, 002 is due to go off-lease and into storage. http://hst-info.co.uk/

Thanks for the info...very useful. However, on here 43002 is down as Retain? Perhsps my source is out of date? https://www.abrail.co.uk/diesellocodetail.htm

 

[AnthonyRail]

Oh best get out and see 43002 and 43185 soon

 

[RPI]

Coming back particularly can be wedged where a 5 coach is not enough. I've come back in the afternoon when services ran every 30 minutes and my HST was still full with standing from Truro. If you catch the St Ives, Falmouth and Looe connections all on one train good luck! The 1120 IEP is 10 car and often full from Plymouth going west too. Obviously this is only during summer but still, given what's happened on Bristol trains, 5 coach London to Penzance trains are likely to be a very common occurrence despite GWR assurances. Yes a 5 car is better than no train but it is not better than the 7/8 car HST it was before.

1120 from Plymouth west full?? I've worked this train most days over the past three weeks and it is far from full! A two car 150 would suffice!

 

[RPI]

What other destinations will see a decrease in seats between them and London? Because that is what is happening to Cornwall. Sorry to disappoint all those who think there is a huge market between penzance and Exeter, the vast majority of cornish passengers on HSTs at present are heading towards Reading or London. And this route is, like it or not, seeing a REDUCTION in capacity. Imagine telling people in Charlbury or Worcester we are going to double your services to Oxford but reduce calacity as far as London. It wouldn't be tolerated. 5 cars to Cornwall WILL cause trouble on plenty of services and could even lose to eventual loss of business for the railway.....

Utter tosh, I've worked these services for twenty years and the vast majority of passengers travelling on pad services are local passengers, on an average HST through Cornwall I'd say around 30-40% are going to London, maybe 50 in summer, the rest are local travellers mainly to Plymouth and a fair few connecting with Crosscountry services up north

 

[Geoff DC]

and a fair few connecting with Crosscountry services up north

Or connecting with Crosscountry services at Newton Abbott where the Railway Inn provides a much nicer waiting environment than Plymouth Station

 

[embers25]

1120 from Plymouth west full?? I've worked this train most days over the past three weeks and it is far from full! A two car 150 would suffice!

The past three weeks is not peak summer season and out of peak summer season all devon and cornwall services have significantly lower loadings. After working 20 years you must have worked August Saturdays, even when raining, and even August weekdays if the weather is good. A 5 car IEP would be woefully inadequate on many summer services west of Plymouth. If you know where people are heading you must be the only 125 or IEP guard to actually do ticket checks west of Plymouth as I've never had my ticket checked on 125's and IEP's west of Plymouth and I am a regular traveller.

 

[jimm]

The past three weeks is not peak summer season and out of peak summer season all devon and cornwall services have significantly lower loadings. After working 20 years you must have worked August Saturdays, even when raining, and even August weekdays if the weather is good. A 5 car IEP would be woefully inadequate on many summer services west of Plymouth. If you know where people are heading you must be the only 125 or IEP guard to actually do ticket checks west of Plymouth as I've never had my ticket checked on 125's and IEP's west of Plymouth and I am a regular traveller.

Why is it that people persist in assuming that any and every London service operating west of Plymouth will be a five-car IET in future? Never mind that the addition of extra services to give two trains per hour all day, worked by 300-seat HSTs, might just spread out loadings by giving passengers more options on when to travel.

Clarence Yard, who knows a thing or two about how IETs are going to be used, posted this just three days ago, back up this same page.

There will actually be an increase in seats between Plymouth and Penzance, just not always on the London trains.

The summer deployment of the 802 sets will be different to the winter deployment and there will be a further change for high summer.

Which reads to me as though GWR may just have a plan for handling the higher loads in the South West during the summer and other busy times like Easter and Christmas.

Summer loadings in commuter-belt areas are lower than usual, so some services that would need a nine-car IET the rest of the year won't during late July and August. And unlike with the HSTs, having a mixed fleet of five-car and nine-car IET sets makes shuffling things around to reflect these changes in demand a tad easier.

 

[embers25]

Why is it that people persist in assuming that any and every London service operating west of Plymouth will be a five-car IET in future? Never mind that the addition of extra services to give two trains per hour all day, worked by 300-seat HSTs, might just spread out loadings by giving passengers more options on when to travel.

Clarence Yard, who knows a thing or two about how IETs are going to be used, posted this just three days ago, back up this same page.



Which reads to me as though GWR may just have a plan for handling the higher loads in the South West during the summer and other busy times like Easter and Christmas.

Summer loadings in commuter-belt areas are lower than usual, so some services that would need a nine-car IET the rest of the year won't during late July and August. And unlike with the HSTs, having a mixed fleet of five-car and nine-car IET sets makes shuffling things around to reflect these changes in demand a tad easier.

