Hall Farm Curve

[leytongabriel]

The Hall Farm Curve on the Lea Valley lines, linking the Chingford branch with the line from Stratford has come up again in local discussions. Here is an informal report back from a Waltham Forest Public Transport Consultation Group meeting held this week.


An interesting update on the Hall Farm Curve – the reinstatement of the junction north of Lea Bridge station to enable trains to run between Stratford and Chingford via Lea Bridge, St James, Walthamstow Central etc.. After a meeting this week of WF, TfL, Greater Anglia and National Rail the possibility of this link is now back on the agenda, with the Council’s earlier option for a station at Ruckholt somewhat side-lined. They spoke about making an amendment to the current draft Local Plan as a result. The Council will pay £10/15k to commission Network rail to do a desk survey/feasibility study to put in a Chingford to Stratford “shuttle “ aimed at two trains per hour. It was discussed that there was no capacity to continue the trains into Liverpool St. Third party funding would also be required to progress this – possibly from S106 and SIL monies. It was discussed that the study should be commissioned Jan 2022 and would take approx. 6 months to complete. The whole project IF approved would cost £40-50M and the design and construction period would take 5/6 years.

Given that most TfL Rail trains will be diverted underground to the Elizabeth line is it really the case that there would be no capacity for through running to Liverpool St say by the end of the decade?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Hall Farm Curve on the Lea Valley lines, linking the Chingford branch with the line from Stratford has come up again in local discussions. Here is an informal report back from a Waltham Forest Public Transport Consultation Group meeting held this week.


An interesting update on the Hall Farm Curve – the reinstatement of the junction north of Lea Bridge station to enable trains to run between Stratford and Chingford via Lea Bridge, St James, Walthamstow Central etc.. After a meeting this week of WF, TfL, Greater Anglia and National Rail the possibility of this link is now back on the agenda, with the Council’s earlier option for a station at Ruckholt somewhat side-lined. They spoke about making an amendment to the current draft Local Plan as a result. The Council will pay £10/15k to commission Network rail to do a desk survey/feasibility study to put in a Chingford to Stratford “shuttle “ aimed at two trains per hour. It was discussed that there was no capacity to continue the trains into Liverpool St. Third party funding would also be required to progress this – possibly from S106 and SIL monies. It was discussed that the study should be commissioned Jan 2022 and would take approx. 6 months to complete. The whole project IF approved would cost £40-50M and the design and construction period would take 5/6 years.

Given that most TfL Rail trains will be diverted underground to the Elizabeth line is it really the case that there would be no capacity for through running to Liverpool St say by the end of the decade?

I think the capacity problem through Stratford remains in the long term because the Lea Valley lines are on the wrong side of the station to get over the fast lines to the tracks with capacity freed up by Crossrail. They’d conflict with fast services on the flat in both directions, and it is those fast services that are planned to make use of increased capacity at Liverpool St. Then there’s all the conflicts with freight on the north side of the station as well.

 

[SynthD]

I think they mean the line through Clapton, or the peak time at Liverpool Street when there’s some Crossrail terminators.

 

[cle]

Good to see this back in early discussions. Makes a lot of sense given how that part of London has grown, and will continue to. And not just Stratford, but all the way up the Lea Valley.

It's a scheme a lot of folks were not supportive of on here. If Liverpool Street is not workable, for good reasons (and any more capacity could be better used) - a good compromise here could be an extension of the Overground. It's on the right side of the station, wired, about the right length - even if just 2tph for now, it'd provide some good east London connections (fun at Hackney and Dalston, Homerton hospital, H&I connections) for new users, and of course link Chingford with Stratford.

Who knows, if it was successful enough and gave new opportunities, including feeding onto Crossrail/everything at Stratford - you might get away with trimming Liverpool St-Chingford to 2-3tph (Enfield cope), and use that path elsewhere.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Good to see this back in early discussions. Makes a lot of sense given how that part of London has grown, and will continue to. And not just Stratford, but all the way up the Lea Valley.

It's a scheme a lot of folks were not supportive of on here. If Liverpool Street is not workable, for good reasons (and any more capacity could be better used) - a good compromise here could be an extension of the Overground. It's on the right side of the station, wired, about the right length - even if just 2tph for now, it'd provide some good east London connections (fun at Hackney and Dalston, Homerton hospital, H&I connections) for new users, and of course link Chingford with Stratford.

Who knows, if it was successful enough and gave new opportunities, including feeding onto Crossrail/everything at Stratford - you might get away with trimming Liverpool St-Chingford to 2-3tph (Enfield cope), and use that path elsewhere.

You couldn't extend the overground without major works at Stratford to make platforms 1 and 2 through platforms. You can't use 11 and 12 practically for that because of conflicts with freight movements between GEML and North London line.

