Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[passmore]

The basic problem is that most of the "staff" who quote "Security/Health & Safety/Data Protection Act/etc/etc" don't have a clue about any of them. They are put in something resembling a uniform and immediately think they know everything and therefore have total power over these pesky "customers". This is not helped by the multiple layers of management above them being equally clueless.

This does not apply only to the railways but - everywhere.........

Two examples:
1. The recent banning of tennis fans from Murray Mount at Wimbledon for "Health & Safety" reasons (the grass was wet !!). This caused a senior executive in the Health & Safety Executive to write to the national press saying that this reason was rubbish. If the Wimbledon authorities were afraid of being sued if someone slipped on the wet grass then the reason was "Insurance" NOT H & S.
2. All those stupid announcements about not leaving luggage unattended on the trains/stations.
I recently found a TOC website (forgotten which one) which repeated this inane mantra - the very next sentence told you to put your luggage on the luggage racks at the end of the coach (the overhead ones are not safe for luggage because of .............you have one guess !!!!) - presume you then have to stand by the rack for the whole journey

The more railway enthusiasts, and the like, who challenge these morons, the better !

Health and safety laws in this country have less each day to do with personal safety and more to do with protecting a company against litigation. If someone fell on Murray Mount, then he/she should've been more careful, but instead, said person would probably sue the LTA or whoever for compensation (get one of those ambulance chasing no-win no-fee lawyers on board).
I wish you luck in challenging this.

 

[HugePilchard]

Health and safety laws in this country have less each day to do with personal safety and more to do with protecting a company against litigation.

A company cannot make a law. Laws are made by parliament.

H&S laws, apart from the ones that cover very specific scenarios, tend to be quite open ended. In particular, wording along the lines of "insofar as practical" tends to get used quite a lot.

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a law somewhere that could be interpreted to say that platform edge doors are required at all railway stations; I'm thinking that any legislation that covers fitting guards to dangerous machinery would be a good start. Now, apart from a few LU stations and light rail systems, this isn't the case - Why not? Because the cost of installing them, and the complications they'd cause would far outweigh the practicality.

The HSE in particular are running a bit of a war against "So-and-so isn't allowed because of 'elf and safety". Unfortunately, their message of taking a sensible approach to all of this doesn't mesh very well with the "it's 'elf and safety gone mad" message that so many tabloids are keen to push. The reality is often that event organisers or organisations aren't prepared to take even minimal risks, or put in the small amount of effort required to mitigate a risk, and prefer to just put a place off limits or say something is not permitted.

In fact, they ran a Myth of the Month series for a while, which was quite informative.

 

[GB]

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a law somewhere that could be interpreted to say that platform edge doors are required at all railway stations; I'm thinking that any legislation that covers fitting guards to dangerous machinery would be a good start. Now, apart from a few LU stations and light rail systems, this isn't the case - Why not? Because the cost of installing them, and the complications they'd cause would far outweigh the practicality.

You can't ignore laws becuase of convenience or cost, therefore I would suggest that the reason platform doors are not fitted to mainline stations is that there is no law requiring it.

 

[HugePilchard]

It's not a matter of ignoring the law. It's that the law is written in such a way that it reflects that some things may not be practical. To pick a random bit of regulation, I've just found the full text of PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations), and it's peppered with the words "to the extent that it is practicable to do so".

The onus is on the persons responsible (Network Rail, TOCs, private businesses, event organisers, local councils, whoever) to identify risks that could be reasonably expected to occur, and to take reasonable steps to safeguard against them.

 

[Jobsworth]

As a railwayman at a major station, I'm going to put my head above the parapet!

Enthusiasts and photographers are very welcome at my station, as long as they behave i.e. stick to the guidelines listed under another thread close to this one. I don't think these simple rules are too onerous. Does anyone disagree? Regrettably last weekend, one individual who deemed himself to be excluded from these ended up with a police record. Very sad but what do you do in the face of repeated disobedience.

