GWR withdraw some 800's due to cracks in yaw damper bolsters...

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
279
8 Hitachi class 800 5 carriage trains have been withdrawn from service due to significant cracks found in the yaw damper bolsters. Not just CAF who appear to have problems with designing/manufacturing vehicles to cope with UK infrastructure.....
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

365 Networker

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
267
Very worrying - I assume all other IET operators will now have to inspect their units? It will be interesting if the same problems start to appear with the Desiro City and Aventra fleets.
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
279
Very worrying...
As I said in the CAF/Northern thread, it shouldn't be worrying; instead be reassured that the mechanisms in place to detect such a failure worked and that an accident was prevented from happening and that other affected operators have been informed and they can put appropriate containment measures in place.
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
3,991
Location
DTOS A or B
Very worrying - I assume all other IET operators will now have to inspect their units? It will be interesting if the same problems start to appear with the Desiro City and Aventra fleets.
Desiro cities are over 4 years old now, I would hazard guess these would have shown up by now if it were an issue.
 

greatvoyager

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2019
Messages
2,358
Location
Exeter
8 Hitachi class 800 5 carriage trains have been withdrawn from service due to significant cracks found in the yaw damper bolsters. Not just CAF who appear to have problems with designing/manufacturing vehicles to cope with UK infrastructure.....
Are the 9-car units going to have this issue?
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
1,745
Location
County Durham
I’m amazed it’s taken this long. There’s no end of build quality problems with them and that’s just from what the passengers get to see, could be 10 times worse underneath for all I know.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
4,071
Location
Tokyo-3
Not a good time for new builds, is it?
As I said in the CAF/Northern thread, it shouldn't be worrying; instead be reassured that the mechanisms in place to detect such a failure worked and that an accident was prevented from happening and that other affected operators have been informed and they can put appropriate containment measures in place.
3 out of the 4 new train families have had a plethora of issues, I'd say that's the worrying part. Also it's the 2nd different manufacturer in the space of under a month to find yaw damper bracket cracks. Not good all round.
 

FGW_DID

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,185
Location
Oxfordshire
8 Hitachi class 800 5 carriage trains have been withdrawn from service due to significant cracks found in the yaw damper bolsters. Not just CAF who appear to have problems with designing/manufacturing vehicles to cope with UK infrastructure.....

Very worrying - I assume all other IET operators will now have to inspect their units? It will be interesting if the same problems start to appear with the Desiro City and Aventra fleets.

GWR would have not have made the decision to stop the 8 units, that would be Hitachi’s / Agility trains. Whilst GWR / LNER etc may operate the 80x series, it’s Hitachi that’s responsible for all the maintenance of the units so it will be them carrying out any further checks.
 

365 Networker

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
267
GWR would have not have made the decision to stop the 8 units, that would be Hitachi’s / Agility trains. Whilst GWR / LNER etc may operate the 80x series, it’s Hitachi that’s responsible for all the maintenance of the units so it will be them carrying out any further checks.
Thanks for the info.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
10,599
GWR would have not have made the decision to stop the 8 units, that would be Hitachi’s / Agility trains. Whilst GWR / LNER etc may operate the 80x series, it’s Hitachi that’s responsible for all the maintenance of the units so it will be them carrying out any further checks.
There’s an NIR (National Incident Report) been issued for this, no doubt all 80x operators will be instigating fleet checks as a result. Whilst Hitachi are responsible for maintenance, GWR and LNER (and others) will be keeping a close check on what’s going on (or should be...) as the risk for a ultimately with their services.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,813
Location
Glasgow
I’m amazed it’s taken this long. There’s no end of build quality problems with them and that’s just from what the passengers get to see, could be 10 times worse underneath for all I know.
Not a good time for new builds, is it?

3 out of the 4 new train families have had a plethora of issues, I'd say that's the worrying part. Also it's the 2nd different manufacturer in the space of under a month to find yaw damper bracket cracks. Not good all round.
The one thing I note is how often this is made out to be a 'recent' thing affecting new trains. One point I'd like to make is how throughout history there have been build issues with scores of trains!

