Gwynedd council don't want Mt Snowdon to be called Snowdon anymore

[peters]

Tourists expect road signs in the language of the country, Swiss rack railways advertise their presence in German or French, any American coming across the pond expects foreign languages and indeed will enjoy the culture, Wales is not England

English is spoken in Wales. Ontario, Canada is predominantly English speaking but in Ottawa everything is in both French and English as it's the capital and just across the water from a French speaking area. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact it would be wrong if Ottawa only had English signs.

If you think tourist signs are only in the local language you've not been to many countries. There's plenty of English signs around the Dalmatian coast for instance and just as well given how many tourists go there who don't speak any Croatian or any similar language! It's one thing expecting Spanish speakers to read Portuguese signs, it's another expecting tourists to understand signage in a language very few people speak.

 

[PR1Berske]

But is it not the case that Cardiff is majority English speaking, so the equivalent would be for someone to campaign to stop the Welsh name for Cardiff being used and displayed on signs etc.

A fair observation. I suspect the use of Caerdydd all over the city has much to do with it being the capital city and site of Senedd Cymru, as much tourism and branding as practical. Put the Welsh for "Cardiff Castle" in fancy faux-Medieval font on the side and you've got a queue of tourists in no time (social distancing and mask wearing ones, of course).

 

[krus_aragon]

you really want to have it called Eryri, that's fine, but you'll probably need to call it Snowdon/Eryri for a few decades to allow people to gradually adjust

A few have mentioned this, but for clarity:
Eryri is the name for the mountain range (Snowdonia)
Yr Wyddfa is the name for the mountain (Snowdon)

Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa is surely a more attractive proposition for tourists than the long winded Snowdon Mountain Railway denomination.

The local (colloquial) name for it is "Trên Bach yr Wyddfa" - Snowdon's little train.

Don't tell me you want Ben Nevis renamed Beinn Nibheis at the same time ?

My knowledge of Scots Gaelic is limited, but that seems to me to be the same name, but with different spelling/pronunciation. Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa is a bit closer to the Ayres Rock/Uluru situation: two totally different names.

 

[peters]

When you are in Germany you would purchase a ticket to Koln not Cologne, English is no longer the everyday language in Gwynedd, most of Wales is now moving to Welsh only education.

I've been on the S-Bahn between Cologne and Cologne Airport it's announced and displayed in both English and German, despite English not being an official language in Germany. Also you can select an English option on the machine to buy your ticket.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

More Guardian clickbait. I favour putting Welsh first, but I have not been up Yr Wyddfa for many years. Other mountains with fewer than 600 000 visitors per year are available.

 

[peters]

More Guardian clickbait. I favour putting Welsh first, but I have not been up Yr Wyddfa for many years. Other mountains with fewer than 600 000 visitors per year are available.

It's actually BBC.co.uk, who seem to be doing a good job of posting regional and lifestyle articles on their site rather than any investive journalism

 

[Ediswan]

I do recall when our local DGH was opened around 1984 it was named Ysbyty Gwynedd/Gwynedd Hospital...the latter never caught on and was dropped very quickly...might take a little longer for Eryri/Snowdon though!

Numerous venues in Wales take advantage of the different word order to avoid repeating the proper name. Here that would be "Ysbyty Gwynedd Hospital".

More Guardian clickbait. I favour putting Welsh first, but I have not been up Yr Wyddfa for many years.

The local preference sometimes shows in the road markings. Some areas are ARAF SLOW. Others are SLOW ARAF.

 

[Master Cutler]

Anglesey is generally known by the name Ynys Mon and most non Welsh speakers there know it by both names.
I think the same will happen with Yr Wyddfa and Snowdon, both names will be in regular usage.
Perhaps we will eventually take a cable tram trip up Y Gogarth when we visit Llandudno.

 

[tbtc]

More Guardian clickbait

I'm not sure why you are blaming the Guardian, given that the OP is a link to the BBC website and that it's about...

a motion brought by a Gwynedd county councillor

...so this is a news site reflecting the fact that an elected representative wants to stop the use of bi-lingual names being used for a major tourist attraction.

The Authority are going to consider the proposal...

the park authority said a task group would consider the proposal.

Snowdonia National Park Authority (SNPA) said the motion was not discussed at a meeting on Wednesday as it would be considered by its task group, set up to adapt guidelines on the use of Welsh place names.

...so I don't think it's "clickbait", it's accurately reflecting what elected representatives are planning to do/ discuss(?).