It amazes me how many individuals are unaware of the no flash photography rule. Many are casual visitors who just want to take an opportunistic snap of a train, to which their ignorance comes as no great surprise, but the proper afficianados should know better. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a SPAD caused because someone has temporarily destroyed a driver's vision through their thoughtless action. Such an incident has been known to finish a driver's career, let alone the risk of a collision or derailment.

Anyone want to throw a bit of flak my way?

 

[anthony263]

As a railwayman at a major station, I'm going to put my head above the parapet!

Enthusiasts and photographers are very welcome at my station, as long as they behave i.e. stick to the guidelines listed under another thread close to this one. I don't think these simple rules are too onerous. Does anyone disagree? Regrettably last weekend, one individual who deemed himself to be excluded from these ended up with a police record. Very sad but what do you do in the face of repeated disobedience.

It amazes me how many individuals are unaware of the no flash photography rule. Many are casual visitors who just want to take an opportunistic snap of a train, to which their ignorance comes as no great surprise, but the proper afficianados should know better. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a SPAD caused because someone has temporarily destroyed a driver's vision through their thoughtless action. Such an incident has been known to finish a driver's career, let alone the risk of a collision or derailment.

Anyone want to throw a bit of flak my way?

Agree with your comments, I do sign in or let member of staff know i am on the station and what i am doing. Only time i dont is when i dont have a chance to say if i take a quick snap before getting on another train. Always check to make sure i have the flashh turned off before i take any photos. Have had someone use a flash when i was driving a bus so i can understand how train drivers feel.

 

[jon0844]

I never use the (phone) flash but I still want to know the rules on a commuter taking photos between trains, with a mobile phone camera. Should I sign in?

I can't sign out as there wouldn't be time with a connection time of 5 minutes or less.

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.

 

[nedchester]

There is no requirement to SIGN IN. If you follow the so called guidelines then you just let them know you are there. YOU DO NOT NEED TO SEEK PERMISSION because permission has already been given by the TOCs in the guidelines.

Too many people are giving these morons a power trip and enforcing the view that they need permission / it is illegal to take photos on stations. It is not.

 

[alexdodds]

There is no requirement to SIGN IN. If you follow the so called guidelines then you just let them know you are there. YOU DO NOT NEED TO SEEK PERMISSION because permission has already been given by the TOCs in the guidelines.

Too many people are giving these morons a power trip and enforcing the view that they need permission / it is illegal to take photos on stations. It is not.

Come on, at least admit there are one or two stations when you do need to sign in to photo/video. e.g. Blackpool North, London Liverpool Street

 

[jon0844]

Signing in seems silly, especially if you forget to sign out.

However, letting someone know what you're doing is simple courtesy. That said, if you see someone on a platform writing down numbers or taking photos of a train (not walking around taking photos of CCTV cameras, cabling, doorways, people entering codes on private areas) then it's pretty obvious what they're doing. To go and give them a hard time suggests you're just on a power trip.

Now if you do sign in, do they keep an eye on you because of the 'heightened security risk' they keep going on about. What if a terrorist signed in with a fake name, then got left alone for the rest of the day.

That's why signing in is pretty silly for the sake of keeping track of an enthusiast. The main reason is usually in case of an emergency and evacuation, but in the case of a station I presume they don't just go by this list or every passenger would need to sign in. I usually sign in and get a visitors badge when visiting a company, and would expect to sign in at a station more for getting access to areas normally off limits. And if I leave without signing out, what does the fire brigade/police do then? Assume I'm still on the property and start to panic?

A platform end isn't off limits, assuming you haven't passed the 'must not pass this point' sign - which is often before the actual end, simply as that is where a post was.

 

[alexdodds]

I admit it is not a requirement to sign in. I only do it when asked to. Its keeps the peace and also it means i can go in and say hello to whoever is in charge and have a nice friendly chat as well.