I guess many of us are all a little sceptical of GWR promises. Take this past summer (I know IEPs were only just being introduced) but the number of short forms on Bristol and Cardiff was insane, add to that the cancellations due to staff shortages and several Sundays Bristol to London was 1 train in 3 hours and that was then 5 vice 10. In addition the number of 7 coach HST's making it to Cornwall was high too.

The odd thing I noticed with IEP's in Cornwall is, despite the automatic doors, the guard still walks up and down platforms to check each door so they take as long to stop as 125's. Also, at several stations in Cornwall the 10 coach IEPs had doors opened that were off the main platform and had passengers jumping down onto the end of the platform with the incline. That may have had something to do with the fact that each time no announcement was made about which coaches were platformed. I appreciate it was the first summer but first impressions were very poor.

 

[jimm]

Where are all the short forms on Bristol and Cardiff services now that 34 of the 36 five-car 800s are available for passenger traffic at long last? Finally providing some breathing space in the fleet for programmed maintenance, last-minute faults, etc, rather than requiring every set that was available to effectively achieve 100 per cent availability.

Staff training on IETs was delayed for four months last year and GWR has been playing catch-up ever since but we are a long way from the dark days at the start of the year or the Saturday of the Easter weekend, when several routes were just about unusable due to staff shortages.

How many five vice 10 formations have operated this week? Surely some of those who diligently moaned about short-forms for months on end have been carefully monitoring the numbers and can tell us...

I've no idea why the train managers in Cornwall don't trust the doors. Maybe crews closer to London are more used to such new-fangled stuff as power doors from years of working with Turbos and 180s and trust them more but I haven't seen any staff member walking up and down a platform in my neck of the woods for months, unless it's an HST duty.

For some reason, the 802s seem to have a different version of the customer information system from the 800s - if 802101 turns up on the Cotswold Line working on a nine-car 800 diagram at the moment, the train managers have to make all announcements about which doors to use, as the only thing the train can tell anyone at the moment is which stations it is stopping at. Though I think on the nine-car 800s the drivers also have to open the doors manually at some places for some reason, rather than relying on the electronics.

I expect yet another software update is on the way.

None of which is to do with the four-coach HSTs, expect perhaps power doors.

 

[pompeyfan]

I guess many of us are all a little sceptical of GWR promises. Take this past summer (I know IEPs were only just being introduced) but the number of short forms on Bristol and Cardiff was insane, add to that the cancellations due to staff shortages and several Sundays Bristol to London was 1 train in 3 hours and that was then 5 vice 10. In addition the number of 7 coach HST's making it to Cornwall was high too.

The odd thing I noticed with IEP's in Cornwall is, despite the automatic doors, the guard still walks up and down platforms to check each door so they take as long to stop as 125's. Also, at several stations in Cornwall the 10 coach IEPs had doors opened that were off the main platform and had passengers jumping down onto the end of the platform with the incline. That may have had something to do with the fact that each time no announcement was made about which coaches were platformed. I appreciate it was the first summer but first impressions were very poor.

I think the RAIB and the TOC would be interested to know that some doors which aren’t platformed are opening.

At many companies opening doors where the train isn’t accommodated is an instant off track, I’m not for a moment suggesting grassing on the crew with specifics, but what you describe is an injury waiting to happen.

 

[Warwick]

Eh? Why? 5 coaches is more than enough, means people will not get left in the rear half onwards reducing station dwell times.

Dwell times at Cornish stations - as one who regularly use GWR - are shockingly long.

 

[jimm]

I think the RAIB and the TOC would be interested to know that some doors which aren’t platformed are opening.

At many companies opening doors where the train isn’t accommodated is an instant off track, I’m not for a moment suggesting grassing on the crew with specifics, but what you describe is an injury waiting to happen.

What was said above, if you read it carefully, is that a door or doors opened adjacent to a platform ramp, not well off a platform end.

All it would take for that to happen is for a train to pull up fractionally short of the stop board at a station where the rearmost door that should open would be very close to the end of the level part of a platform.

 

[pompeyfan]

What was said above, if you read it carefully, is that a door or doors opened adjacent to a platform ramp, not well off a platform end.

All it would take for that to happen is for a train to pull up fractionally short of the stop board at a station where the rearmost door that should open would be very close to the end of the level part of a platform.

The platform is counted from white line to white line, the ramp is not classed as useable and so technically it’s a release off the platform. Does the driver release the doors on IETs after checking the DOO cameras or does the Guard have full door control?

If it happens on every train clearly there’s an issue, if it’s only the 1 train you saw that’s more of a fault of the crew.