Halifax to Leeds now with 'via Bradford' restriction

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TUC

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I notice that Halifax to Leeds fares now have a 'via Bradford' restriction http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HFX&dest=LDS . I stand to be corrected but I don't think that restriction was there before. It does beg the question what the valid fare is for the occasional Leeds to Halifax train which does not go via Bradford, for example the 1926 Monday to Saturday.
 
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furlong

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Well, if it's a direct train then you likely don't get as far as needing to look at any routeing on the ticket.

I put this in the same category as ATOC's famous explanation that 'NOT LONDON' tickets may be valid via London:

The routes 'London' and 'not London' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Clear as mud, yes.
 

yorkie

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I wonder if they had DfT permission for this? Anyone want to find out?

The routeing on similar flows does not appear to have changed.
 

furlong

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It makes an interesting test because the route didn't exist at privatisation, and IIRC it took several years after opening for the routeing guide and then the fares to be updated appropriately.
 

Paul Kelly

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It does beg the question what the valid fare is for the occasional Leeds to Halifax train which does not go via Bradford, for example the 1926 Monday to Saturday.
National Rail Enquiries says you need to purchase a West Yorkshire Day Rover for that! (see attached)
 

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MikeWh

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Well, if it's a direct train then you likely don't get as far as needing to look at any routeing on the ticket.

Definitely the case for any permitted tickets, but is that necessarily the case for a routed ticket?
 

TUC

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National Rail Enquiries says you need to purchase a West Yorkshire Day Rover for that! (see attached)

Can you imagine trying to explain that to a passenger.

Guard- You need a different ticket to travel on this train
Passenger: Why? It's a Leeds to Halifax train and my ticket is from Leeds to Halifax
Guard: Yes but it's only valid via Bradford
Passenger: OK what's the fare for a single to Halifax on this route?
Guard: There isn't one.
 

bb21

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Can you imagine trying to explain that to a passenger.

Guard- You need a different ticket to travel on this train
Passenger: Why? It's a Leeds to Halifax train and my ticket is from Leeds to Halifax
Guard: Yes but it's only valid via Bradford
Passenger: OK what's the fare for a single to Halifax on this route?
Guard: There isn't one.

Not difficult to explain when the ticket states clearly "Via Bradford" or such like. Most passengers are more intelligent than you suggest.

The fare sold, should one not exist, would be a combination of fares.
 

TUC

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Not difficult to explain when the ticket states clearly "Via Bradford" or such like. Most passengers are more intelligent than you suggest.

The fare sold, should one not exist, would be a combination of fares.

My point is that, with a through train, passengers would reasonably expect a fare to be available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Definitely the case for any permitted tickets, but is that necessarily the case for a routed ticket?

That a question which had also occured to me. If the fare itself has a rourine restriction then presumably that overrides wider Routing Guide principles? Is that correct?
 

crehld

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My point is that, with a through train, passengers would reasonably expect a fare to be available.

Indeed they would. Why was the any permitted fare not just left alone and a new via Bradford fare created in addition to it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, if it's a direct train then you likely don't get as far as needing to look at any routeing on the ticket.

For a route on the ticket yes you do.

I put this in the same category as ATOC's famous explanation that 'NOT LONDON' tickets may be valid via London:

Wasn't that something rather different based around the most expensive routed ticket on a given flow (if more expensive than the Any Permitted) being a de-facto Any Permitted?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you imagine trying to explain that to a passenger.

Guard- You need a different ticket to travel on this train
Passenger: Why? It's a Leeds to Halifax train and my ticket is from Leeds to Halifax
Guard: Yes but it's only valid via Bradford
Passenger: OK what's the fare for a single to Halifax on this route?
Guard: There isn't one.

And that is what really hacks me off about restrictive routeing. I should be able to go any way I wish, and the railway should be able to calculate a fare for me to do so not involving piles of tickets with arbitrary splits.
 

yorkie

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Definitely the case for any permitted tickets, but is that necessarily the case for a routed ticket?
It's a grey area, but in practice customers are probably more likely not to be charged, than be charged.

It reminds me of the time an EMT Guard let someone off who had a "Not via Doncaster" ticket on a through Sheffield-Leeds train via Doncaster. She tried arguing initially "but we go via Doncaster..." but I think she realised the ridiculousness of the argument and relented.

To be honest I don't think Northern are going to be bothered by people going the long way round, but they are more likely to be bothered about people buying cheaper Season tickets and starting/finishing short (especially if the customer is TUC ;):lol:)

Put simply: if a train company like Northern doesn't like the rules, it will try to change the rules. And the DfT generally rolls over and lets them. It's not a level playing field and is a disgrace in my opinion.
Not difficult to explain when the ticket states clearly "Via Bradford" or such like. Most passengers are more intelligent than you suggest.

The fare sold, should one not exist, would be a combination of fares.
What combination would be sold? Until there is a way of calculating the cheapest combination there is a risk the customer will be overcharged, so I don't think any charge should be made without such assurances.
 

yorkie

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Gee thanks :)

Northern closed that one off before I could use it anyway.
Indeed, they succeeded in their mission to thwart you getting reasonable value fares!

