Harrogate line cancellations

[Northern158170]

Seems to be our turn now. I take the 2C17 York-Harrogate/Leeds and this week it has been cancelled twice. I can’t take an alternative train as I would get in either late or way too early. Not to mention that this is a very busy service, a sprinter probably couldn’t handle it. I’m pretty sure every day this week at least 1 peak time train has been cancelled, today there was 3! What is going on with Northern’s reliability?

 

[skyhigh]

2C17 was cancelled this morning due to the failure of 2C00 meaning no unit available.

170 availability hasn't been great recently.

 

[Northern158170]

Despite what Northern claimed when they decided to move a 170 to a peak time unit

They seem to have managed to procure a class 150 at Leeds, but not a guard as the service is cancelled until Harrogate, conveniently going right past me

 

[david737]

There has been quite a lot of occasions recently when 2 car 150's or 158's have substituted for the 170's on this line, a few weeks back there was several days when at least 3 diagrams were substituted at various time during the day. Does anyone know what the problems are with the 170's as so many seem to keep failing at the moment.

 

[trawler]

Three 170s on shed at Hull BG this afternoon and evening.

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

158907 covered for a 170 for a straight 5 days last week if my memory serves me correctly. Reliability has been poor off the 170s.

 

[_toommm_]

Heard a 150 an hour ago from my house. Turned out it was a 150/0. They're pretty rare from memory.

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

Ironically enough they’re becoming less rare now. Not complaining though, could do with some more variety!

 

[Halish Railway]

Wasn’t there a plan a while ago to introduce 195s into the Harrogate line?

The only issue is that there aren’t many services where you can swap a 195 for a 170 given the complexities of training multiple depots to drive the 170s. 170s may be better suited to the Leeds to York via Garforth stoppers, but that would be an exchange of just two units.

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

There wasn’t a plan as such, moreover they tested a 195 for platform gap widths. Have not heard if it was successful or not but would imagine they’re doing some research on it. I do think the 170s are honestly better suited to York to Blackpool North runs and 195s are better for Harrogate loop runs. What I find funny is for all the work they do on the Harrogate loop, all bar 1 170s are maintained at Hull Botanic Gardens, so Depots would be interesting to sort if they did go ahead with swapping them.

 

[skyhigh]

all bar 1 170s are maintained at Hull Botanic Gardens

All 170s are maintained at Hull, not sure why you think there is 1 that isn't?

There wasn’t a plan as such, moreover they tested a 195 for platform gap widths.

There was (and is) a plan.

 

[Northern158170]

158907 covered for a 170 for a straight 5 days last week if my memory serves me correctly. Reliability has been poor off the 170s.

Last Friday there were 2 150s and a 158 (probably 907) running the line, leaving only 3 170s in the off-peak

2 days last week I saw 170s stabled at Harrogate with services cancelled due to a lack of train crew

At York yesterday for some reason 150004 and a 170 seemed to swap diagrams. This caused severe delays to a few services with at least 1 cancelled later on

Looks like there’s 158795 on the line today

 

[david737]

Another poor show today on this line at least a dozen canned due to train crew shortages, 2 in a row in some cases leaving a big gap in the service also the 2339 Leeds (the last train) to Harrogate is binned as well.

 

[skyhigh]

also the 2339 Leeds (the last train) to Harrogate is binned as well.

At least there is a replacement bus.

 

[ElijahsTrains]

Last Friday there were 2 150s and a 158 (probably 907) running the line, leaving only 3 170s in the off-peak

2 days last week I saw 170s stabled at Harrogate with services cancelled due to a lack of train crew

At York yesterday for some reason 150004 and a 170 seemed to swap diagrams. This caused severe delays to a few services with at least 1 cancelled later on

Looks like there’s 158795 on the line today

Oh dear! In my experience there are usually lots of delays, on average 10 mins or under but sometimes it can be bad like that! And it's awful when they put 2 car 158s and 150s on peak services!

 

[Northern158170]

Just got off 2C17 York-Leeds, operated by 150222. From Knaresborough onwards it was standing room only as I counted maybe 90 people getting on. Between Harrogate and Hornbeam Park it can only be described as crush loaded until the usual mass exodus at Hornbeam Park for schoolkids which took a while on account of the vestibules being absolutely packed - stopped for 2 minutes from a timetable of 1. 150s are completely inadequate for peak time services on this line and I really wish Northern would stop
timetabling substituting them onto services

 

[800001]

Just got off 2C17 York-Leeds, operated by 150222. From Knaresborough onwards it was standing room only as I counted maybe 90 people getting on. Between Harrogate and Hornbeam Park it can only be described as crush loaded until the usual mass exodus at Hornbeam Park for schoolkids which took a while on account of the vestibules being absolutely packed - stopped for 2 minutes from a timetable of 1. 150s are completely inadequate for peak time services on this line and I really wish Northern would stop
timetabling substituting them onto services

If that’s the only available unit to substitute what would you suggest? Cancel?

