GWR's West of England Stock and 769s

[Energy]

Name Change
I changed the name from just the 143s and 769s to include the West of England Stock (143s 150s 158s 43 short sets and some 166s and 165s) as they are also important in the replacement of the 143s. Also they stock is getting old (especially the 150s) so we can also talk about the replacements. The 769s are also here as the are involved in the cascades of the 165s and 166s.
Original Post
GWR are going to need to replace the 143s by the end of this year, they plan to replace them with either 150s or 158s (the GWR Wikipedia page says 158s, the 143 Wikipedia page says 150s), probably 150s. However the 769 delays makes me wonder where they are going to get these units, the 769s are meant to replace some 166s/165s on some Reading services, then the 166s/165s will get cascaded, but as the TfW ones are meant to be delivered around this month it seems that GWR are going to get there in time. What will GWR do until they can get replacements for the pacers? Could the Greater Anglia 156s come in time?
On the 769s, if GWR decide to cancel the 769 order or the 769s never get built, what will replace (well take there place) them? My guess is the 379s from Greater Anglia as one of them got converted to a battery IPEMU and GWR already operate Electrostars.

 

[PHILIPE]

GWR are going to need to replace the 143s by the end of this year, they plan to replace them with either 150s or 158s (the GWR Wikipedia page says 158s, the 143 Wikipedia page says 150s), probably 150s. However the 769 delays makes me wonder where they are going to get these units, the 769s are meant to replace some 166s/165s on some Reading services, then the 166s/165s will get cascaded, but as the TfW ones are meant to be delivered around this month it seems that GWR are going to get there in time. What will GWR do until they can get replacements for the pacers? Could the Greater Anglia 156s come in time?
On the 769s, if GWR decide to cancel the 769 order or the 769s never get built, what will replace (well take there place) them? My guess is the 379s from Greater Anglia as one of them got converted to a battery IPEMU and GWR already operate Electrostars.

Have you not heard of the GT1 sets, shortened 2+4 HSTs already in plenty of use ? The 150s and 158s they already have and where did you hear about GA 156s and 379s ? Wikipedia is not a reliable source and can only be treated as a guide.

 

[Energy]

Have you not heard of the GT1 sets, shortened 2+4 HSTs already in plenty of use ? The 150s and 158s they already have and where did you hear about GA 156s and 379s ? Wikipedia is not a reliable source and can only be treated as a guide.

I know the HST short sets exist but I thought there weren't enough of them? The 156s and 379s were just my guesses of what could happen as those are being retired.

 

[PHILIPE]

I know the GTI sets exist but I thought there weren't enough of them? The 156s and 379s were just my guesses of what could happen.

There is a thread here to keep up to date with the Turbo Cascade:-

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-to-bristol-region-services.146681/page-30

 

[Non Multi]

I think their insider that posts here has previously stated that they will be seeking more 158s when they become available.

 

[Energy]

I think their insider that posts here has previously stated that they will be seeking more 158s.

Where from? I don't think any operator apart from TfW is planning on retiring them and I think the TfW ones are being retired in 2023 which is still 3.5 years at the earliest.
The new EMR franchise doesn't plan on replacing there's, neither does SWR, Northern and ScotRail. And these franchises end in 2027, 2024, 2025 and 2025 respectively.

 

[PHILIPE]

There are no 158s on the horizon at the present time but some more Turbos should be available for the December Timetable as there are providing cover for some 387 Electrostars which GWR (via Twitter) should be free to return to their LTV duties. To cover the 143s directly, there being utilised on the Devon Metro, these are being being replaced from December by 158/9s on the Barnstaple servicesrunning independently between Barnstaple and St.James Park. There will be an half hourly services between Exmouth and Paignton worked by pairs of 150s

 

[Energy]

Thanks for the information. I'm guessing in the next franchise the 150s may be replaced in the new franchise as in 2020 (when the current franchise ends) they will be 36 years old. One of my friends told me GWR were looking at Caf but I can't remember where he got this information.

 

[irish_rail]

Thanks for the information. I'm guessing in the next franchise the 150s may be replaced in the new franchise as in 2020 (when the current franchise ends) they will be 36 years old. One of my friends told me GWR were looking at Caf but I can't remember where he got this information.

Please not CAF! Anyone but CAF. Sampled a 195 recently, was flipping awful. Even got to have a look in the cab and even that was poor!

 

[Energy]

Please not CAF! Anyone but CAF. Sampled a 195 recently, was flipping awful. Even got to have a look in the cab and even that was poor!

It is Northern though meaning that it is going to be cheap, I would see the 196s for West Midlands Trains and the ones for TfW as if GWR would go for new Caf units they would probably get them with end doors so they can couple multiple together for services like the ones which the short HSTs work.

 

[507021]

Please not CAF! Anyone but CAF. Sampled a 195 recently, was flipping awful. Even got to have a look in the cab and even that was poor!