This issue has been assessed in the recent route utilisation study. To support any higher frequency of service through Lea Bridge, whether via Hall Farm or via Meridian Water, you need additional platforms at Stratford for terminating services. Two additional bay platforms next to 11 were recommended.

At the moment there is plenty of room, but alas if that dreadful Sphere thing gets permission to be built, you can kiss goodbye to any additional services in the future, Hall Farm included.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

You couldn't extend the overground without major works at Stratford to make platforms 1 and 2 through platforms. You can't use 11 and 12 practically for that because of conflicts with freight movements between GEML and North London line.

Removing the buffer stops and wall at Stratford does not require major work. The freight trains do not use the platforms which currently accommodate terminating trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water.

The real problem with this idea is that the level crossing at Highams Park will be closed more often than at present and will cause severe traffic problems. Waltham Forest Council, being fanatically hostile to the motor car, won't care about that but residents of E4 will! It's a pity this scheme was not thrashed out before the latest rebuilding of Walthamstow which now has new buildings where a turnback bay platform might have been feasible.

If the plan does come about, extending London Overground services to Chingford makes sense. In my opinion, the current service to Meridian Water would be better as an extension of LO trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction.

 

[Ianno87]

Ah, this old chestnut back again...

Having said that, I understand one of the challenges with the proposal was traditionally the interaction between a Hall Farm Curve service, and the ECS moves that run between Liverpool Street and Orient Way between the peaks (from GEML services) - effectively too many crossing moves in and out of Orient Way.

If, post Covid the GEML settles to a less 'peaky' timetable- the need for such ECS moves may reduce and improve the feasibility of, say, a 2tph Chingford-Stratford service.

Getting into Liverpool Street will still be tricky (but fairly needless given the faster route via Clapton)

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Removing the buffer stops and wall at Stratford does not require major work. The freight trains do not use the platforms which currently accommodate terminating trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water.

The real problem with this idea is that the level crossing at Highams Park will be closed more often than at present and will cause severe traffic problems. Waltham Forest Council, being fanatically hostile to the motor car, won't care about that but residents of E4 will! It's a pity this scheme was not thrashed out before the latest rebuilding of Walthamstow which now has new buildings where a turnback bay platform might have been feasible.

If the plan does come about, extending London Overground services to Chingford makes sense. In my opinion, the current service to Meridian Water would be better as an extension of LO trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction.

I would love to see what you describe as major works then! It was a missed opportunity that the new 1 and 2 platforms weren't built with passive provision for through running. If you take a walk down that end of the platforms, you will see why I would describe any changes as major.

It's been pointed out before by people in the industry that routing overground services through 11 and 12 introduces serious conflicts for the freight movements on the GEML. It's not practical. Read the Anglia RUS if you don't believe me.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I would love to see what you describe as major works then! It was a missed opportunity that the new 1 and 2 platforms weren't built with passive provision for through running. If you take a walk down that end of the platforms, you will see why I would describe any changes as major.

It's been pointed out before by people in the industry that routing overground services through 11 and 12 introduces serious conflicts for the freight movements on the GEML. It's not practical. Read the Anglia RUS if you don't believe me.

Let me repeat: the freight trains to or from the Great Eastern Main Lines do not use the same platforms as the trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water which terminate at Stratford, so there is no conflict. At present it is possible for London Overground trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction to access those platforms and a week or so ago I was on a LO train which did just that. It is therefore possible, paths being available, for a LO train to travel through Stratford and continue towards Lee Bridge without any rebuilding at all.

 

[Ianno87]

Let me repeat: the freight trains to or from the Great Eastern Main Lines do not use the same platforms as the trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water which terminate at Stratford, so there is no conflict. At present it is possible for London Overground trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction to access those platforms and a week or so ago I was on a LO train which did just that. It is therefore possible, paths being available, for a LO train to travel through Stratford and continue towards Lee Bridge without any rebuilding at all.

The part you are missing is that the section of track that connections Platforms 11/12 via Stratford Central Junction to the North London Line (at Channelsea Junction) is where freight trains are regulated for pathing between the NLL and GEML.

Sending NLL passenger trains into Platform 1/2 keeps this section of track free to hold freight services clear of all routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Cant see this happening. Higham’s Park LX and Stratford platform capacity are significant issues.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

If it does (and it would be lovely if the very real issues could be solved) surely the point of the line is to provide access from Walthamstow to Stratford for both Stratford itself and for access to Docklands via the Jubilee Line and the DLR. Liverpool St is not needed as there is already access via Clapton.

 

[leytongabriel]

The Hall Farm Curve on the Lea Valley lines, linking the Chingford branch with the line from Stratford has come up again in local discussions. Here is an informal report back from a Waltham Forest Public Transport Consultation Group meeting held this week.