At least strowger was able to benefit.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Well, if it's a direct train then you likely don't get as far as needing to look at any routeing on the ticket....

Definitely the case for any permitted tickets, but is that necessarily the case for a routed ticket?

A ticket may be used on a direct service between origin and destination (NRCoC Condition 13), but that does not necessarily mean a direct service between origin and destination is always valid.

NRCoC Condition 13 notes that a ticket can be restricted by route if the restriction is shown on the ticket.

....What combination would be sold?....

A combination agreed by both parties to be the cheapest combination of fares for the journey being made (or another ticket that would be valid for all of that journey), bearing in mind that ticket office staff are supposed to be impartial.
 
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kieron

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I wonder if they had DfT permission for this? Anyone want to find out?
Me, I'm interested in if they had WYCA permission for it. For the DfT to deny a PTE permission to do something when the PTEs are supposed to be responsible for the franchise may become awkward.
Not difficult to explain when the ticket states clearly "Via Bradford" or such like. Most passengers are more intelligent than you suggest.
There are a lot of routes in the area with "not via Leeds" tickets and "any permitted" tickets, and plenty with more complicated choices, such as between "via Leeds", "via Huddersfield" and "via Penistone". You can, of course, upgrade from one to another if you need to, and I'm sure some people are used to doing just that.

You then get on a Halifax train with a Halifax ticket, and are surprised by how much the guards asks you for.

This isn't like somewhere like Merseyside, where you quite often have a "via Liverpool" ticket, and nothing else available, even if you'd much prefer to go via Warrington instead.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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And that is what really hacks me off about restrictive routeing. I should be able to go any way I wish, and the railway should be able to calculate a fare for me to do so not involving piles of tickets with arbitrary splits.

Be careful what you wish for. Taken to its logical conclusion you could end up with long-distance fares having a large number of route variants to allow for every possibility. Think about, say, Eastbourne to Elgin. Indeed if Fares Managers were heavily swayed by posts on here they would probably be moving rapidly in that direction already. In reality the number of people genuinely affected by situations like this is very small. Swings and roundabouts.
 

Tetchytyke

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IIRC the 1926 service from Leeds is only advertised to Brighouse. It's not a service you would take through to Halifax. The route restriction has been put in place to avoid short-faring at other stations (to choose Mirfield, as a completely random example). I see no issue with it at all.

They could bring in an ANY PERMITTED at a higher fare, but that would just create confusion and would result in most people overpaying.
 

yorkie

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IIRC the 1926 service from Leeds is only advertised to Brighouse.
By use of 'false destination' you are right that many systems will show it as to Brighouse. But some systems will correctly show it as a through train to Halifax.

It's not a service you would take through to Halifax.
Why not? It arrives at the same time as the 1935. If it's in the platform and departing on time, it wouldn't make sense not to take it to spend another 9 mins on a platform and arrive at the same time.

The route restriction has been put in place to avoid short-faring at other stations (to choose Mirfield, as a completely random example). I see no issue with it at all.
:roll:
They could bring in an ANY PERMITTED at a higher fare, but that would just create confusion and would result in most people overpaying.
If they don't want it to be a permitted route then the routeing guide should be changed through the proper channels. They've not put the routeing of "Bradford" in to stop people using this one train.
 

Tetchytyke

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By use of 'false destination' you are right that many systems will show it as to Brighouse. But some systems will correctly show it as a through train to Halifax.

The train does a loop from Brighouse back to Leeds via Halifax. You're right that the operational destination is Halifax, where it immediately forms a Halifax-Leeds via Bradford train. I'm sure Northern could just change the operational destination to Brighouse...

[If they don't want it to be a permitted route then the routeing guide should be changed through the proper channels. They've not put the routeing of "Bradford" in to stop people using this one train.

They've put the routeing in to stop people from Mirfield, to choose a completely random example, using a loophole to use a cheaper ticket into Leeds. Normally travelling from Halifax to Leeds via Brighouse requires a change of train, as well as taking much longer.

IIRC the routeing guide isn't easily changed because the mileage isn't different enough.

My point was bringing in a higher priced ANY PERMITTED (perhaps at the same price as Mirfield-Leeds) would result in passengers overpaying by buying or being sold the wrong ticket.
 

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Why not? It arrives at the same time as the 1935. If it's in the platform and departing on time, it wouldn't make sense not to take it to spend another 9 mins on a platform and arrive at the same time.

.

Ironically my wife and daughter got on the 1926 a couple of weeks ago on their way from Leeds to Halifax (how they came to board it I'm not sure) and the guard advised that the 1935 was quicker but that both trains got in around the same time so they may as well stay on board.
 

yorkie

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The train does a loop from Brighouse back to Leeds via Halifax. You're right that the operational destination is Halifax, where it immediately forms a Halifax-Leeds via Bradford train. I'm sure Northern could just change the operational destination to Brighouse...
The service is from Leeds to Halifax, and that's all that really matters for the purpose of this discussion.