Steam locos
Mk2 coaches
Class 86s
HSTs
InterCity 225s
Class 150s
Class 158s
Various EMUs
Various other DMUs

Just because there appears to be a propensity of this happening at the moment doesn't mean it's excessive for the present time. Look at any 1980s/1990s railway news magazine and you'll have a serious case of déja vu, I think it's the large number of new trains from a reduced number of platforms which gives the impression it's particularly bad with today's news trains.

Sure it's not great, but I for one expect this with any modern train - build quality is just not as good as it should be, everything is built to a price and price doesn't seem to guarantee stock that can stand up to the rigours of intensive service without certain faults appearing.

There’s an NIR (National Incident Report) been issued for this, no doubt all 80x operators will be instigating fleet checks as a result. Whilst Hitachi are responsible for maintenance, GWR and LNER (and others) will be keeping a close check on what’s going on (or should be...) as the risk for a ultimately with their services.
And if further similar faults with other operator's units manifest this is not going to bode well for most InterCity operations given the density of 80x units on those workings now.

I'd laugh if LNER had to put every available 225 back in service to cover! ;)
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
2,749
Location
London
I believe they are mostly undergoing investigation at Stoke Gifford and stopped by Hitachi.
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
279
GWR would have not have made the decision to stop the 8 units, that would be Hitachi’s / Agility trains. Whilst GWR / LNER etc may operate the 80x series, it’s Hitachi that’s responsible for all the maintenance of the units so it will be them carrying out any further checks.
GWR, as the holder of the operational safety case, are very much the entity who makes the final decision on what can and cannot enter service; whether on an individual train basis or through a process that discharges the responsibility to the TSP (Hitachi/Agility in this case).

I spent 8 years or so acting as a middleman in just such a relationship on the class 365 fleet.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
7,034
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
I’m amazed it’s taken this long. There’s no end of build quality problems with them and that’s just from what the passengers get to see, could be 10 times worse underneath for all I know.

I have to agree; They were built to a price, and it’s starting to show through, despite all the spin from Hitachi / the DfT about the supposed “Bullet Train Technology” etc. I did make a mention on the CAF thread as to whether Hitachi could have been next, and it turns out that they are too with a similar issue (albeit it hasn't fallen off, thankfully).

Having seen the photos of 013 in the NIR, it’s quite a crack. Enough to require the paint removed for further testing - which presumably means it'll require more than simple NDT type testing.
 
Last edited:

Cletus

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2010
Messages
2,009
Location
Dover
Did the class 395's have damper problems soon after their introduction?
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
2,749
Location
London
I agree. They were built to a price, and it’s starting to show through, despite all the BS from Hitachi about “Bullet Train Technology” etc. Interestingly, I did mention in the CAF thread that I wonder if Hitachi would be next...

Having seen the photos of 013, it’s quite a crack. Enough that it’s had to have the paint removed for further testing.

I've also heard its 10, not the original 8 listed by the OP.
 

Wyrleybart

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
520
Location
South Staffordshire
GWR, as the holder of the operational safety case, are very much the entity who makes the final decision on what can and cannot enter service; whether on an individual train basis or through a process that discharges the responsibility to the TSP (Hitachi/Agility in this case).

I spent 8 years or so acting as a middleman in just such a relationship on the class 365 fleet.

The question is though, how many GWR maintenance engineers are there for the 80x fleets ?
Obviously North Pole, Stoke Gifford and Maliphant are Hitachi depots and the TRIs are Hitachi staff.
Do Hitachi contract in GWR engineers for certain work on their kit on Laira and Long Rock depots ?
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
279
I've also heard its 10, not the original 8 listed by the OP.
The NIR said 8, but it's likely they're going to find more given the NIR said they were eddy current testing the bolsters on all 800's and not just the ones with visible cracks already stopped so it could well be up to 10 already.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
2,749
Location
London
The NIR said 8, but it's likely they're going to find more given the NIR said they were eddy current testing the bolsters on all 800's and not just the ones with visible cracks already stopped so it could well be up to 10 already.

Well quite, I imagine they're going through the whole fleet (including 802s) and more faults are being found.
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
279
When the 395's were in the design phase the consultancy I was working for at the time was involved, contracted to Hitachi to assist with UK infrastructure interface, and I heard a senior consultant recount that when they'd reviewed the proposed bogie design Hitachi had been told that, while it may be fine for HS1 operation, it would not last when operated on the SE "traditional" routes.