An interesting update on the Hall Farm Curve – the reinstatement of the junction north of Lea Bridge station to enable trains to run between Stratford and Chingford via Lea Bridge, St James, Walthamstow Central etc.. After a meeting this week of WF, TfL, Greater Anglia and National Rail the possibility of this link is now back on the agenda, with the Council’s earlier option for a station at Ruckholt somewhat side-lined. They spoke about making an amendment to the current draft Local Plan as a result. The Council will pay £10/15k to commission Network rail to do a desk survey/feasibility study to put in a Chingford to Stratford “shuttle “ aimed at two trains per hour. It was discussed that there was no capacity to continue the trains into Liverpool St. Third party funding would also be required to progress this – possibly from S106 and SIL monies. It was discussed that the study should be commissioned Jan 2022 and would take approx. 6 months to complete. The whole project IF approved would cost £40-50M and the design and construction period would take 5/6 years.

Given that most TfL Rail trains will be diverted underground to the Elizabeth line is it really the case that there would be no capacity for through running to Liverpool St say by the end of the decade?

Thank you, that's clear and help

Cant see this happening. Higham’s Park LX and Stratford platform capacity are significant issues.

It looks like they are suggesting 2 an hour each for Liverpool St and so the same overall frequency through Highams Park but that's going to upset people going to Liverpool St ........

Let me repeat: the freight trains to or from the Great Eastern Main Lines do not use the same platforms as the trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water which terminate at Stratford, so there is no conflict. At present it is possible for London Overground trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction to access those platforms and a week or so ago I was on a LO train which did just that. It is therefore possible, paths being available, for a LO train to travel through Stratford and continue towards Lee Bridge without any rebuilding at all.

That's interesting!

 

[Class 170101]

Removing the buffer stops and wall at Stratford does not require major work. The freight trains do not use the platforms which currently accommodate terminating trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water.

The real problem with this idea is that the level crossing at Highams Park will be closed more often than at present and will cause severe traffic problems. Waltham Forest Council, being fanatically hostile to the motor car, won't care about that but residents of E4 will! It's a pity this scheme was not thrashed out before the latest rebuilding of Walthamstow which now has new buildings where a turnback bay platform might have been feasible.

If the plan does come about, extending London Overground services to Chingford makes sense. In my opinion, the current service to Meridian Water would be better as an extension of LO trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction.

Let me repeat: the freight trains to or from the Great Eastern Main Lines do not use the same platforms as the trains from Bishops Stortford and Meridian Water which terminate at Stratford, so there is no conflict. At present it is possible for London Overground trains from Richmond and Clapham Junction to access those platforms and a week or so ago I was on a LO train which did just that. It is therefore possible, paths being available, for a LO train to travel through Stratford and continue towards Lee Bridge without any rebuilding at all.

The Freight standing at L295 Signal, if its formed of trailing load of >30 Wagons, the rear of the trains stands on Platform 10A and are foul of Stratford Central Jn. Trains using Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford join the NLL at Channelsea Jn which is further round so do not encounter this problem but if they used Platforms 11 and 12 they would.

If you wanted to do it I suppose you could withdraw 2tph from Liverpool Street to Chingford and divert 2tph from Hackney Wick via High Meads Jn to reach Chingford via Hall Farm Curve, but these services would not serve Stratford which is a significant destination for passenger traffic as well as Liverpool Street too.

 

[Bald Rick]

It looks like they are suggesting 2 an hour each for Liverpool St and so the same overall frequency through Highams Park but that's going to upset people going to Liverpool St ........

There would not be a case for that. Leaving aside th3 Stratford platform issue, this would involve capital investment of £50m + to end up with lower revenue...

 

[Cricketer8for9]

When will amateur planners realise that 30 minute headways are not half as good as 15 minute ones. The former requires looking at a timetable, the latter is almost turn up and go.

 

[Ianno87]

When will amateur planners realise that 30 minute headways are not half as good as 15 minute ones. The former requires looking at a timetable, the latter is almost turn up and go.

Amateur planners who have realised that there is not capacity for 4tph without major infrastructure investment, but 2tph could be feasible with more modest work (noting @Bald Rick 's point about Highams Park).

So perhaps not so amateur after all?

 

[rower40]

Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford are signalled from the North London Line workstation at Upminster; platforms 11 and 12 are signalled from the Stratford workstation at Liverpool Street, then fringing with the Temple Mills workstation. Extending platforms 1 and 2 to be "through" platforms, towards Temple Mills East Junction, would be a massive project, for minimal benefit. Most of the day, they'd be used as back-to-back bays, with trains terminating from both directions. So it would be easier to build and signal them as that - i.e. provide new north-facing bay platforms.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford are signalled from the North London Line workstation at Upminster; platforms 11 and 12 are signalled from the Stratford workstation at Liverpool Street, then fringing with the Temple Mills workstation. Extending platforms 1 and 2 to be "through" platforms, towards Temple Mills East Junction, would be a massive project, for minimal benefit. Most of the day, they'd be used as back-to-back bays, with trains terminating from both directions. So it would be easier to build and signal them as that - i.e. provide new north-facing bay platforms.

