Harrogate line cancellations

[Andy Pacer]

I think this idea must be greatly exaggerated and in reality not an issue.
If it was the case EMR would by now be in big trouble as all of their local services are now 170 operated. Very few of their routes have any sustained running over 60mph some routes with even more regular stops and slower running than on the Harrogate line.

And presumably the 170s also mix onto the Sheffield - Scarborough services which I assume has some quicker running (although probably not a lot).

 

[ElijahsTrains]

I think that it would be fair to say that a single 40m unit (like a class 150) isn’t appropriate for most of the peak hour on the Harrogate line. It’s better than no train and the pairs are welcome peak hour busters. Having pairs does mean that there is some flexibility to split so that trains operate rather than get cancelled, although it’s little consolation for any passengers left behind because of overcrowding. I do feel for @Northern158170 whose train starts off from Neville Hill as a pair, which form two diagrams following each other. The other train that morning, which arrives into York mid morning peak hour and I assume is relatively quiet (happy to be told otherwise) was formed of a 3 car 170.

I agree! 2 150s coupled are better than just one for mosg services which sometimes happens and if no 150s were available it would lead to cancellations, bur generally they are not ideal for passanger services

No, and there are very little issues with the transmissions. It is largely a problem that has been 'invented' from the characteristics of the unit.

Which would just have resulted in a cancellation rather than a short form. I can't see how that's an improvement.

I mean 150s are really the only trains that are capable of 4 cars on the Harrogate line so I can see why they do it for capacity! Because 170s can only just fit at some stations, as well as 3 car 158s.

 

[jamiearmley]

What have Northern done to these 170s they got from ScotRail because they were all good ones. All newer versions and cross feeders etc. If they don't want them I'm sure ScotRail will take them back to boost their fleet again.

When they came they found that many required major work and had been poorly maintained.

 

[Scotrail84]

When they came they found that many required major work and had been poorly maintained.

I'm surprised at that because those newer 170s at ScotRail were always pretty reliable, 401-424 are a different story though.

 

[jamiearmley]

I agree! 158s are great but not for peak services unless it's a 3 car but yeah northern should just scrap 150s on the Harrogate line!

150s are far better at keeping peak services to time. The end doors on the 158 create a far slower passenger exit/entry, which the 150 achieves in far less time.

Traditionally, trains for busy commuter services are not designed with end doors for this very reason.

Id far rather work a 150 in the peak than a 158, if I am to have any hope of arriving at the lines many pinch points on time.

I'm surprised at that because those newer 170s at ScotRail were always pretty reliable, 401-424 are a different story though.

A cynic might have thought that old, life expired parts had been retrofitted prior to transfer.

I, of course, could not possibly comment....

 

[ElijahsTrains]

150s are far better at keeping peak services to time. The end doors on the 158 create a far slower passenger exit/entry, which the 150 achieves in far less time.

Traditionally, trains for busy commuter services are not designed with end doors for this very reason.

Id far rather work a 150 in the peak than a 158, if I am to have any hope of arriving at the lines many pinch points on time.


A cynic might have thought that old, life expired parts had been retrofitted prior to transfer.

I, of course, could not possibly comment....

Okay! But quite a lot they will use 2 car 150s, but sometimes they use 4 cars which should be used all the time on any peak services a 150 is operating. For better capacity because I'm pretty sure no other trains that run on the Harrogate line can support 4 cars.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Is there a reason why class 195s are not used on the Harrogate line? Clearances?

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

That’s a track machine, not necessarily connected to the track defect.

Ah fair enough. Just never get anything unless it’s engineering out that way really. Would hope they can get some engineers trains in, from an enthusiast pov…

Is there a reason why class 195s are not used on the Harrogate line? Clearances?

I’m not educated in this yet, but they were testing platform clearances a few months back. Someone else can tell you more though. I know someone (not in the industry) that tried to tell me that it’s due to weight restrictions, which I think is a bunch of wibble, quite honestly.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A cynic might have thought that old, life expired parts had been retrofitted prior to transfer.

I, of course, could not possibly comment....

