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Gwynedd council don't want Mt Snowdon to be called Snowdon anymore

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peters

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It follows a motion brought by a Gwynedd county councillor that Snowdonia National Park authorities be asked to only refer to Snowdon as Yr Wyddfa, and Snowdonia as Eryri.


I can only see this resulting in confusion and Welsh names being incorrectly spelt. Maybe the Gwynedd council have a money surplus so can spend money changing signs so the English speakers get lost when trying to find the way? I also don't think the Welsh government would take kindly if TfGM said trains coming into Manchester must only show the English name for Manchester and not the Welsh name as well.
 
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GusB

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So a Welsh council wants a Welsh mountain to be known by its Welsh name. I really don't see a problem with that! You wouldn't insist that the French renamed Mont Blanc as the White Mountain, would you?
 

peters

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So a Welsh council wants a Welsh mountain to be known by its Welsh name. I really don't see a problem with that! You wouldn't insist that the French renamed Mont Blanc as the White Mountain, would you?

Actually the mountain you are referring to is partly in France and partly in Italy and is officially called Monte Bianco as well as Mount Blanc but as more people speak French than Italian it's French name is better known. So given English is an official language in Wales and the more widely spoken language worldwide, I don't get your point.
 

yorksrob

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I'm quite comfortable with the sort of bi-lingual naming conventions we have across the UK already including Wales. I don't see why they want it to be called only by it's Welsh name.

If Cardiff can be named in two languages, why not Snowdon ?
 

Starmill

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It's worthy of note that the name Yr Wyddfa is in common use today in the area on signs, shops, road names and so on.
 

peters

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What exactly is wrong with it being known by the Welsh name?

Nothing wrong with using the Welsh name but why do they need to ban use of the English name, when it's the English name most people know it by?

Presuming you are a Welsh taxpayer are you happy that your money is being spent discussing dropping bilingual names in favour of Welsh names and then possibly replacing signs and reprinting literature and that it's a higher priority than some of the other things they could spend the money on? I recall as part of a TV programme on council funding a while back they had a Scottish focus group and asked them about whether they thought spending money on new bilingual English and Scottish Gaelic signage was a good idea and the most favourable response they got was from someone who said that if it means replacing old faded signs with nice new shiny ones then I'll be in favour of it.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Sitting at my PC and looking out the window I can see Moel Faban, Moel Wnion, Gyrn Wigau, Drosgl, Carnedd Llewelyn etc in the Carneddau range...non of the thousands who come here each year to walk and climb this fantastic range will ever consider using their English names. I consider it perfectly acceptable to call Yr Wyddfa by its correct name, it really is an anomaly at the moment!
 

LAX54

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So a Welsh council wants a Welsh mountain to be known by its Welsh name. I really don't see a problem with that! You wouldn't insist that the French renamed Mont Blanc as the White Mountain, would you?
But Mont Blanc is in a non English area, Wales is part of the UK, and the main language is English, so I see no issues with dual names, It's been Snowdon since the year dot !
 

PR1Berske

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I'm quite comfortable with the sort of bi-lingual naming conventions we have across the UK already including Wales. I don't see why they want it to be called only by it's Welsh name.

If Cardiff can be named in two languages, why not Snowdon ?

Cardiff is a strange one. It has origins in Caerdyf which suggests a connection to "Taff". This looks like the English speakers approximated it to "Cardiff" only for the Welsh to approximate this as Caerdydd which uses the Welsh word for "day", rendering the translation rather meaningless!
 

XAM2175

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But Mont Blanc is in a non English area, Wales is part of the UK, and the main language is English, so I see no issues with dual names, It's been Snowdon since the year dot !
Technically, the legal official language of Wales is Welsh and Welsh only, by virtue of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 stating that "the Welsh language has official status in Wales" without any equivalent status being provided for English.
 

NorthOxonian

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But Mont Blanc is in a non English area, Wales is part of the UK, and the main language is English, so I see no issues with dual names, It's been Snowdon since the year dot !
It should be noted that Gwynedd is (I believe) a majority Welsh speaking area - it's not like most of the south where pretty much everyone just speaks English.

That said this is still ridiculous. The vast majority of visitors know it as Snowdon, calling it something different will just cause confusion. If you really want to have it called Eryri, that's fine, but you'll probably need to call it Snowdon/Eryri for a few decades to allow people to gradually adjust.
 