I've no problem with referring to it by it's Welsh name - I just think there's a bit of double standards in terms of insisting that some things are only Welsh but also demanding everything elsewhere in Wales has to be bi-lingual - it feels more like something that will play well with a certain type of voter in the Senedd elections (the vast majority of tourists who visit the mountain won't be voting, so you're not going to lose their votes).

Personally, I think there's a difference between "promote the Welsh name predominantly" and "antagonise people by refusing to use the English name" - and this looks more like the second category than the first - but you'll probably do well in the election by being seen to be a bit provocative and parochial - that's the world we live in.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I really love the Welsh place and hill names on OS maps. Mind, the English names on maps of the Pennines are great too.

Does Llandudno even have an English name?

 

[krus_aragon]

I really love the Welsh place and hill names on OS maps. Mind, the English names on maps of the Pennines are great too.

Does Llandudno even have an English name?

I think the nearest you'll get is the English names for the Great Orme just north of it, or St George's Bay immediately west. Both names given by passing mariners, I presume.

(The name featured in the St George's Bay and Harbour Railway Company, which first tried to become the railhead for Ireland - avoiding the tricky crossings of the Conwy river and the Menai straits - and then got repurposed into developing Llandudno as a holiday resort.)

 

[westv]

Ridiculous if you ask me. Use the English name if you speak English and use the Welsh name if you speak Welsh.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ridiculous if you ask me. Use the English name if you speak English and use the Welsh name if you speak Welsh.

There isn’t going to be a law banning you or me from saying “Snowdon”.

 

[Master Cutler]

I don't think people will be expected to use the full name Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch for the station, or the English translation.

 

[birchesgreen]

Numerous venues in Wales take advantage of the different word order to avoid repeating the proper name. Here that would be "Ysbyty Gwynedd Hospital".


The local preference sometimes shows in the road markings. Some areas are ARAF SLOW. Others are SLOW ARAF.

I've always thought this Araf bloke needs to get a move on.

 

[nlogax]

This does remind me of something..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm

When officials asked for the Welsh translation of a road sign, they thought the reply was what they needed.

Unfortunately, the e-mail response to Swansea council said in Welsh: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated".

 

[peters]

Ridiculous if you ask me. Use the English name if you speak English and use the Welsh name if you speak Welsh.

There isn’t going to be a law banning you or me from saying “Snowdon”.

Well yes people can call a mountain whatever they want but it's the local politicians who decide what name is on signposts and maps, so you can tell your friends you're going to climb Snowdon but under the proposal which has been put forward you would have to learn the name Yr Wyddfa and know that the names given by @Arglwydd Golau in an earlier post are not the mountain you are heading to.

Shutlingsloe gets called the Cheshire Matterhorn locally due to it looking a bit like a small version of the Matterhorn in Switzerland but if Cheshire East Council decided to stop using the name Shutlingsloe it would cause unnecessary confusion.

This does remind me of something..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm

Which proves not all Welsh people speak the Welsh language.

 

[ABB125]

This does remind me of something..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm



View attachment 95283

Brilliant!

 

[tomwills98]

Well yes people can call a mountain whatever they want but it's the local politicians who decide what name is on signposts and maps, so you can tell your friends you're going to climb Snowdon but under the proposal which has been put forward you would have to learn the name Yr Wyddfa and know that the names given by @Arglwydd Golau in an earlier post are not the mountain you are heading to.

Shutlingsloe gets called the Cheshire Matterhorn locally due to it looking a bit like a small version of the Matterhorn in Switzerland but if Cheshire East Council decided to stop using the name Shutlingsloe it would cause unnecessary confusion.



Which proves not all Welsh people speak the Welsh language.

As mentioned earlier, you can still call it Snowdon.... But, oh no! You'd have to learn some basic words and phrases when traveling to a country that speaks a different language

 

[westv]

As mentioned earlier, you can still call it Snowdon.... But, oh no! You'd have to learn some basic words and phrases when traveling to a country that speaks a different language

They don't speak just Welsh so why the need to force one name in one language? How many signs would they have to change and how much would it cost?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

In Gwynedd Welsh is generally first, elsewhere English is often first. The matter was reported by the Guardian as well as the the bbc, I wanted to read the article again but it has been displaced by an article about possible independence.

 

[tomwills98]

They don't speak just Welsh so why the need to force one name in one language? How many signs would they have to change and how much would it cost?

