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Has the future of GA's class 317/321s been decided?

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gnolife

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Hard to keep this meme free. Dear lord, where to begin. The intention at time of construction is irrelevant. They haven't aged well and anyone who uses them semi-regularly knows this. Same for 317s. LM replaced theirs in the late 2000s, GN a bit later. They form the bulk of the GA fleet unlike Scotrail which in majority runs 380s, 385s and 365s on electric services with modern 170s and well refurbished 158s on the remainder. 317s, 321s creek and rattle to no end, the seating is angled and low and horrific more over 40 minute journeys, thy aren't PRM compliant and the refurbished units are in some ways worse, and the screeching noise can be heard form the inside if too many windows are open meaning you can't even have a conversation. It reminds me of 3rd world transport on a bad day. They were supposed to be replaced years ago had it not been for a succession of short term franchise extensions granted.
Dunno which Scotrail you've been using, but the one I know hasn't got 365s, and uses a fair sizes fleet of 318s and 320s on the Argyle line
 
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jonty14

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Except they are though, aren't they? Just because some enthusiasts don't want to face reality isn't a good enough excuse to refurb this junk and make another part of the country suffer for another 20 years.
Here we go again with another dig at enthusiasts. Getting a bit boring
 

class379

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379s are mostly likely to stay on GA. There are no known takers for 321s, even the Renatus ones at the moment, in that context it's difficult to see the 317's and most of the 321s surviving the cutter's torch even if conversion to Hydrogen is successful. We're talking about life-expired trains, transfer to other areas will not go down well with the natives.

As much as I love the 321s and the 317s, neither of them can survive in their current state (minus the Retuanus 321s) for another 10 years without serious attention but even then that isn't really cost-effective. I must say however, the 321s seem in better condition and in my opinion aged better. As for the 379s, they do have a lot of options future - wise, battery convertion, DC conversion etc.
I live on the West Anglia main line and grew up with the 317s seen the 379s introduction to service, but just like the GN 313s, the 317s just aren't up for the job anymore...(as much as I love them)
 

delticdave

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I would imagine, though i have no proof, that the Renatus 321s (or at least some of them) will stick around on the GEML / Southend Vic for a while, if nothing other than cover branch diagrams where the 5 car 720s won't fit certain platforms like the bays at Wickford (and that will take years to fix I suspect). I don't know if there are any other short platforms elsewhere (Battlesbridge, Cressing, White Notley perhaps, though they may be long enough for a 5-car 720, maybe the Walton and Harwich branches too?).

This link will tell you many things about the Southminster branch.....https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Route-Specifications-2016-Anglia.pdf
But, it doesn't mention the length of the Wickford bays.......
 

61653 HTAFC

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I could see some of Northern's 321/322 fleet going on short-term loan to GA as they are 2020-compliant unlike many of the GA units. Northern borrowed Silverlink 321s in the past to cover for their own units going in for refurbishment, so there's a sort-of poetic justice about it= Northern cast-offs helping out in "that London";).
321901 is already in warm store at Heaton.
 
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bramling

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Hard to keep this meme free. Dear lord, where to begin. The intention at time of construction is irrelevant. They haven't aged well and anyone who uses them semi-regularly knows this. Same for 317s. LM replaced theirs in the late 2000s, GN a bit later. They form the bulk of the GA fleet unlike Scotrail which in majority runs 380s, 385s and 365s on electric services with modern 170s and well refurbished 158s on the remainder. 317s, 321s creek and rattle to no end, the seating is angled and low and horrific more over 40 minute journeys, thy aren't PRM compliant and the refurbished units are in some ways worse, and the screeching noise can be heard form the inside if too many windows are open meaning you can't even have a conversation. It reminds me of 3rd world transport on a bad day. They were supposed to be replaced years ago had it not been for a succession of short term franchise extensions granted.

From a user's point of view I don't find a 317 or 321 horrific, and during their time on GN I don't ever recall hearing users commenting negatively on them, with one slight exception being the poor legroom at times when most or all seats were taken. I'd take a 317 or 321 over a 700 any day.
 

jon0844

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317s were noisy if you chose the wrong coach (easy to avoid!) and the doors knocked when a train passed, or going through tunnels, but I had no complaints about comfort - bar the odd sunken seats (easily repaired).

Bar other issues underneath that a mere user isn't aware of, I'd put these units along with the 313s as trains that could go on 'forever' if given the right level of attention. Same for the 319s, 321s etc.
 

bramling

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317s were noisy if you chose the wrong coach (easy to avoid!) and the doors knocked when a train passed, or going through tunnels, but I had no complaints about comfort - bar the odd sunken seats (easily repaired).

Bar other issues underneath that a mere user isn't aware of, I'd put these units along with the 313s as trains that could go on 'forever' if given the right level of attention. Same for the 319s, 321s etc.

I would always take the motor car. However as you rightly say the other three cars are very quiet indeed, with the exception of the compressor.

321s in particular ride exceptionally well, even in the motor car. 317s more variable to be fair.

The refurbished 317/6 units have an excellent interior ambience and layout, again only thing missing has been upkeep.
 

class379

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Except none of the 321s are life-expired. That is the problem.
I agree, they are only 30 years old now, the still accelerate the same speed as they always have, paintwork looks to be in good condition and even the interior of the non - Retanus units is OK and quite comfortable.
 