 

[Jobsworth]

That's a very sensible reply Alex. I quite enjoy spending a few minutes having a chat with our 'visitors'. If it's a quiet day with not too many about e.g. midweek, I do occasionally invite them to stand beyond the signs if it means getting a better photo without a post or signal in the way. If it's safe, everyone is being sensible and courteous, and I can spare a few minutes to oversee the situation then I see no problem. As someone said earlier, most of them have probably bought a ticket to travel so they are customers and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[142094]

I've been to King's Cross before to sign in, and was told that "I would become the responsibility of the Duty Manager" if I did sign in, and it would be his "problem" if I were "to cause an accident". So some people will ask you to sign in and others will do the opposite.

 

[Old Timer]

....Too many people are giving these morons a power trip and enforcing the view that they need permission / it is illegal to take photos on stations. It is not.

Railway stations are NOT public places. They are private places to which the public is allowed access. There is a considerable difference. That access may be withdrawn at any time, hence the lockable doors, shutters, etc.

The taking of photographs from a location that is classed as being private property is subject to the permission of the owner. The owner may extend and withdraw that permission at any time as they wish. In the case of a station, the station operator CAN implement a prohibition on the taking of photographs full stop. Indeed they do as the taking of photographs for advertising or other commercial reasons for example is forbidden.

That is how photography is FORBIDDEN at various places such as art galleries, museums, some concert halls, shopping centres/malls, etc, etc.

In strictly legal terms no-one other than a passenger or someone who is conducting Railway business may enter or be on a station. Indeed the provision still exists to charge someone with vagrancy if they continue to hang around when asked to leave.

A passenger changing trains may in strict terms only remain there for this purpose and the station operator can ask a passenger to leave and return at a later time if their connecting train is not expected for an extended period.

YOU have been told this before, yet I see you persist in propounding inaccuracies and personal views as if they were facts :roll:

I've been to King's Cross before to sign in, and was told that "I would become the responsibility of the Duty Manager" if I did sign in, and it would be his "problem" if I were "to cause an accident". So some people will ask you to sign in and others will do the opposite.

Sadly this is what you get when "Retail" types and burger bar managers secure responsible positions in the Railway. :roll: :roll:

This whole attitude is a modern one probably brought about by "retail" staff who want stations to be a reflection of their own values.

No doubt half a dozen anorac wearing grown ups running around fill the "Retail" types with horror.

Old style Railwaymen didn't give a monkeys frankly - as long as you were not bothering the women or frightening the children

 

[nedchester]

Railway stations are NOT public places. They are private places to which the public is allowed access. There is a considerable difference. That access may be withdrawn at any time, hence the lockable doors, shutters, etc.

The taking of photographs from a location that is classed as being private property is subject to the permission of the owner. The owner may extend and withdraw that permission at any time as they wish. In the case of a station, the station operator CAN implement a prohibition on the taking of photographs full stop. Indeed they do as the taking of photographs for advertising or other commercial reasons for example is forbidden.

That is how photography is FORBIDDEN at various places such as art galleries, museums, some concert halls, shopping centres/malls, etc, etc.

In strictly legal terms no-one other than a passenger or someone who is conducting Railway business may enter or be on a station. Indeed the provision still exists to charge someone with vagrancy if they continue to hang around when asked to leave.

A passenger changing trains may in strict terms only remain there for this purpose and the station operator can ask a passenger to leave and return at a later time if their connecting train is not expected for an extended period.

YOU have been told this before, yet I see you persist in propounding inaccuracies and personal views as if they were facts :roll:

The point is that permission HAS been given (by the TOC/NR through their guidelines) The 'Morons' I refer to are the security and station staff that try to claim otherwise. If I take a photograph on a private property it is not illegal however I can be asked to leave that property.

This country seems to love it's rules and regs on such harmless things as photography. Companies like to demonise such harmless pass times for no apparent reason. (The terrorism one doesn't wash) For many years people could take photographs in most places (except obviously sensitive areas like MOD areas) so why the paranoia now?