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Really couldn’t care less about the fallout. As far as I’m concerned Welsh is a language indigenous to the UK and I don’t get the opposition to it.
 

peters

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Sitting at my PC and looking out the window I can see Moel Faban, Moel Wnion, Gyrn Wigau, Drosgl, Carnedd Llewelyn etc in the Carneddau range...non of the thousands who come here each year to walk and climb this fantastic range will ever consider using their English names. I consider it perfectly acceptable to call Yr Wyddfa by its correct name, it really is an anomaly at the moment!

Yet if someone said they climbed Yr Wyddfa, most people would have no idea what they climbed other than being able to guess that they climbed a mountain in Wales.

With the British renaming Cobh in Ireland as Queenstown I fully understand why the Irish changed the name back but they did that as soon as they got independence. Why does someone think it's a good idea to drop the English name for Snowdon now?

Technically, the legal official language of Wales is Welsh and Welsh only, by virtue of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 stating that "the Welsh language has official status in Wales" without any equivalent status being provided for English.

Yet English and Welsh are official languages for the United Kingdom and Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

If you really want to have it called Eryri, that's fine, but you'll probably need to call it Snowdon/Eryri for a few decades to allow people to gradually adjust.

I see it's already causing confusion as the BBC article states Eryri is the Welsh name for Snowdonia (the national park which includes Snowdon).

Really couldn’t care less about the fallout. As far as I’m concerned Welsh is a language indigenous to the UK and I don’t get the opposition to it.

I'm not complaining about the Welsh name being used by Welsh speakers and I don't think anyone else is. What's bizarre is they want people to stop using the English name when that's the name the majority know the mountain by. Like I suggested in an earlier post how can the Welsh justify putting Manceinion on the front of trains going to Manchester and then say the English have to learn the name Yr Wyddfa? If Manchester needs an English and a Welsh name then so does Snowdon.
 

Domh245

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There's nothing wrong with them wanting the mountain and the park to only be called by their Welsh names, but they shouldn't be surprised if they continue to be known by their English names for several decades at least, as that's what people know and simply changing the names won't change it in people's heads
 

yorksrob

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Technically, the legal official language of Wales is Welsh and Welsh only, by virtue of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 stating that "the Welsh language has official status in Wales" without any equivalent status being provided for English.

I wouldn't interpret the act that way at all. The phrase "the Welsh language has official status in Wales" doesn't state anything about other languages not having official status in Wales. Infact other parts of the act directly imply the official status of English:

1 (2) (b) which states that Welsh should be treated "no less favourably than the English language"

1 (4) "This measure does not affect the status of the English language in Wales"
 

XAM2175

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I wouldn't interpret the act that way at all. The phrase "the Welsh language has official status in Wales" doesn't state anything about other languages not having official status in Wales.
Which is exactly my point - the measure doesn't affect the status of the English language in Wales, so as there is no measure or act conveying any de jure official status on English (as opposed to continuing its de facto status) it is only Welsh that holds that status.

It's an extremely pedantic point, I'll grant you, but that shouldn't surprise anybody here :p
 

Arglwydd Golau

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That said this is still ridiculous. The vast majority of visitors know it as Snowdon, calling it something different will just cause confusion. If you really want to have it called Eryri, that's fine, but you'll probably need to call it Snowdon/Eryri for a few decades to allow people to gradually adjust.
I don't think it's ridiculous at all! It isn't all about visitors either, but I do agree with you that for some time both names may have to have equal prominence. I do recall when our local DGH was opened around 1984 it was named Ysbyty Gwynedd/Gwynedd Hospital...the latter never caught on and was dropped very quickly...might take a little longer for Eryri/Snowdon though!
 

yorksrob

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Cardiff is a strange one. It has origins in Caerdyf which suggests a connection to "Taff". This looks like the English speakers approximated it to "Cardiff" only for the Welsh to approximate this as Caerdydd which uses the Welsh word for "day", rendering the translation rather meaningless!

Yes, I expect that there are a lot of place names around the world, based on dodgy translations. All adds to the richness :lol:

Which is exactly my point - the measure doesn't affect the status of the English language in Wales, so as there is no measure or act conveying any de jure official status on English (as opposed to continuing its de facto status) it is only Welsh that holds that status.