If they are CAF, then we'd be more than happy to have them in the north and you can have our 150s in return.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Not sure if the 769s will be ready in time for this cascade, but this is my guess. The 387s due for Heathrow Express have already left GWR service for refurbishment. The 387s currently in use on the London-Reading stopping services will no longer be needed from December as TFL rail takes over these services. These 387s can then be cascaded to any electrified routes currently operated by Turbos. These 165s/166s move to the Bristol area to replace further 158s. These 158s go to the Tarka Line in Devon, as well as mainline stopping services in Devon/Cornwall. 143s on the Tarka Line are replaced, while 158s on the main line will cascade 150s to replace the remaining 143s on the Avocet/Riviera lines.

Remember than only 8 143 units remain in service. These often run in pairs, so a 3-car 158 could possibly replace 2 2-car 143s.

Otherwise, could end up with short formations on some routes, pausing any refurbishment programmes, or could GWR even take a short term lease some of the withdrawn 153s?

 

[PHILIPE]

Not sure if the 769s will be ready in time for this cascade, but this is my guess. The 387s due for Heathrow Express have already left GWR service for refurbishment. The 387s currently in use on the London-Reading stopping services will no longer be needed from December as TFL rail takes over these services. These 387s can then be cascaded to any electrified routes currently operated by Turbos. These 165s/166s move to the Bristol area to replace further 158s. These 158s go to the Tarka Line in Devon, as well as mainline stopping services in Devon/Cornwall. 143s on the Tarka Line are replaced, while 158s on the main line will cascade 150s to replace the remaining 143s on the Avocet/Riviera lines.

Remember than only 8 143 units remain in service. These often run in pairs, so a 3-car 158 could possibly replace 2 2-car 143s.

Otherwise, could end up with short formations on some routes, pausing any refurbishment programmes, or could GWR even take a short term lease some of the withdrawn 153s?

Why lease 153s ? The have just got rid of them. You're more or less repeating what has been said already up thread

 

[Clarence Yard]

In common with the other non-PRM stock TOCs, the DfT has asked GWR to apply to it for stock retention into the early months of/mid 2020.

For GWR this means the cl.143 stock. The GTi conversion programme should have enabled all 11 sets to be in by timetable change (and release all the cl.143) but that now looks like being only 9 in service for December with the other 2 entering service in the new year. The Turbo mods programme should have ended by now but that was elongated (with DfT permission) to release up Turbos to cover for the lack of electrification. The 769 units should have provided, amongst other things, cover for 2 x Turbos being away on Mods until mid 2020 but the delivery of the first 769 unit seems to be slipping into 2020. Late delivery of the 769 units has no other effect on the original December 2019 deployment plan which was compiled when the cl.769 units were not factored in.

So it looks as if the cl.143 units, if the DfT approve it, will be around for a few months after 31/12/19. The "fiddle" the DfT are employing elsewhere is to pair up a PRM unit with a non-PRM unit so the train always has PRM accommodation and the on board staff are there to ensure people get in the "right" part.

 

[PHILIPE]

In common with the other non-PRM stock TOCs, the DfT has asked GWR to apply to it for stock retention into the early months of/mid 2020.

For GWR this means the cl.143 stock. The GTi conversion programme should have enabled all 11 sets to be in by timetable change (and release all the cl.143) but that now looks like being only 9 in service for December with the other 2 entering service in the new year. The Turbo mods programme should have ended by now but that was elongated (with DfT permission) to release up Turbos to cover for the lack of electrification. The 769 units should have provided, amongst other things, cover for 2 x Turbos being away on Mods until mid 2020 but the delivery of the first 769 unit seems to be slipping into 2020. Late delivery of the 769 units has no other effect on the original December 2019 deployment plan which was compiled when the cl.769 units were not factored in.

So it looks as if the cl.143 units, if the DfT approve it, will be around for a few months after 31/12/19. The "fiddle" the DfT are employing elsewhere is to pair up a PRM unit with a non-PRM unit so the train always has PRM accommodation and the on board staff are there to ensure people get in the "right" part.

Thank you as always CY for clearing these points up and keeping us up-dated.

 

[Energy]

The 769s look likely to be cancelled to me. Unless there is another extension the current franchise ends in early 2020 and at the current rate it looks unlikely that GWR will get the units in time.

 

[Energy]

There is also the 185s which are going to be leaving the TPE fleet, they could take over some operations for GWR

 

[Flinn Reed]

There is also the 185s which are going to be leaving the TPE fleet, they could take over some operations for GWR

GWR were recently testing Turbos on some of the lines in Devon and Cornwall. With some comments that the 165s/166s are not suitable for longer distance services from Bristol, perhaps in the next franchise we could see a cascade of 165s/166s further west to replace the older class 150s (which are unlikely to be suitable for the next franchise), with newer stock (such as 185s) introduced on services such as Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Could SWR even introduce 185s, given they already operate electric desiros, on the unelectrified routes currently using 158s/159s?

 

[507021]

There is also the 185s which are going to be leaving the TPE fleet, they could take over some operations for GWR

That'll depend on which operator takes over Liverpool-Nottingham from EMR, if it goes to TPE then I'd imagine there won't be any 185s going off lease.