Thanks for the detailed background, hence why the RUS recommended that. Shame the sphere might prevent the bays!

 

[Ianno87]

Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford are signalled from the North London Line workstation at Upminster; platforms 11 and 12 are signalled from the Stratford workstation at Liverpool Street, then fringing with the Temple Mills workstation. Extending platforms 1 and 2 to be "through" platforms, towards Temple Mills East Junction, would be a massive project, for minimal benefit. Most of the day, they'd be used as back-to-back bays, with trains terminating from both directions. So it would be easier to build and signal them as that - i.e. provide new north-facing bay platforms.

And Platforms 1 and 2 have a step-free walking route behind their buffer stops to reach Platform 12 anyway.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Goodbye to any new north facing bay platforms to enable this. The giant illuminated testicle that will fill that space has been granted planning permission.

https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1506411930608619524?t=Q_LCsaPMaGvp1AkgYeu8Nw&s=19

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Goodbye to any new north facing bay platforms to enable this. The giant illuminated testicle that will fill that space has been granted planning permission.

https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1506411930608619524?t=Q_LCsaPMaGvp1AkgYeu8Nw&s=19

What the Christ is that abomination?! Good lord another white elephant

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Much as I would love to see a Walthamstow-Stratford rail service happen in my life time, as someone who used to have to bus down that corridor on a commute for several years, the business case will never stack up and this is just busy-work so someone can say they’re doing something.

What can provide nearly as good an outcome, for a fraction of the cost, is to bring back the bus service that operated during the 2015 (?) Victoria line closure, which was limited stop between Walthamstow Central and Stratford, and route via South Grove, South Access Road, Argyll Way, Orient Way and Temple Mills Lane.
Call it ‘X58’, and we can have it tomorrow!

 

[Snow1964]

I do wonder about cost estimates, £40-50m for no earthworks, a sub layer of ballast already in situ, masts already in situ at Walthamstow end (the curve was electrified for part of its length before closure).

So there is few hundred meters of track, some new ballast, about dozen new electrification poles, couple of junction indicators to add to existing signals with bit of standard junction interlocking. How on earth does that get to £50m.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do wonder about cost estimates, £40-50m for no earthworks, a sub layer of ballast already in situ, masts already in situ at Walthamstow end (the curve was electrified for part of its length before closure).

So there is few hundred meters of track, some new ballast, about dozen new electrification poles, couple of junction indicators to add to existing signals with bit of standard junction interlocking. How on earth does that get to £50m.

clue: where do the trains go at Stratford?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Much as I would love to see a Walthamstow-Stratford rail service happen in my life time, as someone who used to have to bus down that corridor on a commute for several years, the business case will never stack up and this is just busy-work so someone can say they’re doing something.

What can provide nearly as good an outcome, for a fraction of the cost, is to bring back the bus service that operated during the 2015 (?) Victoria line closure, which was limited stop between Walthamstow Central and Stratford, and route via South Grove, South Access Road, Argyll Way, Orient Way and Temple Mills Lane.
Call it ‘X58’, and we can have it tomorrow!

Unfortunately, the dementedly anti-motorist Waltham Forest Council have closed South Access Road. Anything to annoy and frustrate motorists! This means, among other things, that people who live in Walthamstow and wish to take their refuse to the re-cycling depot, now have go on a long detour via Lea Bridge Road.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Unfortunately, the dementedly anti-motorist Waltham Forest Council have closed South Access Road. Anything to annoy and frustrate motorists! This means, among other things, that people who live in Walthamstow and wish to take their refuse to the re-cycling depot, now have go on a long detour via Lea Bridge Road.

Not to buses - there's now a bus gate between South Access Road and Argall Avenue, I believe, which the W19 passes through. For buses, this is a better situation than before, as they used to have to pass through the barrier at the Council Depot to traverse the roadblock, which was not possible outside of normal working hours.

So X58 would still be possible - and give a link between St James St and Lea Bridge stations, since the W19 never got extended beyond Argall Avenue.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Not to buses - there's now a bus gate between South Access Road and Argall Avenue, I believe, which the W19 passes through. For buses, this is a better situation than before, as they used to have to pass through the barrier at the Council Depot to traverse the roadblock, which was not possible outside of normal working hours.

So X58 would still be possible - and give a link between St James St and Lea Bridge stations, since the W19 never got extended beyond Argall Avenue.

Thank you. I didn't know that. I don't go down there now that it's blocked to non-bus users like me.

 

[Malaxa]

Call it ‘X58’, and we can have it tomorrow!

And as the bus sits in the usual traffic jam along Orient way southbound, going nowhere, you could pass the hours watching the comings and goings in the Eurostar depot.