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Has anyone had success appealing against the train driver simulator assessment at second fail?

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gc1990

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Hi, as the title suggests I'm looking for some advice regarding appealing a 'fail' on the second chance of the simulator assessment in the final train driver exams for SWR.

I'm posting on behalf of my partner. He had his second attempt at the simulator today and he unfortunately did not pass.

He has been told he can appeal the decision within 7 days and has said that he'd like to do this.

His track record as trainee driver has been perfect. No failures or problems up until this simulator assessment. He was a guard for 5 years prior to starting his training as a driver in Nov 2018.

Is it worth asking ASLEF for help?

I can provide more details if necessary.

Thanks so much
 
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train_lover

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I've been in the rail industry for a good number of years now and this is the first case I know of someone failing the sim and being taken off the course.

Is he with ASLEF already? I assume as a guard he was with RMT but left when he started training. If he is with ASLEF the he must seek advice from the asap.

What are the company proposing? Go back to being a guard?
 

Twotwo

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Sorry to hear.

It is worth going to Aslef and see if they can do anything. Was there a reason why it was a fail? My toc don't do simulator assesments so I'm not too sure how lenient it's supposed to be but I know in the 5 day the driver manager is allowed tk prompt you and your allowed to get a few stuff wrong but anything that is a safety concern will be a straight fail. I don't no how lenient swr driver managers are.
 

theking

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There must have been problems prior to this or he hasn't taken onboard the feedback from the first fail.

To fail there has to be serious issues whilst he is in the simulator they wont fail you twice for something minor
 

Stigy

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Hi, as the title suggests I'm looking for some advice regarding appealing a 'fail' on the second chance of the simulator assessment in the final train driver exams for SWR.

I'm posting on behalf of my partner. He had his second attempt at the simulator today and he unfortunately did not pass.

He has been told he can appeal the decision within 7 days and has said that he'd like to do this.

His track record as trainee driver has been perfect. No failures or problems up until this simulator assessment. He was a guard for 5 years prior to starting his training as a driver in Nov 2018.

Is it worth asking ASLEF for help?

I can provide more details if necessary.

Thanks so much
Hi, sorry to hear this. Am I right in thinking that this falls after the classroom stuff and driving hours with SWR, and that technically you get only two goes at it, then that’s it? It’s unfortunate and I’ve heard of people failing these. I’m not at that stage yet but it’s obviously going to be a nerve wracking situation. Not sure on the specifics, but approaching ASLEF can’t do any harm I guess? Has he been told he can go back as a Guard? That’s naturally not what he wants though I understand.
 

gc1990

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Hi all, thanks for your responses.

I am not sure how to use this forum, can't figure out how to quote and reply sorry!

Yes he is with ASLEF, was with RMT beforehand.

He had barely any driving hours in the 6ish weeks running up to his simulator exam because of driving instructor shortages and I said over and over again that this couldn't be right. Surely they'd want their trainees to be driving as much as possible with a DI prior to the exams?

He had his coupling/uncoupling exam and passed without any issues. Simulator exam comes next and he has had his 2 goes. One 3 weeks ago and one today. Again, no driving hours between then and now.

He had one training and feedback session on the simulator a few Saturdays ago, but that's the only practice he has had on the simulator.

At a loss as he is gutted and it's bewildering to me that they've put him into the final assessments despite his lack of driving in recent weeks. He did get the correct amount of light and dark hours but he managed to get those back in October time and since then has had barely any practice on a train let alone a simulator.

We are going to appeal but would be really useful to know if anyone has gone through a similar process.
 

gc1990

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Oh, and in response to going back to being a guard, the operations manager at the training centre today gave him a list of vacancies at his company he can apply to. Guard included.

All a bit horrible really.
 

theking

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To be honest the simulator is nothing like driving so him having no driving inbetween doesn't really make a difference if he has the correct number of hours to be at the final exam stage.

The simulator is used for out of course situations, how to deal with emergency situations faults etc how you communicate how you react etc.

I would defo appeal but doubt he will get anywhere via the lack of actual physical driving.
 

Twotwo

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What was the feedback he got after the first attempt?

Like @theking mentioned, I've only known the simulator to be used to see how you react and deal with different scenarios and if you able to follow the correct procedure i.e animals on the line, spad, overshooting and leaf adhesion etc
 

Stigy

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Hi all, thanks for your responses.

I am not sure how to use this forum, can't figure out how to quote and reply sorry!

Yes he is with ASLEF, was with RMT beforehand.

He had barely any driving hours in the 6ish weeks running up to his simulator exam because of driving instructor shortages and I said over and over again that this couldn't be right. Surely they'd want their trainees to be driving as much as possible with a DI prior to the exams?

He had his coupling/uncoupling exam and passed without any issues. Simulator exam comes next and he has had his 2 goes. One 3 weeks ago and one today. Again, no driving hours between then and now.

He had one training and feedback session on the simulator a few Saturdays ago, but that's the only practice he has had on the simulator.

At a loss as he is gutted and it's bewildering to me that they've put him into the final assessments despite his lack of driving in recent weeks. He did get the correct amount of light and dark hours but he managed to get those back in October time and since then has had barely any practice on a train let alone a simulator.