 

[skyhigh]

Just got off 2C17 York-Leeds, operated by 150222. From Knaresborough onwards it was standing room only as I counted maybe 90 people getting on. Between Harrogate and Hornbeam Park it can only be described as crush loaded until the usual mass exodus at Hornbeam Park for schoolkids which took a while on account of the vestibules being absolutely packed - stopped for 2 minutes from a timetable of 1. 150s are completely inadequate for peak time services on this line and I really wish Northern would stop
timetabling substituting them onto services

There was literally nothing else available this morning without cancelling or short forming another service. The booked 150 pair is also shortformed to a single 150.

There isn't a single spare serviceable unit this morning that could have worked that service. So it was that or cancellation.

 

[Northern158170]

Fair points I guess. I do wonder why the only spare unit would be a class 150 presumably taken from the peak time 2x 150 diagram as that’s short formed today. Surely there can’t be that many units out of service

Also it looks like there will be some OTM work at Cattal tonight. Does anyone know what’s happening regarding that?

 

[Scotrail84]

What have Northern done to these 170s they got from ScotRail because they were all good ones. All newer versions and cross feeders etc. If they don't want them I'm sure ScotRail will take them back to boost their fleet again.

 

[Northern158170]

I see 2 services in a row from York to Leeds have been cancelled due to a ‘Rail Defect’ (14:42, 15:12). 1 train has run ECS to Leeds via Garforth

 

[Adam0984]

Track defect near Hammerton so a couple of trains were cancelled to give Network Rail time to do some repairs to keep it open until permanent repairs can be done

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

Reckon thatll need an engineers train or theyll sort it via other means?

(Edit) Answering my own question. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U26105/2024-10-02/detailed

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

What have Northern done to these 170s they got from ScotRail because they were all good ones. All newer versions and cross feeders etc. If they don't want them I'm sure ScotRail will take them back to boost their fleet again.

I remember someone making the observation that a 170 (being designed for 100mph) spending the day on the Harrogate line will never exceed 65mph and therefore never get out of hydraulic transmission into direct drive. Prolonged use like this doesn’t do the transmission any good. Given the maintenance facility is at Hull Botanic they must be cycled through other duties but then this doesn’t support good timetable performance at Leeds if one route can import delay to another, etc.

For comparison a 158 will ‘change gear’ at between 53-60mph depending on the power notch, so they don’t have the same problem.

For anyone in the know - is there a limit to how much time a 170 can be diagrammed to remain on sub-70mph duties?

 

[ElijahsTrains]

Just got off 2C17 York-Leeds, operated by 150222. From Knaresborough onwards it was standing room only as I counted maybe 90 people getting on. Between Harrogate and Hornbeam Park it can only be described as crush loaded until the usual mass exodus at Hornbeam Park for schoolkids which took a while on account of the vestibules being absolutely packed - stopped for 2 minutes from a timetable of 1. 150s are completely inadequate for peak time services on this line and I really wish Northern would stop
timetabling substituting them onto services

I agree! 158s are great but not for peak services unless it's a 3 car but yeah northern should just scrap 150s on the Harrogate line!

 

[800001]

Reckon thatll need an engineers train or theyll sort it via other means?

(Edit) Answering my own question. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U26105/2024-10-02/detailed

That’s a track machine, not necessarily connected to the track defect.

 

[ElijahsTrains]

That’s a track machine, not necessarily connected to the track defect.

Oh ok!

 

[skyhigh]

For anyone in the know - is there a limit to how much time a 170 can be diagrammed to remain on sub-70mph duties?

No, and there are very little issues with the transmissions. It is largely a problem that has been 'invented' from the characteristics of the unit.

but yeah northern should just scrap 150s on the Harrogate line!

Which would just have resulted in a cancellation rather than a short form. I can't see how that's an improvement.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think that it would be fair to say that a single 40m unit (like a class 150) isn’t appropriate for most of the peak hour on the Harrogate line. It’s better than no train and the pairs are welcome peak hour busters. Having pairs does mean that there is some flexibility to split so that trains operate rather than get cancelled, although it’s little consolation for any passengers left behind because of overcrowding. I do feel for @Northern158170 whose train starts off from Neville Hill as a pair, which form two diagrams following each other. The other train that morning, which arrives into York mid morning peak hour and I assume is relatively quiet (happy to be told otherwise) was formed of a 3 car 170.

 

[ChrisC]

I remember someone making the observation that a 170 (being designed for 100mph) spending the day on the Harrogate line will never exceed 65mph and therefore never get out of hydraulic transmission into direct drive. Prolonged use like this doesn’t do the transmission any good. Given the maintenance facility is at Hull Botanic they must be cycled through other duties but then this doesn’t support good timetable performance at Leeds if one route can import delay to another, etc.

For comparison a 158 will ‘change gear’ at between 53-60mph depending on the power notch, so they don’t have the same problem.

For anyone in the know - is there a limit to how much time a 170 can be diagrammed to remain on sub-70mph duties?

I think this idea must be greatly exaggerated and in reality not an issue.
If it was the case EMR would by now be in big trouble as all of their local services are now 170 operated. Very few of their routes have any sustained running over 60mph some routes with even more regular stops and slower running than on the Harrogate line.