Has the Man in Seat 61 had his day?

[squizzler]

It seems like a long time that the Man in Seat 61 has been a the Bradshaws for the international train traveller, and indeed it is a very useful resource if you take time to drill into it for the information you need. many of us on this forum have probably directed people interested in going overseas onto Seat61.

My concern is that, useful as it is, this resource is probably rather intimidating to newbies and there are more accessible ways of finding out how to take the train abroad. Loco2 and TheTrainLine Europe make it easy to find an itinerary that works for the prospective traveller. As high speed rail continues to spread and long distance trains generally become more consistently high quality, I think that the need for a blow-by-blow guide are reduced, and in fact can be harmful by inadvertently portraying train travel as difficult.

Seat61 feels a bit prescriptive: "Thou shalt taketh the 1545 from St Prancras, and the righteous man is he who has bagsied seat numbereth 61". Yes, people who take the train need to know exactly what seat number to ask for. Presumably Seat61 isn't anymore the perch for those in the know as the first generation Eurostars are phased out?

What do forum members think? Is Seat 61 something you would recommend to "normals" who want to travel by train, or would you simply direct them to one of the commercial online journey planning and booking systems?

 

[takno]

There are still plenty of non-timetable things it's worth finding out in advance, such as whether different networks have mandatory reservations, whether advertised services actually run, and what the general state of play is. In any case, if I'm planning a trip for 6 months time I want to know that there are summer-only trains to Barcelona once a day taking about 18 hours, with tickets that can be bought up to 3 months in advance and may sell out up to a week before. I don't want to go searching an online timetable which either tells me what is happening in the current season, or will tell me about the future with the risk that plans haven't been input yet and no data is available.

Even for the UK network, if you send "normals" to look at a commercial online planner without any guidance on how to use it you are doing both them and the train network a tremendous disservice.

 

[Jordeh]

You make a lot of interesting points and it isn't something I really considered before. When it comes to high speed rail, it does have it's limitations and I would use an actual journey planner given the frequency of most HSR routes.

I do however love it for finding out about how rail travel is in each country and it is especially good for sleeper trains which often do not show up in journey planners. For instance it goes into a lot of detail about the quality of sleeper services and compelling descriptions of the scenery you will see.

So essentially I think it's good for people travelling vocationally or using sleeper trainers - however for regular use of intercity trains, journey planners like Loco2 and national rail websites are likely to be better.

Loco2 certainly has the potential to be the SkyScanner of rail for intercity train journeys in Europe - although personally I wouldn't be surprised if a website succeeds at showing high speed rail and airline journeys side-by-side. It could well be SkyScanner that succeeds at it, shame about it's name though.

 

[317666]

I still direct people I know to Seat61 - I think as rail enthusiasts we forget that some things which are second nature to us are pretty bewildering to everyone else, and Seat61 breaks things down in a way which anybody can understand. Plus, it provides a bit more information on the journey (what there is to see, what the trains are like and so forth) which may be enough to tempt people into using the train rather than flying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit like a brochure, selling the idea of international rail travel in a way no journey planner never will.

 

[Alfonso]

I think it still does an excellent job of giving useful information to many people, and giving both colour-by-numbers information, details of quirks and foibles of different booking systems, and practical advice about how to make trips Moe enjoyable by eating and drinking on trains and near stations. I've never taken it as "thou shalt" but "here's some ideas". It's difficult to appeal to everyone but it does better than anything else out there.

 

[30907]

I'm with 317666 on this.
If you know pretty much where you want to go (and it's in Western Europe), and just want to get there, then Loco2 is an excellent booking engine. It is also good on ideas for destinations.
Its information pages are sometimes out of date though (no entry for Nightjet, but a page telling you what CityNightLine was) and very generic.

So if you want an overview of the options from A to B, suggestions for stopovers, pictures of actual trains, and reliable detail, then Seat61 wins hands down. I do find some of the pages overlong and repetitive though - I think that's a function of how the site is set up.