We are going to appeal but would be really useful to know if anyone has gone through a similar process.
With what you’ve said, I’d say he’d have a good chance at appeal. I don’t think it’s acceptable to expect somebody to go straight in to an assessment on a sim without actually driving a train for so long. Did he have any sim sessions at all, in the time he wasn’t getting driving hours in? Do you know the specifics on what he failed on? I’d recommend getting proper advice from ASLEF, that’s what he pays them for after all.
 

choochoochoo

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I thought you had to sign something before you do an assessment to say you feel you have received adequate training and are ready to be assessed.
 

Stigy

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What was the feedback he got after the first attempt?

Like @theking mentioned, I've only known the simulator to be used to see how you react and deal with different scenarios and if you able to follow the correct procedure i.e animals on the line, spad, overshooting and leaf adhesion etc
Certainly SWR and GWR have a sim assessment in addition to standard simulator sessions as part of the classroom training and this forms part of their pass out phase (at about 200 driving hours at GWR, but can’t answer for SWR). These assessments are one of several points one can ‘fail’ and it’s a case of two shots at it and if you don’t pass, that’s it. As with most things like this though, it’s not set in stone, and there are circumstances whereby candidates will no doubt have more than two attempts.
 

ComUtoR

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Is it worth asking ASLEF for help?

They are your partners best option. Sadly, I don't think they can help. Their primary role would be to ensure that everything was done according to procedure and fair working practice. If there was an issue with how he was treated or if something was carried out incorrectly; then maybe.

Simulator exam comes next and he has had his 2 goes. One 3 weeks ago and one today.

If this is the correct process for SWR then as long as that has been followed and done in a fair way, I don't think the appeal will be successful. My TOC also uses the simulator as part of the final assessment.

The simulator, as has been mentioned, is not a driving test. It is a rules test for out of course situations. This is because there will be scenarios that cannot be replicated on the mainline. Such as, and not limited to, Temporary Block Working, emergency and assistance protection, single line working etc. As this is a rules test, driving isn't required. It is difficult to maintain your rules during your hours but it is always a Drivers responsibility to ensure they are competent at all times, irrespective of how long they have been driving. At my TOC its hard to fail but not unknown. The Assessor tends to help out where they can and prevent someone from going down a rabbit hole. Unfortunately there are cases where people fall down on rules (simulator or otherwise). You need to pass all parts, not just driving.

He had one training and feedback session on the simulator a few Saturdays ago, but that's the only practice he has had on the simulator.

Was that the first fail ? My TOC is not required to give a second attempt. When they do it is because someone has been close to passing or they believe that with a bit of time, there is room to improve and would succeed at a second attempt. Allowances are made for nerves and the pressure Trainees are under and if that was a factor, again, a second go is typically given.

At my TOC we also have to sign to say you are ready for an assessment. This is a little bit of a get out clause for the TOC because the Trainee states they are ready. From an appeal perspective, have a very good look at procedure and company policies. ASLEF can only really help if something has gone wrong. Due to the way that assessments are carried out, there is a lot of evidence as to how and why the Trainee hasn't met the current standards. It can often be very specific and that a very hard line is drawn. As has been mentioned, anything safety related would be a hard line in the sand. A simple thing like "when should you not sound the horn" would be treated differently from "are you allowed to pass this signal at danger" The first could potentially be appealed against, but the second I doubt would be successful.

He needs to sit down with ASLEF, the Ops Manager, his assessor, his Instructor and discuss what his best options for the future are.

All a bit horrible really.

On the face of it yes. It is very upsetting to fail and even more so because of the time and effort that goes in to training. Nobody wants you to fail and there should be enough support to get people through.

I think the good part of railway recruitment is that you do often get offered a second chance and you get offered an alternative if you don't make it. My TOC states quite clearly that if you don't pass, there is no job. To get offered another role can often show that they still want you as an employee.

It's gutting but this job doesn't suit everyone. As I said in another thread. You get failures are every stage. The deeper you go, the worse it feels. Personally I'd rather fail at the training stage than have an incident and fail as a Driver. That could involve losing your job. I would also ask ASLEF and the Ops Manager if there was a possibility to reapply for Driver in a couple of years. It is not unheard of to switch to another TOC and pass there. Rare, but possible.

At this moment in time, ASLEF are your best option. Get as much evidence as possible as to how his training has been going, check procedures and policies, check if there is any precedent that has been set before and also thing about the best option for the future.

Good luck with it all.
 

gc1990

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Thanks so much for all your thoughtful responses. As mentioned I'm just the partner and don't have any experience at all with the railway, so just going from my limited knowledge at the moment! We will speak to ASLEF tomorrow and go from there. Really appreciate all the help.
 

Kse

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Definitely speak to ASLEF. I know of someone who failed their second attempt, appealed with ASLEF and had a third attempt.

He had extenuating circumstances, some family issues and lack of consecutive driving hours so if you were to apply and something was going on behind the scenes *cough cough*.

Best of luck.
 

gc1990

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Thank you, Kse.