Don't units usually have to be returned to the ROSCO in a condition similar to how they left? Obviously as these units were new to Scotrail they wouldn't have been quite as shiny when returned, but I'd have thought that deliberately fitting life-expired parts prior to the return would incur some sort of financial penalty.

 

[ElijahsTrains]

Ah fair enough. Just never get anything unless it’s engineering out that way really. Would hope they can get some engineers trains in, from an enthusiast pov…


I’m not educated in this yet, but they were testing platform clearances a few months back. Someone else can tell you more though. I know someone (not in the industry) that tried to tell me that it’s due to weight restrictions, which I think is a bunch of wibble, quite honestly.

How could there be weight restrictions??

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

How could there be weight restrictions??

God knows mate, he thinks it’ll wear down over time but I have to remind him heavy freight and long passenger trains passed over that frequently in the days of locos. There was an Azuma over there 5 years ago iirc.

 

[Northern158170]

There is a class 195/331 stop marker at Starbeck but I don’t recall any anywhere else

 

[ElijahsTrains]

There is a class 195/331 stop marker at Starbeck but I don’t recall any anywhere else

Yeah I've seen that!

God knows mate, he thinks it’ll wear down over time but I have to remind him heavy freight and long passenger trains passed over that frequently in the days of locos. There was an Azuma over there 5 years ago iirc.

Yeah lots of stuff passes over the harrogate line with DMUs, locos and azumas and as you said lots of stuff in the past so weight restrictions cannot be a reason for 195s not running on harrogate line. But there probably are some issues on why they can't operate at the moment. But I really think 195s would be suited more to the Harrogate line then York to Blackpool north. But York to leeds via Garforth services only, are fine with 195s.

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

i do agree, feels like 195s are more suited to stoppy starty work.

 

[ElijahsTrains]

i do agree, feels like 195s are more suited to stoppy starty work.

Yeah frequently stopping commuter services, not long distance services like york to Blackpool north with hard seats!

 

[Bevan Price]

Yeah I've seen that!


Yeah lots of stuff passes over the harrogate line with DMUs, locos and azumas and as you said lots of stuff in the past so weight restrictions cannot be a reason for 195s not running on harrogate line. But there probably are some issues on why they can't operate at the moment. But I really think 195s would be suited more to the Harrogate line then York to Blackpool north. But York to leeds via Garforth services only, are fine with 195s.

It might be that there are not enough 195s to put them on the Harrogate line.....

 

[ElijahsTrains]

It might be that there are not enough 195s to put them on the Harrogate line.....

Maybe!

 

[Adam0984]

There is a class 195/331 stop marker at Starbeck but I don’t recall any anywhere else

That's probably to do with the Harrington Hump on the Harrogate bound platform so the train stops in the right place for the wheechair area.

It might be that there are not enough 195s to put them on the Harrogate line.....

There was some issues with platform clearances on the tests a few months ago, but was only done to clear the route for them to operate in an unplanned situation and then can only be operated using Leeds or York crew

 

[Northern158170]

Disruption somewhere around Poppleton this morning - 07:12 and 07:47 significantly delayed, having a knock-on effect to other services.

A “special announcement” was made but was too quiet to be of any use to anyone (I was stood next to the speakers and could make out every other word)

The departure board advertises a ‘fault with the signalling system’. Nothing on National Rail

 

[tgregson]

I presume this will be the next recuring fault on the line there always seems to be one, at least the Harrogate point failure that happened regularly with the 07:24 to Leeds seems to be sorted.

The single track line causes so many problems between Knaresborough and York with the tightness of the timetable if a train more than 3 minutes late it delays the train coming the other direction and the delay can propagate through the day. Having a 7-8 minute turn around in Leeds makes things worse as the delay can't be made up, (I've never seen a train turned around in less than 5 minutes in Leeds so there’s really no make up time) when that train gets back to the single line section it delays the next train heading to Leeds and the cycle repeats. Makes me wonder why they don't split the turn around time more evenly to give a 20-30 minute turn around at each end rather than 40 minutes in York and 7-8 minutes in Leeds would help with a lot of the delays other than when there are hour+ long delays.

Until the line gets a bit of TLC with the 1980s singling reversed between Knaresborough and York and the line electrified I can't see those of us who use it regularly getting a reliable service with trains with enough capacity.

