H&C/Circle map - Moorgate interchange

[Leisurefirst]

Travelling on the Circle Line today the Hammersmith & City/Circle map opposite me caught my eye as there was no Northern Line interchange shown at Moorgate (just National Rail).
There was no oversticker and other interchanges with the Northern such as KXSP were shown.
The map further down the carriage had Moorgate with Northern Line interchange as normal.
Was this a temporary change because of escalator work that was not overstickered on this particular map?

 

[Dstock7080]

The smaller line diagrams at the car ends don’t show Moorgate as a Northern interchange but the longer versions do:

 

[Leisurefirst]

Thanks!
Why on earth is this the case?
An error?
Surely more people want to change at Moorgate for the Northern Line than want to go to Southend Airport from Liverpool Street?!

 

[Taunton]

Thanks!
Why on earth is this the case?
An error?
Surely more people want to change at Moorgate for the Northern Line than want to go to Southend Airport from Liverpool Street?!

I don't know how Southend Airport managed to get such prominence on TfL maps, here and elsewhere, given that it's hardly used anyway, but London City Airport, physically served by TfL through DLR and buses, does not - on the linked map Monument is a connecting point for the DLR directly to the airport.

Did Southend pay TfL for this promotion?

 

[Dstock7080]

Why on earth is this the case?
An error?

I would certainly guess a non-proofread error

 

[leytongabriel]

I don't know how Southend Airport managed to get such prominence on TfL maps, here and elsewhere, given that it's hardly used anyway, but London City Airport, physically served by TfL through DLR and buses, does not - on the linked map Monument is a connecting point for the DLR directly to the airport.

Did Southend pay TfL for this promotion?

Connections for trains to London Airports including 'London Southend' as it is officially known, have been marked up for some time now. It might just be an accidental ommission not to include Monument/Bank for London City Airport but it might be to do with London politics and rows over changing flight paths, increasing night flights and general expansion at London City which have been going on.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Connections for trains to London Airports including 'London Southend' as it is officially known, have been marked up for some time now. It might just be an accidental ommission not to include Monument/Bank for London City Airport but it might be to do with London politics and rows over changing flight paths, increasing night flights and general expansion at London City which have been going on.

Yes, given the "sectarian" absurdity of the underground system maps including Reading, but not the central London Thameslink route, then it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there's some "political" reason for an obvius interchange not being shown. (Or it's just a lack of proof-reading!)

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Yes, given the "sectarian" absurdity of the underground system maps including Reading, but not the central London Thameslink route

Including Thameslink would likely deter certain customers from using TfL services. TfL is in dire need of revenue; as it currently stands, TfL would be harmed, not helped, from including Thameslink on the TfL Services Map (Tube Map). Reading is effectively Crossrail and is ran by TfL, thus it makes sense for it to be shown on TfL Maps.

This is not the sole reason, but this is what the cynic in me believes to be a large contributing factor.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Including Thameslink would likely deter certain customers from using TfL services. TfL is in dire need of revenue; as it currently stands, TfL would be harmed, not helped, from including Thameslink on the TfL Services Map (Tube Map). Reading is effectively Crossrail and is ran by TfL, thus it makes sense for it to be shown on TfL Maps.

This is not the sole reason, but this is what the cynic in me believes to be a large contributing factor.

Yes - of course - it's because of different organisations needing to maximise their own income; rather than (since they should all be, primarily, providing a public service) collectively doing what makes most sense for travellers. In which case, a "mainline" route running through the middle of London and comlementing the tube system - eg the Thameslink core - would be on the tube map, and towns tens of miles outside London (likie Reading) wouldn't be.

 

[30907]

Connections for trains to London Airports including 'London Southend' as it is officially known, have been marked up for some time now. It might just be an accidental ommission not to include Monument/Bank for London City Airport but it might be to do with London politics and rows over changing flight paths, increasing night flights and general expansion at London City which have been going on.

Connections to Heathrow via the Piccadilly are likewise not shown on these maps. In both cases, the airport is served by part of the TfL rail network, and appears on the standard tube map. That IMO is a logical and sufficient explanation.

BTW Southend was (sensibly) added c.2011 when the new facilities opened.
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/car-line-diagrams

 

[Mojo]

Connections for trains to London Airports including 'London Southend' as it is officially known, have been marked up for some time now. It might just be an accidental ommission not to include Monument/Bank for London City Airport but it might be to do with London politics and rows over changing flight paths, increasing night flights and general expansion at London City which have been going on.

It is intentional and is nothing to do with “politics.”

It refers to “Trains to...” as well as has the National Rail black-bordered box so would not include an airport transfer by DLR.

You can see the car line diagram standard on the TfL website here: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-line-diagram-standard.pdf
Section 8 shows that this box is reserved for “Rail interchange with service to airport.”

 

[Tetchytyke]

Including Thameslink would likely deter certain customers from using TfL services.

Thameslink is not a TfL service, so why would it be on a TfL services map? It is on the rail connections map. It has nothing to do with revenue, especially as that's not how a lot of revenue is divided up.

Connections for trains to London Airports including 'London Southend' as it is officially known, have been marked up for some time now. It might just be an accidental ommission not to include Monument/Bank for London City Airport

Airports away from the TfL network- Luton, Stansted, Gatwick and Southend- are marked with a connections box. Airports on the network- Heathrow and City- are not. This is because the existing connections boxes explain what you need.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thameslink is not a TfL service, so why would it be on a TfL services map? It is on the rail connections map. It has nothing to do with revenue, especially as that's not how a lot of revenue is divided up.