As a side note how strict are other TOCs with the whole 'no train driver applications after you've failed the simulator twice' thing?

Is the tube the same? We're in London so TFL is a possibility.
 

Stigy

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Thank you, Kse.

As a side note how strict are other TOCs with the whole 'no train driver applications after you've failed the simulator twice' thing?

Is the tube the same? We're in London so TFL is a possibility.
I didn’t know there was such a process. I guess it would be difficult potentially to be recruited by another TOC at this stage, but it’s not like the initial assessments (psychometric) where you get two failed goes and that’s it.
 

43066

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Oh, and in response to going back to being a guard, the operations manager at the training centre today gave him a list of vacancies at his company he can apply to. Guard included.

All a bit horrible really.

Sorry to hear about this.

If he was previously a guard with a good record at the same TOC, would he not be able to switch back to that without applying for the job again? Appreciate that’s not what he wants but would at least keep a decent wage coming in (I assume he has kept his guard’s salary and T’s and C’s even as a trainee driver?).

To be honest the simulator is nothing like driving so him having no driving inbetween doesn't really make a difference if he has the correct number of hours to be at the final exam stage.

The simulator is used for out of course situations, how to deal with emergency situations faults etc how you communicate how you react etc.

I would defo appeal but doubt he will get anywhere via the lack of actual physical driving.

I would tend to agree with this. Certainly the simulator assessments where I trained where more like a practical version of the rules exam, dealing with out of course situations etc. which can’t be replicated on the mainline.

There was also a straightforward, open process by which someone who failed the simulator (or any other part of the process) would be offered further training with a DI before taking the assessment again - often with a different examiner to ensure there was no clash of personalities etc.

As someone else has commented, the difficulty the OP’s partner may well face will be that he will likely have signed something to say he was happy that he was ready to be assessed.

The harsh reality is that the assessment should really be a natural conclusion to the training process, undertaken only once the trainee is ready for it. Clearly there are people who struggle with various areas of the training but weaknesses should be identified and dealt with well before the assessment and shouldn’t come as a surprise.

I would also agree with @ComUtoR, the job isn’t for everyone and, if it isn’t for him, it’s better to find that out now than when he’s out driving on his own - appreciate that probably won’t be much consolation at this stage.

@gc1990, would it be possible for your partner to post directly to explain exactly what went wrong? It might be possible to give more specific advice if he does so.
 
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jballz72

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So as I read it,

1st attempt failed, then had a day in the sims covering the parts that wasn’t passed.
2nd attempt failed, by not showing the assessor that he wasn’t competent in correcting the parts he had previously failed on.
Is there any chance of posting which area’s not passed? As it would give us a good insight into how serious or non serious they were.
The lack of driving is not the issue here as the sims is to see if you are competent enough in following rules & procedures, also having two attempts and still not rectifying the first failed attempt maybe show to the assessor he might not be cut out for driving.
If SWR have followed procedure then it might be difficult for ASLEF to get this overturned and request a Third attempt.
Do approach ASLEF and see what they can do, no harm in trying.
Going forward I wish you all the best.
 

WA_Driver

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Honest answer and sorry to be the bearer of bad news....

But NO one in the history of SWR/SWT (as far as I know) has been given a third chance at a drivers final. By all means you can get ASLEF involved they will do all they can to help and advise but unless you had extenuating circumstances or there is a massive screw up by the training school there is very little hope.

I do wish you luck and hope I am proven wrong. Good luck though in the future
 

TheVicLine

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I am not with SWR but I've never heard of anyone fail driver training or a SIM assessment. It's not in the TOC's interest, they do everything they can to get a pass.
 

Twotwo

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When I worked at swr, I did hear of at least 4 people failing their 5 day. It's more a little unheard off in other tocs so I think swr are really strict and have high standards.
 

ComUtoR

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One of ours failed on the Sim about a month back. First time I had ever heard of it.
 

DA1

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How do the sim assessments work? What do you have to do? Run through routes? Routes with conditions? Also when do they take place?
 

Twotwo

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How do the sim assessments work? What do you have to do? Run through routes? Routes with conditions? Also when do they take place?

I'm not too sure but I would assume its more more out of course emergencies.
 

ComUtoR

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Each 'run' will have a pre programmed scenario. Mostly, as Twotwo says, out of course situations. The Assessor will have a script to read through (to assure fairness) and will typically play the part of the Signaller/Control. You 'drive' it as you normally would and react to whatever you see in front of you. You can pause each run in various places and the Assessor can ask related rules questions etc. I've only ever seen a short run to show the capabilities of Sim based route learning so its possible there are Sims out there with full routes.

Our are used throughout the rules course, on your final assessment week, and at each yearly Driver assessment. They can also be used for Traction training as they replicate faults and failures and most onboard systems. A DI may or may not use one during manual handling to augment training.

At my TOC every Trainee is pretty much shown the assessment runs and walked through them in detail. There should be no surprises and as its a rules based test, you should be pretty competent before you are assessed.

A failure on the Sim is a pretty big shortcoming. Failing twice on a Sim :/ I'm interested to know the outcome of this as rules are an area where you could develop and help the Trainee rather than lose someone.
 
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