 

[Warwick]

It seems like a long time that the Man in Seat 61 has been a the Bradshaws for the international train traveller, and indeed it is a very useful resource if you take time to drill into it for the information you need. many of us on this forum have probably directed people interested in going overseas onto Seat61.

My concern is that, useful as it is, this resource is probably rather intimidating to newbies and there are more accessible ways of finding out how to take the train abroad. Loco2 and TheTrainLine Europe make it easy to find an itinerary that works for the prospective traveller. As high speed rail continues to spread and long distance trains generally become more consistently high quality, I think that the need for a blow-by-blow guide are reduced, and in fact can be harmful by inadvertently portraying train travel as difficult.

Seat61 feels a bit prescriptive: "Thou shalt taketh the 1545 from St Prancras, and the righteous man is he who has bagsied seat numbereth 61". Yes, people who take the train need to know exactly what seat number to ask for. Presumably Seat61 isn't anymore the perch for those in the know as the first generation Eurostars are phased out?

What do forum members think? Is Seat 61 something you would recommend to "normals" who want to travel by train, or would you simply direct them to one of the commercial online journey planning and booking systems?

It seems like a long time that the Man in Seat 61 has been a the Bradshaws for the international train traveller, and indeed it is a very useful resource if you take time to drill into it for the information you need. many of us on this forum have probably directed people interested in going overseas onto Seat61.

My concern is that, useful as it is, this resource is probably rather intimidating to newbies and there are more accessible ways of finding out how to take the train abroad. Loco2 and TheTrainLine Europe make it easy to find an itinerary that works for the prospective traveller. As high speed rail continues to spread and long distance trains generally become more consistently high quality, I think that the need for a blow-by-blow guide are reduced, and in fact can be harmful by inadvertently portraying train travel as difficult.

Seat61 feels a bit prescriptive: "Thou shalt taketh the 1545 from St Prancras, and the righteous man is he who has bagsied seat numbereth 61". Yes, people who take the train need to know exactly what seat number to ask for. Presumably Seat61 isn't anymore the perch for those in the know as the first generation Eurostars are phased out?

What do forum members think? Is Seat 61 something you would recommend to "normals" who want to travel by train, or would you simply direct them to one of the commercial online journey planning and booking systems?

Who or what are "normals"?

 

[dutchflyer]

I well remember his first days, when he tried to steer anyone into 1st cl. sleepers. At least he has accepted that for many people the expense of travel does have its things to say. Plus that those sleepers are also nearly gone now.
I am sometimes however disappointed as to how scarce the info is for some countries, plus the way he now seems to tell anyone that the lowst fares are just there for the picking. In former jobs I had to follow general trends in travel also on sites like TA-tripadvisor or LP/Thorntree and there he is still liked and acclaimed.

 

[squizzler]

I'm with 317666 on this.
If you know pretty much where you want to go (and it's in Western Europe), and just want to get there, then Loco2 is an excellent booking engine. It is also good on ideas for destinations.
Its information pages are sometimes out of date though (no entry for Nightjet, but a page telling you what CityNightLine was) and very generic.

I am a real fan of Loco2 because in my view it combines a deceptively simple and cleanly designed journey planning engine with a blog that proudly flies the flag for international train travel, the latter often with handy infographics you can use for settling arguments! I agree however that the traveller information is not always the best.

I also agree that it should not really be needed for Western Europe (Eurozone € countries) - if it wasn't for the two cities one either end of the principle Eurostar Route. The poor provision of cross city transfer in London and Paris leave a couple of gaps where advice should be heeded from the (literally) streetwise rail traveller: figure out how to cross these gaps and Europe is yours for the taking! Notwithstanding that I think the best advice for somebody considering taking the train to their overseas holiday is to use a commercial journey planner site for some shorter excursions and use Seat61 or similar when the time comes for something more adventurous, or for future reference.

So if you want an overview of the options from A to B, suggestions for stopovers, pictures of actual trains, and reliable detail, then Seat61 wins hands down. I do find some of the pages overlong and repetitive though - I think that's a function of how the site is set up.