 

[skyhigh]

Makes me wonder why they don't split the turn around time more evenly to give a 20-30 minute turn around at each end rather than 40 minutes in York and 7-8 minutes in Leeds would help with a lot of the delays other than when there are hour+ long delays.

From memory, it would cause conflicts on the single line sections. The timetable isn't the way it is just because nobody can be bothered to change it - it's probably the best you'll get with the current infrastructure.

 

[Meole]

Does the single line section deserve retention ? York to Leeds via the mainline is sufficient surely, the few wayside stations on the single line have relatively light footfall.

 

[Adam0984]

On the section from Armley Jcn to Skelton Jcn you could change the layover time at either end by moving everything 10-15 mins later and the trains would still pass at Starbeck, between Cattal and Hammerton and outside York, you'd have to work it in with the mainline at either end and would slow down the Harrogate bound LNER as it would catch it up at probably Pannal.
Obviously the single line section was seen as viable otherwise the service wouldn't have being doubled to half Hourly a few years back previously was Hourly with a Knaresborough turn back from Leeds

 

[anothertyke]

Does the single line section deserve retention ? York to Leeds via the mainline is sufficient surely, the few wayside stations on the single line have relatively light footfall.

I think if you want to offer a fully reliable half hourly service then doubling the two single sections is the only sure option. I live on that line and a very common mode of operation is to drop five mins between York and Knaresborough, never recover, depart Leeds five late, delay the inbound at Cattal and so on. Any new stops such as the proposed airport station can only make that problem worse. From a reliability point of view the service was better when we had one York and one Knaresborough per hour.

As a user of the line i think the 170s are the best trains I can remember and vastly superior to the 155s we used to have from a comfort point of view.

 

[Halish Railway]

One of the problems created by not implementing the planned 4tph service between Harrogate and Leeds is that it removed the possibility of interworking the York and Harrogate terminators at Leeds to create longer turnaround times, i.e. 20 minutes instead of 7-8 minutes.

 

[David Bullock]

Does the single line section deserve retention ? York to Leeds via the mainline is sufficient surely, the few wayside stations on the single line have relatively light footfall.

Yes - Harrogate and Knaresborough to York is still quite well used, even if Hammerton/Cattal don’t see that much footfall. Removing it and going via Garforth it would almost double the journey times from those places and place even more strain on one of the busiest stretches of railway in Yorkshire.

I seem to remember also that there was a plan for some big new housing developments which were going to be served by cattal/hammerton stations, not sure how progressed they are.

I agree with others that double tracking and electrification, as well as some way of de-conflicting the York north station throat are the long term solutions the the lines unreliability.

 

[anothertyke]

4000 houses.

yes, not uncommon to be waiting at Skelton Jct to get into York. You wouldn't want to skimp too much on the turnround time at York!

 

[SpeedyWombat88]

Does the single line section deserve retention ? York to Leeds via the mainline is sufficient surely, the few wayside stations on the single line have relatively light footfall.

The route to York has been so useful to me so many times. It would be a massive loss if we got rid of it. I feel it’d be more beneficial to just re-double track it, which would also leave potential for other routes such as up to ripon. But that’s just me getting excited.

 

[tram21]

I think this idea must be greatly exaggerated and in reality not an issue.
If it was the case EMR would by now be in big trouble as all of their local services are now 170 operated. Very few of their routes have any sustained running over 60mph some routes with even more regular stops and slower running than on the Harrogate line.

Whilst many parts of the EMR regional network has some faster running, there's also a lot of stopping, and the reliability of the 170s has been very very good so far with EMR!

 

[Northern158170]

The trains seem to be good at just picking up delay as they go, especially in the peak.

For example today 2C98 (14:12 York to Leeds) picked up 2 minutes of delay between York and Poppleton (seems to be common), 3 by Knaresborough, 4 at Starbeck, 5 at Harrogate, 6 at Hornbeam Park and Pannal, 7 at Weeton and Horsforth, 9 at Headingley, 10 at Burkey park and 11 minutes at Leeds

There just seems to be a recurring inability to stick to time even without taking the single line into account. I can’t really tell the differences between these trains and ones that stick rigorously to schedule (I’ve been on both)