Hitachi reportedly expressed surprise, as they said it was their standard bogie design and it met all of the European standards, but were told in no uncertain terms that it was not robust enough and needed beefing up to cope with UK infrastructure.

In the last week I've heard a consultant who was involved in the CAF 195 design in a similar role recount exactly the same experience....
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
7,034
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
When the 395's were in the design phase the consultancy I was working for at the time was involved, contracted to Hitachi to assist with UK infrastructure interface, and I heard a senior consultant recount that when they'd reviewed the proposed bogie design Hitachi had been told that, while it may be fine for HS1 operation, it would not last when operated on the SE "traditional" routes.

Hitachi reportedly expressed surprise, as they said it was their standard bogie design and it met all of the European standards, but were told in no uncertain terms that it was not robust enough and needed beefing up to cope with UK infrastructure.

In the last week I've heard a consultant who was involved in the CAF 195 design in a similar role recount exactly the same experience....

It is interesting that you have said that as, what with both the CAF and Hitachi situation, it has put the following thought into my head - Is it time that we returned to a more normal bogie design and drop the “lightweight” skateboard type designs?
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,012
Location
nowhere
The AnsaldoBreda heritage is still there !

I had the same thought at first, but as these are 800s, and not 802s, said heritage isn't a factor! It'll have been screwed together in Newton Aycliffe
It is interesting that you have said that as, what with both the CAF and Hitachi situation, it has put the following thought into my head - Is it time that we returned to a more normal bogie design and drop the “lightweight” skateboard type designs?

With these cracks appearing on 5 car units, it isn't the lightweight bogies that are at fault, those units only have full frame bogies
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
6,311
Location
UK
The question is though, how many GWR maintenance engineers are there for the 80x fleets ?
Obviously North Pole, Stoke Gifford and Maliphant are Hitachi depots and the TRIs are Hitachi staff.
Do Hitachi contract in GWR engineers for certain work on their kit on Laira and Long Rock depots ?

The 802s are maintained differently to the 800s, so GWR maintenance have nothing to do with the 800s which are not seen by Laira/Long Rock
 

TPO

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2018
Messages
126
GWR, as the holder of the operational safety case, are very much the entity who makes the final decision on what can and cannot enter service; whether on an individual train basis or through a process that discharges the responsibility to the TSP (Hitachi/Agility in this case).

I spent 8 years or so acting as a middleman in just such a relationship on the class 365 fleet.

Being a bit pedantic, that's not true actually as there's been no "operational safety cases" since 2006 when ROGS replaced the Safety Case regulations. These days it's Safety Certificates for a Train Operator and in more recent years there's the interface of TOC and ECM to be considered...... both Train Operator and ECM have duties wrt rail vehicles...... albeit usually less complex in TOC-land than in FOC-land as for passenger vehicles the TOC usually performs ECM duties and is deemed competent to meet ROGS Reg 18A duties on the basis they hold a Safety Certificate and the ROGS criteria for Safety Certificate assessment include a chunk on fleet management (ECMs only need to be specifically certified for wagons- the EU Directive extending such certification to locos and non-wagons was NOT adopted into GB law on 1 Jan 2021). The commercial arrangements don't always match up precisely with the regulatory requirements either.......

One of the perennial issues is who can actually raise a NIR under RIS-8250-RST (as in: who has the sort of NIR Online account to do so). Generally only Railway Undertakings and ECMs that can do so- which means that a defect can circulate for a bit in the supply chain before a TOC/FOC realises that there's a defect they have which also meets the criteria for an NIR- and only then does the NIR get raised (yes I do know of examples). Albeit I doubt that applies in this case as it's a much tighter fleet and much closer to the TOC, so looks like it's been raised in good time. My experience with GWR was that they have always been very level-headed with their NIRs so I would expect it's all well under control.

As ever, the check/inspection programme will find the issue, the engineers will work hard on risk assessments to keep as much running (safely!) as possible and the issue will get sorted. I can't really get excited by this, as others have said there's always issues when new vehicles are introduced it's just we're so much better at (a) finding them (b) spreading the word to other operators and (c) putting in place a risk based action plan to manage the situation safely.

TPO
 

Top