buses7675
Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2010
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- 43
https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/cus...0_WLyoio9Hs5Enf2iToHUqsn8-UQJAJFVCbfZRId-lSQs
Stagecoach appear to have all the Merseyside based ex Halton Transport schools contracts
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Halton Transport
- Thread starter F262YTJ
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https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/cus...0_WLyoio9Hs5Enf2iToHUqsn8-UQJAJFVCbfZRId-lSQs
Stagecoach appear to have all the Merseyside based ex Halton Transport schools contracts
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childwallblues
Established Member
And they use double deckers from Speke although the odd Commander/Cadet does get on.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Warrington also taking on some of the work
https://www.warringtonsownbuses.co.uk/news/halton-transport-services-20
Why on earth would they want to buy it? If they wanted it I suspect Halton Council would have given it to them!
robertclark125
Established Member
It's easy to be wise after the event, but when you look at the initiatives other firms are trying, one that sprung to mind was the Little and Often trial by Stagecoach in Ashford. I just wonder if perhaps Halton, a few years ago, had they tried that sort of thing, if things may have been different. Sadly we'll never know.
Maybe or maybe not. Steve Rotheram’s words not mine, it was about trying to save jobs, some good companies in various sectors go under due to different reasons, in the end its about people losing their jobs and If i was in that situation would try and help them as best i could.
Political point scoring. “Labour want to save routes and jobs but can’t due to Tory legislation” is what it sums up to.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
"Little and Often" is flawed - if you are genuinely only going to fill a minibus, the route is not viable without subsidy.
overthewater
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2012
- Messages
- 8,161
Yet it used to work. Edinburgh had a tone of City Sprinter all 21 or 25 seats they made a bucket loads for Eastern Scottish.
As far as the My ticket goes I am astonished at the level of fraud with this ticket. It seems apparent that the age limit is 41 for it.
Why the hell identity cards aren't issued to enable permission to purchase one astounds me. So simple to initiate and very cost effective to implement.
The amount of money lost through deception is shocking but so easily solved.
Agreed, and it's notable that Merseyrail did exactly that with their equivalent tickets very soon after the age limit for child fares on Merseyside was raised. 16-18 year olds need to present photo ID showing birth date - either a passport or driving licence, or a special Merseyrail-issued photocard, to get the discount.
Halton are the second operator, after Wirral-based Avon Buses in 2018, to partially blame MyTicket for their demise.
Dai Corner
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 6,342
Are operators expected to absorb the cost without reimbursement then?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Because you could easily employ minibus drivers on two thirds of a conventional rate. So your cost to revenue difference meant you made money.
Most operators struggle to recruit at existing rates. So yes, it used to work and that’s why it doesn’t now.
Statto
Established Member
It's daft, as other Merseytravel period passes you need a photo ID in order to use it[you need ID with proof of age in order to purchase any Merseytravel passes, when you first buy one], regardless whether adult or under 18, so easy to implement too.
These were high frequency services, though (when the Eastern Scottish C5 started, it ran every five minutes) so the use of minibuses was justified, if you missed one bus there would be another along shortly. The high frequency was their key selling point. These days, minibuses are used in response to falling passenger levels.
I see what looks like 20-25 year olds getting on using young persons Monthly /weekly Solo tickets on the Walrus Cards.
Another bad idea as just about anyone can buy anything regardless of age without proof of age!
People buy one card and share it with other family members or friends.
I see this quite,a lot too.
Getting caught using a fraudulently purchased card is almost zero due to lack of revenue protection.
And drivers wont bother questioning them,why should they?
In the light of the demise of Halton Transport. Merseytravel should do something about the fraud by re-instating the adult fares back to 16 years of age.
Even then,we will still have passengers claiming they were only 15 to try and save a pound!
Merseytravel could easily introduce an ID card system where the child can apply with a photo and proof of age. The photo could be added to the card with the expiry date.
And they could charge a small fee to everyone that applies to cover their costs.
And young persons can get half price travel when they show their cards to the driver or at railway stations.
No card? No half fare!
It sounds harsh,but it would cut out the fraud!
If everyone knew they had to have the card,they would make sure they purchased one.
As young persons age for half fares vary from area to area,it should be a nationwide initiative so it would be the same for anyone visiting to claim the half fare benefit.
I regularly get so called children paying half fares with their Barclaycards!
The whole system is a shambles and
All operators revenues are down.
Halton has sadly been the biggest victim of this.
It's time for all the operations managers from all the bus companies to approach Merseytravel in the light of Haltons demise to protect future operations from failing the same way.
Another bad idea as just about anyone can buy anything regardless of age without proof of age!
People buy one card and share it with other family members or friends.
I see this quite,a lot too.
Getting caught using a fraudulently purchased card is almost zero due to lack of revenue protection.
And drivers wont bother questioning them,why should they?
In the light of the demise of Halton Transport. Merseytravel should do something about the fraud by re-instating the adult fares back to 16 years of age.
Even then,we will still have passengers claiming they were only 15 to try and save a pound!