Many users neither know nor care which outfit runs a rail line (it's often a historical accident anyway); they just want clarity of information. So it makes sense for non-Underground lines which cross the centre of London, interchange with various Underground lines, and have a tube-like service frequency, to be included on the tube map. There might be judgements to be made as to where to draw the line [sic!], such as Moorgate to Finsbury Park perhaps not, but surely the central core of Thameslink fits all criteria of lines which it would be helpfuo to include on tube maps. Remember that the Waterloo & City Line was on the tube maps when it was still a BR service, and very sensible that was too!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Thameslink is not a TfL service, so why would it be on a TfL services map

Overground, Trams, Cable Cars and TfL Rail aren't tube services, so why would they be on the Tube Map? It's because it complements themselves and the economy for it to be easily accessible.

 

[Taunton]

Notable thing about that link to the historic car diagrams is that the Jubilee Line link to City Airport by DLR at Canning Town was explicitly shown until 2010, but then removed.

 

[transmanche]

Thameslink is not a TfL service, so why would it be on a TfL services map?

It used to be. Certainly, by 1987, the 'core' section between Kentish Town and Moorgate/Elephant and Castle appeared on the tube map - along with the Waterloo & City line and the Northern City line.

Of course, both the Thameslink 'core' and W&C line (and quite possibly the Northern City line) charged LRT fares, rather than BR fares.

 

[ijmad]

Overground, Trams, Cable Cars and TfL Rail aren't tube services, so why would they be on the Tube Map? It's because it complements themselves and the economy for it to be easily accessible.

What we call the tube map has been a 'TfL services' map for over a decade now, ever since they put London Overground on it in 2013.

It's been collecting other TfL services ever since, like the Cable Car (2012), TfL rail (2015) and even Tramlink which started to be shown in 2016.

Arguably I suppose you could backdate that to 1987 when the DLR first appeared, although it was still showing several non-TfL British Rail routes at that time too, so wasn't really a TfL services map then.

 

[AlbertBeale]

What we call the tube map has been a 'TfL services' map for over a decade now, ever since they put London Overground on it in 2013.

It's been collecting other TfL services ever since, like the Cable Car (2012), TfL rail (2015) and even Tramlink which started to be shown in 2016.

Arguably I suppose you could backdate that to 1987 when the DLR first appeared, although it was still showing several non-TfL British Rail routes at that time too, so wasn't really a TfL services map then.

The logic, surely, is that where there are other rail services which have similar characteristics to London Underground - ie high frequency turn-up-and-go, running through or round the centre of London, and with good connections into the Underground, then it makes sense to include them on the "tube map" whoever is in charge of them. Similarly, it's silly to put services which don't match these criteria on that map, even if TFL do run them.

Hence, the central (or all Greater London) sections of Thameslink and Crossrail should be on the map [but not out of town parts!]; and hence at least the original parts of London Overground too. And Perhaps DLR makes sense, similarly. And possibly a few bits of the suburban rail system, like Moorgate.

I see Thameslink and Crossrail as being like the Parisian RER, which is generally shown on Metro maps. And the Overground might be seen as London's S-bahn, to complement the U-bahn of the Underground - and it's common in other countries to show U-bahn and S-bahn on the same map.

I know that of course the decision as to where to draw the line isn't completely obvious - so which bits of the main rail system are seen as having S-bahn or RER characteristics, and are added to the tube map, and which not, is obviously a matter of judgement. (Especially in south London, with so few tube lines.) But it's obvious - to me at least - that even if the best answer might have some fuzziness at the edges, the current situation (with Reading on the "tube map", and Thameslink not) is - in terms of comprehension for visitors, and in terms of functionality - simply bonkers.

 

[rebmcr]

With the Great Northern services from Moorgate tipped to go TfL before long, plus wider rumblings about a pandemic-triggered GB-wide renationalisation, it could be a problem that eventually solves itself.

 

[Ianno87]

The logic, surely, is that where there are other rail services which have similar characteristics to London Underground - ie high frequency turn-up-and-go, running through or round the centre of London, and with good connections into the Underground, then it makes sense to include them on the "tube map" whoever is in charge of them. Similarly, it's silly to put services which don't match these criteria on that map, even if TFL do run them.

Hence, the central (or all Greater London) sections of Thameslink and Crossrail should be on the map [but not out of town parts!]; and hence at least the original parts of London Overground too. And Perhaps DLR makes sense, similarly. And possibly a few bits of the suburban rail system, like Moorgate.

I see Thameslink and Crossrail as being like the Parisian RER, which is generally shown on Metro maps. And the Overground might be seen as London's S-bahn, to complement the U-bahn of the Underground - and it's common in other countries to show U-bahn and S-bahn on the same map.

I know that of course the decision as to where to draw the line isn't completely obvious - so which bits of the main rail system are seen as having S-bahn or RER characteristics, and are added to the tube map, and which not, is obviously a matter of judgement. (Especially in south London, with so few tube lines.) But it's obvious - to me at least - that even if the best answer might have some fuzziness at the edges, the current situation (with Reading on the "tube map", and Thameslink not) is - in terms of comprehension for visitors, and in terms of functionality - simply bonkers.

The Tube map is also TfL's (very famous) marketing tool. It influences which routes people unfamiliar with travel in London will take.

So TfL can of course "influence" people onto the routes it gets the revenue for...

 

[AlbertBeale]

The Tube map is also TfL's (very famous) marketing tool. It influences which routes people unfamiliar with travel in London will take.
...

Yes - and this isn't messed up too much providing only a few other rail lines, which most match the criteria I set out above, are added...

An all-lines all-systems map of all rail of any sort in Greater London (as also exists) is fine. The judgement comes in how much or how little of the non-LU bits are shown on what's primarily the tube map. I think that a few bits obviously should be - but not the ones that TfL choose to add at the moment.