They've put the routeing in to stop people from Mirfield, to choose a completely random example, using a loophole to use a cheaper ticket into Leeds.
Changing the routeing guide (where appropriate) is a better solution to abolishing "Any Permitted" fares.
Normally travelling from Halifax to Leeds via Brighouse requires a change of train, as well as taking much longer.
Yes and sometimes people without cars may want to go a different route for all sorts of reasons.
IIRC the routeing guide isn't easily changed because the mileage isn't different enough.
The shortest route rule isn't part of the Routeing Guide. And if you are saying the mileage isn't much different via Brighouse, why are you so keen to support the removal of the route via Brighouse?
My point was bringing in a higher priced ANY PERMITTED (perhaps at the same price as Mirfield-Leeds) would result in passengers overpaying by buying or being sold the wrong ticket.
That is always a risk where there are multiple routeings. There are many journeys which have higher priced "Any Permitted" fares where the majority of people would want the cheaper routeing, such as Leeds to Sheffield or Leeds to Preston.
 

Andrew1395

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The mapped route is only via Bradford anyway, so a higher priced any permitted won't offer anything extra to the via Bradford routeing
 

bb21

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My point is that, with a through train, passengers would reasonably expect a fare to be available.

OK I didn't get that initially.

Yes, such an expectation would have been reasonable, but in the absence of such a through fare, there is a solution that exists.

What combination would be sold?

I don't know. The only thing I know is that selling a combination of fares is the official answer.

Maybe it is a question best addressed to the DfT, asking what mechanism for selling a combination of fares they approved, and what assurances they have put in place to protect passengers from being overcharged.

Me, I'm interested in if they had WYCA permission for it. For the DfT to deny a PTE permission to do something when the PTEs are supposed to be responsible for the franchise may become awkward.

There are a lot of routes in the area with "not via Leeds" tickets and "any permitted" tickets, and plenty with more complicated choices, such as between "via Leeds", "via Huddersfield" and "via Penistone". You can, of course, upgrade from one to another if you need to, and I'm sure some people are used to doing just that.

You then get on a Halifax train with a Halifax ticket, and are surprised by how much the guards asks you for.

This isn't like somewhere like Merseyside, where you quite often have a "via Liverpool" ticket, and nothing else available, even if you'd much prefer to go via Warrington instead.

I didn't say it was an ideal situation, but we all know that the fares system is pretty messed up. Perhaps someone can ask the DfT how they have allowed the situation to get so complicated, and whether it were their intention for the fares system to be so baffling to an average punter.

Someone can perhaps ask at the same time whether they approve of recently changes in fare routeings.
 

Harpers Tate

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How about a ticket from Bradford to Leeds as being suitable?
As this is a through train, it's bound to be a valid route - and one can start short (or end early) - right?
 

bb21

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How about a ticket from Bradford to Leeds as being suitable?
As this is a through train, it's bound to be a valid route - and one can start short (or end early) - right?

How big a can do you want to open? ;)
 

Starmill

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This happened a couple of years ago with some tickets from the Calder Valley line to some places on the Huddersfield line being routed 'Via Brighouse' to very very unintended effect. Perhaps nothing as stupid as the still not fixed Chesterfield to Huddersfield though, where tickets remain unavailable for the quickest route via Wakefield Westgate - Kirkgate.
 
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bradford758

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I am very surprised at this. Other tickets in the area I have noticed.
Bradford to Huddersfield has no 'direct' fare, only the general one permitted via Leeds.
Bradford to Wakefield has a 'direct' fare, 20 p cheaper! presumably for the Grand Central trains (I don't remember a fare available when the local Huddersfield extended through to Wakefield).
There is no 'direct' Bradford to Mirfield fare so this is priced at auch higher rate!

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kieron

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I don't know. The only thing I know is that selling a combination of fares is the official answer.
I have no personal experience of this, but I believe that may depend on which official you meet. I understand that some would be entitled to report you to their employer's prosecutors for travelling without a valid ticket.

I agree that it would be better if it was shown on tickets whether or not their use was restricted to trains which take routes passing through or avoiding particular locations.
This happened a couple of years ago with some tickets from the Calder Valley line to some places on the Huddersfield line being routed 'Via Brighouse' to very very unintended effect.
I notice that Halifax-Mirfield has an "any permitted" ticket as well as the "via Brighouse" one, but doesn't appear to have any valid routes which don't go through Brighouse. I don't know if the "any permitted" ticket was intended to be a "via Bradford" one or something like that.
Perhaps nothing as stupid as the still not fixed Chesterfield to Huddersfield though, where tickets remain unavailable for the quickest route via Wakefield Westgate - Kirkgate.
Perhaps not. There's no route between those stations via Wakefield Westgate - Kirkgate, but there is one (featured on the SY map) via Sheffield, Swinton, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Woodlesford, Normanton (avoiding Castleford), Wakefield Kirkgate, and Mirfield Barnsley and Penistone. I'm not exactly sure who'd pay £18.60 one way for it, though. This would, of course, also be valid with a "via Penistone" ticket.
 
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Spartacus

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The lack of an any permitted is what stands out about this, especially as travel from Cottingley (first station out of Leeds towards Dewsbury) to Halifax has the same fare via both Leeds and Brighouse!
 
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