 

[Chester025]

Come on, at least admit there are one or two stations when you do need to sign in to photo/video. e.g. Blackpool North, London Liverpool Street

To be fair though trying to get onto the platforms at Blackpool North is like trying to enter the former East Germany.

The whole debacle has been thrashed out time and time again, the simple fact is that 20 - 30 years ago (even though I wasn't around then) there was next to none of this fuss. Why the need for all this signing in malarky I guess will never be apparent to me. Ho hum.

 

[Old Timer]

The point is that permission HAS been given (by the TOC/NR through their guidelines) The 'Morons' I refer to are the security and station staff that try to claim otherwise. If I take a photograph on a private property it is not illegal however I can be asked to leave that property.

In a form its probably best to say, there may well be reasons why a station supervisor or manager may not wish people to be on the station taking photographs, although I am hard pushed to think of one if the person signs in.

..This country seems to love it's rules and regs on such harmless things as photography. Companies like to demonise such harmless pass times for no apparent reason. (The terrorism one doesn't wash) For many years people could take photographs in most places (except obviously sensitive areas like MOD areas) so why the paranoia now?

On this I quite agree. It has to be said though that this love of rules and regulations became very pronounced after 1997 since when more than 4300 new laws were passed - more than 28 a day !

Did you know for example that if you fail to nominate a key holder to switch off a burglar alarm that trips whilst you are away from your house that the penalty for this is £1000 ?

None of the old Railwayman agree with this crazy interference with enthusiasts and photographers at all - certainly none who I know.

There is about as much chance of finding a terrorist wandering around the end of a platform as there is of finding pork pies at a Bar Mitzvah. They do not and never have operated in that manner. In any case they would quickly stand out from the normal end of the platform fraternity.

Countries that are not under the dead hand of Political Correctness suss them out rather better than we do. Unfortunately the liberals amongst the ruling class believe that those with ill intent are to be found amongs elderly middle class women and children, and that any form of profiling as the Americans call it is discrimination.

Had they been about in the War one would have soon heard of Groups springing up to protect the Nuns of the land :roll:

Sadly the educational standing of some of those who are tasked with "security" leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Only the other week I was next to our Pilot who was going through security and being searched the same as me.

The irony of searching the flight deck crew for prohibited articles with which they could bring down the plane is clearly lost on everyone from the very top to the occasional Neanderthal one finds occupying these posts.

Is it only me and the flight crew who find the whole scenario absurd ?

 

[Minilad]

Only the other week I was next to our Pilot who was going through security and being searched the same as me.

The irony of searching the flight deck crew for prohibited articles with which they could bring down the plane is clearly lost on everyone from the very top to the occasional Neanderthal one finds occupying these posts.

Is it only me and the flight crew who find the whole scenario absurd ?

No chance that a person intent on bringing down a plane could qualify as a pilot and get a job flying a commercial plane then ?

 

[nedchester]

In a form its probably best to say, there may well be reasons why a station supervisor or manager may not wish people to be on the station taking photographs, although I am hard pushed to think of one if the person signs in.

On this I quite agree. It has to be said though that this love of rules and regulations became very pronounced after 1997 since when more than 4300 new laws were passed - more than 28 a day !

Did you know for example that if you fail to nominate a key holder to switch off a burglar alarm that trips whilst you are away from your house that the penalty for this is £1000 ?

None of the old Railwayman agree with this crazy interference with enthusiasts and photographers at all - certainly none who I know.

There is about as much chance of finding a terrorist wandering around the end of a platform as there is of finding pork pies at a Bar Mitzvah. They do not and never have operated in that manner. In any case they would quickly stand out from the normal end of the platform fraternity.

Countries that are not under the dead hand of Political Correctness suss them out rather better than we do. Unfortunately the liberals amongst the ruling class believe that those with ill intent are to be found amongs elderly middle class women and children, and that any form of profiling as the Americans call it is discrimination.