Merseytravel could easily introduce an ID card system where the child can apply with a photo and proof of age. The photo could be added to the card with the expiry date.
And they could charge a small fee to everyone that applies to cover their costs.
And young persons can get half price travel when they show their cards to the driver or at railway stations.
No card? No half fare!
It sounds harsh,but it would cut out the fraud!
If everyone knew they had to have the card,they would make sure they purchased one.
As young persons age for half fares vary from area to area,it should be a nationwide initiative so it would be the same for anyone visiting to claim the half fare benefit.
I regularly get so called children paying half fares with their Barclaycards!
The whole system is a shambles and
All operators revenues are down.
Halton has sadly been the biggest victim of this.
It's time for all the operations managers from all the bus companies to approach Merseytravel in the light of Haltons demise to protect future operations from failing the same way.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes, though as I explained above, you had 12% unemployment in 1986 and could pay the drivers two thirds that of a big bus drivers. Hence the uplift in cost was less and so would be covered by the increase in revenue.
Nowadays you’d be paying full whack so increased revenue wouldn’t cover those extra driver costs which is why the Ashford trial didn’t work. Might also add that these days, it’s hard to recruit for current requirements let alone high intensity services.
MyTicket may have made an extreme financial position worse but there are other factors which lead to the downfall of Avon and Halton. They were both basketcases for a number of years previously which in the case of Halton, was probably kept going more for civic pride.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There are undoubtedly other reasons as per the rest of the industry like insufficient ENCTS remuneration, increasing insurance, pensions and driver wage costs, etc.
However, MyTicket is clearly beset by people taking the proverbial. It needs sorting
Cesarcollie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Jun 2016
- Messages
- 538
Indeed. Plus of course Ford Transits and the like were a fraction of the cost of a full size bus to buy and maintain/fuel. The modern equivalent Mercedes Sprinter, with PSVAR compliance etc, is probably two thirds of the price of a full size single-deck, but with perhaps half the lifespan. So add together driver costs (no difference) and capital/ running costs, and nowadays the economics don’t work nearly as well.....
Also one of the main problems with Halton Transport was they wanted there cake & eat it were I live in Runcorn on my route we had 4 buses per hour between the Halton 61A & the Arriva 82A now you would think between them every 15 mins NO.
Halton run the 61A just 5 mins in front of the 82A so when Arriva replaced the 82A with the X1 it was timed so to give 15 gap with the 61A (happy days) not not for long Halton then retimed the 61 this time just 3 min in front of it so it was back to stalemate,
At the same time with the Arriva 82A later the 500 serving Halebank Halton only run a service from Widnes to Halebank again giving a good service between them both,
All was fine until Halton then decided to reroute there 62A which served the other end of Widnes and was the only bus these people had to Halebank instead and yes what did Halton due 5 min s in front of Arriva
The other negative with them again taking on over 20 school routes in Merseyside with the buses only out for around 4 hours a day Mon to Fri that still have to be taxed and maintained.
And just look at what the director was getting £76,500 per year, and the wage bill for the directors was over £206,000 per year? No wonder they went bust.
Will I miss Halton yes but it was on the cards for a few years
Halton run the 61A just 5 mins in front of the 82A so when Arriva replaced the 82A with the X1 it was timed so to give 15 gap with the 61A (happy days) not not for long Halton then retimed the 61 this time just 3 min in front of it so it was back to stalemate,
At the same time with the Arriva 82A later the 500 serving Halebank Halton only run a service from Widnes to Halebank again giving a good service between them both,
All was fine until Halton then decided to reroute there 62A which served the other end of Widnes and was the only bus these people had to Halebank instead and yes what did Halton due 5 min s in front of Arriva
The other negative with them again taking on over 20 school routes in Merseyside with the buses only out for around 4 hours a day Mon to Fri that still have to be taxed and maintained.
And just look at what the director was getting £76,500 per year, and the wage bill for the directors was over £206,000 per year? No wonder they went bust.
Will I miss Halton yes but it was on the cards for a few years
I guess they wont be getting paid anymore!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you want good senior management, you have to pay for them. It's unpalatable for those on the front line on far lower wages and arguably unfair, but you simply won't get good senior management on a driver's wage.
(note, this is a general point, I'm not commenting as to whether Halton's senior management were good or not)
(note, this is a general point, I'm not commenting as to whether Halton's senior management were good or not)
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Absolutely right. Couple of things to also consider....
- £76k is the total cost incl on-cost NOT what the individual was paid
- Halton didn’t have the economies of scale where MD/FD/ED can be spread over several depots (or one large one)
All talk could have bought it and used it as an example. Laws are just guidelines. Politicians need to look at the reality.
Doesn't one of the relevant acts of Parliament ban new council owned bus companies? Steve Rotheram has no powers to change any laws, and the current government is not likely to help in any way having just run, and won, an election campaign against nationalisation.
they will just have been saving a bus company in the area. They wont be starting from scratch. Thats an opportunity missed
robertclark125
Established Member
Any news on any disposals from the fleet, and where to?
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