They? The locals pretty much all speak Welsh, and with compulsory Welsh lessons through school everyone should have a basic knowledge of the language

The whole extra cost from bilingual signage argument has been peddled for years. Printing stuff double sided or adding an extra sentence to a sign isn't some new, out of this world concept

 

[PHILIPE]

Penarth is actually a Welsh name (Head of a Bear) and this is how it is known universally, but the Wetherspoons in the town is named "The Bear's Head", the English translation. The name originated through the Headland resembling the shape of a Bear's Head when approaching from the sea.+

 

[peters]

As mentioned earlier, you can still call it Snowdon.... But, oh no! You'd have to learn some basic words and phrases when traveling to a country that speaks a different language

What's wrong with a sign saying

Yr Wyddfa
Mount Snowdon

Not everyone who is Welsh speaks Welsh.

Personally the way I find I pick up Welsh words is when they are on signs directly above or below the English. For example, seeing

200 llath
200 yards

under a sign means I learn llath means yards. If it just say 200 llath I wouldn't know if that meant yards, metres or some special Welsh measurement that we don't use in England.

Like I said to WelshBluebird are you happy with your taxes being spent on new signs manufactured solely for the purpose of removing the English and that removing the English is a higher priority than other things the council could be spending the money on?

 

[peters]

and with compulsory Welsh lessons through school everyone should have a basic knowledge of the language

Either those have only recently started or there's Welsh people in their mid-30s who have forgotten everything they learned in those Welsh lessons apart from a few basic greetings and what you see on signposts, like knowing the Welsh word for Wales. I worked in the same office as Welsh people for a number of years and I never heard any of them use the Welsh word for Snowdon, in fact they used the English word when discussing whether or not there should be a work trip to climb Snowdon.

The whole extra cost from bilingual signage argument has been peddled for years. Printing stuff double sided or adding an extra sentence to a sign isn't some new, out of this world concept

Why do the Welsh insist on translating English place names then? As proved in an earlier post not all councils have Welsh speaking staff so some have to outsource translations for signposts, which creates a lot of expense even when they don't make stupid errors on the signs.

In all likelihood if councils insist on not using the name Snowdon on directional signs they'll likely need to put up signs in English on the main routes saying For Mount Snowdon follow signs for Yr Wyddfa, which won't reduce expense even if you presume the signs would only be replaced by Welsh only ones when they are actually in need of replacement.

I'm beginning to wonder if this was intended as an April Fool's intended to get people talking about the use of the Welsh language but the councillor in question didn't get it out in time.

 

[westv]

They? The locals pretty much all speak Welsh, and with compulsory Welsh lessons through school everyone should have a basic knowledge of the language

The whole extra cost from bilingual signage argument has been peddled for years. Printing stuff double sided or adding an extra sentence to a sign isn't some new, out of this world concept

Your argument doesn't make sense. They want to cut out the bilingual signage for Snowden, not add it.

 

[tomwills98]

Your argument doesn't make sense. They want to cut out the bilingual signage for Snowden, not add it.

Augment still stands, cost of signage is pittance and can probably be combined into it's normal renewals. Takes two seconds to edit a webpage or poster before it goes to the printers.

Tryfan, Cribgoch, and Cadair Idris are all known by their Welsh names and climbers/walkers seem to manage fine.

 

[yorksrob]

Augment still stands, cost of signage is pittance and can probably be combined into it's normal renewals. Takes two seconds to edit a webpage or poster before it goes to the printers.

Tryfan, Cribgoch, and Cadair Idris are all known by their Welsh names and climbers/walkers seem to manage fine.

But it's not a justification for removing the name of Snowdon when bi-lingual names are used throughout Wales.

 

[tomwills98]

What is the concern, are you concerned you'll get lost halfway up the mountain because it says Yr Wyddfa? Tourists manage fine getting to Llandudno, Betws-y-coed, Penarth, Llanelli which have no formal Welsh name.

Uluru is still in the same place it's always been

 

[peters]

What is the concern, are you concerned you'll get lost halfway up the mountain because it says Yr Wyddfa? Tourists manage fine getting to Llandudno, Betws-y-coed, Penarth, Llanelli which have no formal Welsh name.

Uluru is still in the same place it's always been

The concern would surely be people going down the wrong roads to get to a car park at the base of Snowdon and causing congestion in small villages by getting lost.

When did Welsh politicians remove an English name for Llandudno that was more commonly used than the Welsh name? If they didn't, there's no comparison. Tourists going to Llandudno usually go up Great Orme, that sounds like an English language name to me.