 

[PHILIPE]

GWR were recently testing Turbos on some of the lines in Devon and Cornwall. With some comments that the 165s/166s are not suitable for longer distance services from Bristol, perhaps in the next franchise we could see a cascade of 165s/166s further west to replace the older class 150s (which are unlikely to be suitable for the next franchise), with newer stock (such as 185s) introduced on services such as Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Could SWR even introduce 185s, given they already operate electric desiros, on the unelectrified routes currently using 158s/159s?

GWR have enough stock (well on paper) to cover everything for the foreseeable future. These suggestions are now speculation

 

[Chester1]

In common with the other non-PRM stock TOCs, the DfT has asked GWR to apply to it for stock retention into the early months of/mid 2020.

For GWR this means the cl.143 stock. The GTi conversion programme should have enabled all 11 sets to be in by timetable change (and release all the cl.143) but that now looks like being only 9 in service for December with the other 2 entering service in the new year. The Turbo mods programme should have ended by now but that was elongated (with DfT permission) to release up Turbos to cover for the lack of electrification. The 769 units should have provided, amongst other things, cover for 2 x Turbos being away on Mods until mid 2020 but the delivery of the first 769 unit seems to be slipping into 2020. Late delivery of the 769 units has no other effect on the original December 2019 deployment plan which was compiled when the cl.769 units were not factored in.

So it looks as if the cl.143 units, if the DfT approve it, will be around for a few months after 31/12/19. The "fiddle" the DfT are employing elsewhere is to pair up a PRM unit with a non-PRM unit so the train always has PRM accommodation and the on board staff are there to ensure people get in the "right" part.

Very interesting! Thank you. We are now one announcement (by TfW) away from all 143s and 144s being in service early next year. 79 x 142s scrapped but 23 x 143s and 23 x 144s staying for a few months would be a decent outcome at this stage.

 

[krus_aragon]

In common with the other non-PRM stock TOCs, the DfT has asked GWR to apply to it for stock retention into the early months of/mid 2020.

Interesting. Is any of this correspondence (or related statements) in the public domain?

(I'm aware that EMR's MD has stated publicly that their 153s are sticking around, coupled to PRM stock.)

 

[hwl]

Interesting. Is any of this correspondence (or related statements) in the public domain?

(I'm aware that EMR's MD has stated publicly that their 153s are sticking around, coupled to PRM stock.)

Everytime someone mentions EMR and older rolling stock I always think of the scrap firm first!

 

[Trainfan061193]

Regarding the current situation with the 769s it wouldn’t surprise me if GWR don’t get theirs in time. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the 143s get a derogation too as it looks very likely now.

 

[PHILIPE]

Regarding the current situation with the 769s it wouldn’t surprise me if GWR don’t get theirs in time. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the 143s get a derogation too as it looks very likely now.

Scroll back to Post #14

 

[TJDevon]

GWR have enough stock (well on paper) to cover everything for the foreseeable future. These suggestions are now speculation

I wouldn't argue with this fact but when 20 x 150/2s are needed for the Devon and Cornwall branch services from December and GWR has just 20 there isn't much fat! The two 150/0's save the day to some extent and retention of the 143s (or some of them at least) would certainly provide further backup. Perhaps going slightly off topic, my understanding is the 150/0s and the three Angel owned 150/2s have to leave GWR sometime in the future. This would certainly cause issues and if it were to happen anytime soon could mean that the 143s will be around even longer.....

 

[Energy]

I wouldn't argue with this fact but when 20 x 150/2s are needed for the Devon and Cornwall branch services from December and GWR has just 20 there isn't much fat! The two 150/0's save the day to some extent and retention of the 143s (or some of them at least) would certainly provide further backup. Perhaps going slightly off topic, my understanding is the 150/0s and the three Angel owned 150/2s have to leave GWR sometime in the future. This would certainly cause issues and if it were to happen anytime soon could mean that the 143s will be around even longer.....

GWR only have 19 150/2s. If they need 20 from December they are going to be struggling.

 

[TJDevon]

I make it 20:-
150202 150243
150207 150244
150216 150246
150219 150247
150221 150248
150232 150249
150233 150261
150234 150263
150238 150265
150239 150266
Am I wrong?

 

[Trainfan061193]

I did get told a while back when doing work experience at EXD that the 3 First Group asset 143s were possibly be going to be kept as reserves from December but I was then told on WNXX and Twitter that wouldn’t be the case but with the ongoing delays to the 769s and deliveries of the Castle sets this may now be the case, I also wonder if the Porterbrook sets will now be included in any derogations if it’s allowed by the DfT? Only time will tell.

 

[PHILIPE]

I make it 20:-
150202 150243
150207 150244
150216 150246
150219 150247
150221 150248
150232 150249
150233 150261
150234 150263
150238 150265
150239 150266
Am I wrong?

You are right. I thought it was 19 off the top of my head but realised that 150207 came as an additional from Northern to replace the 2 odd vehicles had helped to form the 1509xx. These being 57209 and 57212 which went to Northern