Aictos

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The Class 317s did the job, the best interior though is what the 317/6s have - it’s just a pity that when they refurbished the Class 317/2s to become Class 317/6s that they didn’t bring the Class 317/1s to the same standard of refurbishment.
 

F Great Eastern

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Have to say the 317s with the fairly low back seating that feels like you are sitting on the floor are well past their best and need to be sent to become razor blades as soon as possible, the ex Stansted ones are slightly more tolerable but need to be sent to razor blade factory soon too.

As for the 321s, the ones without the Renatus upgrade can be a mixed bag, I was on two yesterday and one was in excellent condition and the other one was a bit of a heap. Yes the seats are poor angle and the PIS can be unreliable and the bad ones really are lacking TLC, but can survive for a couple of years more if needbe and there are no other major problems. They do what they say on the tin and the good ones are a little more steady over the tracks than the Renatus, even if the one I was on last night was very lively.

Now the Renatus units just scream cheap, crap, poor build quality refurb. I have to say that they look nice, and the seats are an improvement. However the AC is crap, the same crap PIS, the lights are overpowering, plug sockets never worked from day 1, ride quality is worse, especially in first class (which has a shocking layout) and doors unreliable. The Renatus upgrade is a big example of style over substance.

For the EMUs on the franchise I'd go
- Class 360
- Class 379
- Class 321 (original)
- Class 321 Renatus (if build quality was better and AC/socket worked it'd be 3rd)
- Class 317
 

Failed Unit

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The Class 317s did the job, the best interior though is what the 317/6s have - it’s just a pity that when they refurbished the Class 317/2s to become Class 317/6s that they didn’t bring the Class 317/1s to the same standard of refurbishment.

I can’t answer all of this. But the 317/6 was created to match the standards of the 365. WAGN didn’t have enough to ensure a consistent product. Once they got hold of the connex 365s then all their premium ecml services could have better standard of trains and the 317s became common user.

Put prism refurnished the 313s at the same time. They were short of money. Maybe it ran out or the 317s were overhauled under BR. Prism were trying to improve standards so why the entire 317 fleet was not done I am not sure.
 

Aictos

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Similar to how the Class 313s and Class 317s got fitted with CCTV but the Class 365s never did...

Yes I’m aware the Class 317/6 was created to emulate Class 365 interior which is partly why as a GN user I didn’t appreciate them being allocated to the WA when WAGN was broken up as they’re by far the most comfy 317s in use.
 

Bikeman78

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Oh really. Explain.
Around the world there are plenty of trains that are way more than 30 years old. Some are well into their 40s and 50s. I didn't particularly like the 321s when they were new but they're not much worse now than they were then. The Renatus ones are worse the originals.
 

Bikeman78

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Any idea what subclass of Class 317s are diagrammed? Would it be the nice and comfy Class 317/6s or even the ex GTR ones?
Any AGA 317 can turn up on any route booked for 317s. I think that has been the case since they stopped running on the Stansted Express.
 

chubs

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Around the world there are plenty of trains that are way more than 30 years old. Some are well into their 40s and 50s. I didn't particularly like the 321s when they were new but they're not much worse now than they were then. The Renatus ones are worse the originals.

Around the world there's also countries which much newer fleets with 30 years being the oldest and ready for the razor blade factory.
 

Terry Tait

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I think 317s are good, I had a lovely journey on one from Broxbourne to Liverpool Street on Monday, it was so smooth and quiet, must have been an extremely talented driver.
 

Islineclear3_1

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With my rose tinted spectacles on, I commuted on Class 321's regularly when operated by Network SouthEast and then Great Eastern (or whoever their parent company was then). Indeed, I missed the slam door 302/307/309s they replaced but the 321s were good trains at the time. Same when under Great Eastern, they were reliable and well maintained. I don't travel on them as much these days but have had the pleasure (or displeasure) of travelling on some of the Renaltus ones. At least I got to my destination and back on time on each occasion
 

MrPIC

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A friend saw one of the PRM mod 317 units the other day, unusual toilet style but looks decent from the photoIMG_20191105_231638.jpg
 
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ashkeba

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If they have put the toilet off to the right, then they may have cured both the slow doors problem and the "accidental grand reveal" problem of the circular design accessible toilets. I do wonder whether there's space to turn a wheelchair in there, or whether people will have to try to reverse out and then use the wide space outside to turn.
 

fgwrich

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What an odd door arrangement they've gone for. I'm also surprised they've kept the small toilet window with it's frosted glass!

Going back to the debate of the 317s v 321s. I don't travel that often out in the Great Eastern area, however have had the pleasure of the "Renatus" 321s out to Witham earlier this year and didn't find it too bad. However, I do agree about the comments regarding the ride quality and heating / air con, which did seem to be off despite it being the coldest days of February. However, they certainly felt a lot better than the 317/6 I had into Liverpool Street last night. Possibly not the greatest of moves on my part (sat in the motor coach), but found it to be very rough riding across the pointwork and some of the curvey stress from Hackney Downs to Bethnal Green. The motors seemed very choppy too - not something I've experienced from a similar 318 & 455 before.
 
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