It's an extremely pedantic point, I'll grant you, but that shouldn't surprise anybody here :p

I expect law students could have a wry old time discussing it.

From my personal point of view, I'm glad that Yr Wyddfa is on the signs and maps and souvenirs, however I also like Snowdon and its down to earth familiarity and I think that there's something a bit iffy about trying to erase it from the linguistic culture.
 

Meole

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Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa is surely a more attractive proposition for tourists than the long winded Snowdon Mountain Railway denomination.
 

peters

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Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa is surely a more attractive proposition for tourists than the long winded Snowdon Mountain Railway denomination.

Which one has meaning for a tourist from America?

Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa might look nice on a souvenir model train but Snowdon Mountain Railway on a brown road sign is more likely to get passengers.
 

Meole

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Tourists expect road signs in the language of the country, Swiss rack railways advertise their presence in German or French, any American coming across the pond expects foreign languages and indeed will enjoy the culture, Wales is not England.
 

DynamicSpirit

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So a Welsh council wants a Welsh mountain to be known by its Welsh name. I really don't see a problem with that! You wouldn't insist that the French renamed Mont Blanc as the White Mountain, would you?

The problem is that they are expecting it to be known by its Welsh name even when you are communicating in English. I see no problem whatsoever with them insisting that its name in Welsh is Yr Wyddfa - but what they are proposing is more analogous to - say - the German Government insisting that British people must always refer to Cologne as Köln (the city's name in German) even when speaking in English, or to - say - the UK Government telling the French that, even when they are speaking in French, they must refer to London as 'London' and never as Londres (the French name for it). It's totally daft!
 

johnnychips

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You will have to give us pronunciation guides, then. I do know the Welsh pronunciation, but if I didn’t I’d be saying something like Wire Wide Far and erm... let’s have a go... Error Rye :D
 

Meole

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The problem is that they are expecting it to be known by its Welsh name even when you are communicating in English. I see no problem whatsoever with them insisting that its name in Welsh is Yr Wyddfa - but what they are proposing is more analogous to - say - the German Government insisting that British people must always refer to Cologne as Köln (the city's name in German) even when speaking in English, or to - say - the UK Government telling the French that, even when they are speaking in French, they must refer to London as 'London' and never as Londres (the French name for it). It's totally daft!
When you are in Germany you would purchase a ticket to Koln not Cologne, English is no longer the everyday language in Gwynedd, most of Wales is now moving to Welsh only education.
 

Butts

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So a Welsh council wants a Welsh mountain to be known by its Welsh name. I really don't see a problem with that! You wouldn't insist that the French renamed Mont Blanc as the White Mountain, would you?

Don't tell me you want Ben Nevis renamed Beinn Nibheis at the same time ?

Tokenistic nonsense :E

Wheres Edward Plantagenet when you need him ? - probably with his Scottish allies in Elgin.
 
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hst43102

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When you are in Germany you would purchase a ticket to Koln not Cologne, English is no longer the everyday language in Gwynedd, most of Wales is now moving to Welsh only education.
But English is still the majority language of Wales as a whole?
 

Merle Haggard

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This subject was the subject of an article in an on line version of a national newspaper, which referred to a member of the Welsh Language Society with the interesting name of Ffred Ffransis. Wiki suggested that he was born as Fred Francis.
So not all Welsh proper names are unrecognisable from their Anglicised version...
 

PR1Berske

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Don't tell me you want Ben Nevis renamed Beinn Nibheis at the same time ?

Tokenistic nonsense :E

Wheres Edward Plantagenet when you need him ? - probably with his Scottish allies in Elgin.
Gwynedd is majority Welsh speaking so there's no tokenism about it. The Highlands are not majority Gaelic speaking so asking to promote the original or local name would be unusual.
(Were it on Eiliean Siar that would be another matter)
 

yorksrob

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Gwynedd is majority Welsh speaking so there's no tokenism about it. The Highlands are not majority Gaelic speaking so asking to promote the original or local name would be unusual.
(Were it on Eiliean Siar that would be another matter)

But is it not the case that Cardiff is majority English speaking, so the equivalent would be for someone to campaign to stop the Welsh name for Cardiff being used and displayed on signs etc.
 
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