Had they been about in the War one would have soon heard of Groups springing up to protect the Nuns of the land :roll:

Sadly the educational standing of some of those who are tasked with "security" leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Only the other week I was next to our Pilot who was going through security and being searched the same as me.

The irony of searching the flight deck crew for prohibited articles with which they could bring down the plane is clearly lost on everyone from the very top to the occasional Neanderthal one finds occupying these posts.

Is it only me and the flight crew who find the whole scenario absurd ?

I was a lifelong labour supporter but the last government introduced a ridiculous amount of laws and red tape (cos it's good for you isn't it?!). Many laws introduced following knee jerk reactions to certain events rather than really thinking things through. Fines for this fines for that and it is this attitude that gives security Hitlers their perceived power.

We also have the situation that companies have to risk assess for every eventuality 'what IF a photographer was a terrorist' maybe? They also try to have a one size fits all policy and anybody who doesn't follow policy and use their own common sense is in risk of discipline and/or dismissal. You get the 'I was only following orders' attitude - hence your pilot problem at the airport.

This government will be no better (despite its claims) which makes me very sad as I cannot see things getting any better any time soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair though trying to get onto the platforms at Blackpool North is like trying to enter the former East Germany.

The whole debacle has been thrashed out time and time again, the simple fact is that 20 - 30 years ago (even though I wasn't around then) there was next to none of this fuss. Why the need for all this signing in malarky I guess will never be apparent to me. Ho hum.

Top comment! (Erudite as ever!!)

 

[spark001uk]

Quick question, does anyone know the situation with EC now they've fitted barriers at KGX? In one part of their website they mention that passengers will "under normal circumstances not be allowed on the platform if not travelling", whilst in another part of their site, under FAQ, they say:

"If you are not travelling and have a valid reason to access the station platforms then please speak to a member of the gateline team who can issue you with a platform pass."


Does this mean photography is a valid reason, or is this allowing the decision to lay with the member of staff at the gateline, who may or may not allow it?

 

[ainsworth74]

They've not actually barriered the whole station yet it's still possible to get to platforms 6-8 without a ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Although at the moment it's arguably quite difficult to get to platform 8 at all.

 

[ainsworth74]

Although at the moment it's arguably quite difficult to get to platform 8 at all.

True I wandered into Kings Cross from St Pancras that way on Monday and did get quite a shock when I realized that I was walking over the tracks of platform 8 rather than platform 8 itself hock:

 

[jon0844]

You see, those people who said we should tarmac over the railways got their way. The walkway over platform 8 will soon be extended to Edinburgh!!

 

[ainsworth74]

You see, those people who said we should tarmac over the railways got their way. The walkway over platform 8 will soon be extended to Edinburgh!!

Could take a while to get to Edinburgh whilst walking mind...

 

[spark001uk]

Actually, can one still buy a platform ticket from ticket offices these days? Or did that get ditched along with everything else good in this country!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think they still exist but from what I've heard on here staff either a) don't know how to issue one or b) can't be bothered so just tell you to ask the gate line staff or c) don't think their supposed to issue them!

 

[spark001uk]

I only ask as I wonder if the issue of a platform ticket would then be deemed as acceptance of NR guidelines for rail enthusiasts, and require no further action regarding sign in / announcing presence etc?

 

[the sniper]

Indeed the provision still exists to charge someone with vagrancy if they continue to hang around when asked to leave.

You're correct that it's an offence, but it's nothing to do with vagrancy in cases like this. Anyone can be charged for failing to leave railway property after being asked to do so by a member of staff under Section 16 of the Railway Regulation Act 1840. It's also covered under Section 13(2) of the Railway Byelaws.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Actually, can one still buy a platform ticket from ticket offices these days? Or did that get ditched along with everything else good in this country!

leeds does i get them whenever i meet/see off my girlfriend. Newcastle dont they just let her on with me when she does same to me. Never had any issues. cept barriers dont accept platform tickets....