Overlong repetitive pages? I certainly think the web design is showing its age. Not important for us, but to the prospective international train traveller this could perpetuate a negative stereotype of rail travel as somehow out of date.

I want to stress I have nothing personally against Seat61: it was flying the flag for international travel long before anyone else. The man in seat61 himself made a successful site (and go-to talking head for train advice for the broadcast media) from his interest so more power to his elbow. There have however been several things that made the rail offering different in all the years seat61 has been live:

• people in UK are becoming more rail savvy
• High speed network and progressive elimination of terminus stations (at Stuttgart, Berlin, Vienna, Lille, etc) make the long distance network feel more metro-like
• Continued enhancement of service frequency and open access operators now provide too many options and too fluid a market to explain in a few static webpages
• Trains are becoming more consistent in quality (the newbie is less likely to end up on a true stinker)
• Journey planning websites continue to improve, including realistic transfer times.

You wouldn't tell new motorists they must study the police road craft manual before they consider driving down to the shops (actually I would because it would discourage people from driving so much but I digress), but of course some will will be keen and want to learn how to drive more proficiently after doing it for a bit. I tend to view seat 61 inn the same light and personally might dip into it after planning a trip to see if seat61 does something similar to what I found online, and if any of the advice applies to my trip.

 

[Gadget88]

I’ve found his page helpful but I must admit sometime flying is easier as I don’t like long train journeys.

 

[CC 72100]

It's a bit like a brochure, selling the idea of international rail travel in a way no journey planner never will.

Agreed - for me his website (and here) is a bit of a starting point for journeys in Central and Eastern Europe especially.

There's also nothing wrong with sharing info on the lowest fares - at the end of the day, I view it as an inspiration starting point, and saying just how cheap it can be is the way to get people interested

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

having just found out about TheTrainLine europe from this forum I thought I'd look up a journey I've always wanted to do by train... despite saying that it includes eurostar it will only route me via ouibus between London and Paris... why?

 

[transmanche]

Loco2 certainly has the potential to be the SkyScanner of rail for intercity train journeys in Europe - although personally I wouldn't be surprised if a website succeeds at showing high speed rail and airline journeys side-by-side. It could well be SkyScanner that succeeds at it, shame about it's name though.

I think www.goeuro.co.uk shows air/coach/rail journeys side-by-side.

 

[Dougal2345]

It's a useful site and I often visit.

My one gripe is how frequently sleeper options are recommended... I'm a solo traveller, I don't fancy couchettes and booking a whole sleeper compartment is astronomically expensive compared to daytime trains and overnighting in an Ibis. But daytime options for getting between countries are often not detailed at all.

 

[30907]

Daytime options for getting between countries are often not detailed at all.

Can you give an example? Just done a dozen random searches on routes where there is an obvious sleeper option, and in each case day trains are detailed.

 

[30907]

having just found out about TheTrainLine europe from this forum I thought I'd look up a journey I've always wanted to do by train... despite saying that it includes eurostar it will only route me via ouibus between London and Paris... why?

I can't get ouibus at all - though eurolines and flixbus appear along with Eurostar. Are you trying a date beyond the timetable change in December?

 

[Dougal2345]

Can you give an example? Just done a dozen random searches on routes where there is an obvious sleeper option, and in each case day trains are detailed.

Perhaps I've unfairly slandered the site - it was my impression that that was the way things were when I've looked in past years, but you're right, mostly daytime options are given now - the only exception I could find after a quick search was London-Bucharest, which only details sleepers between Budapest and Bucharest, despite there being a (rather gruelling) daytime option, 07:10-23:02 (according to Deutsche Bahn, randomly looking at this coming Wednesday).

 

[30907]

Perhaps I've unfairly slandered the site - it was my impression that that was the way things were when I've looked in past years, but you're right, mostly daytime options are given now - the only exception I could find after a quick search was London-Bucharest, which only details sleepers between Budapest and Bucharest, despite there being a (rather gruelling) daytime option, 07:10-23:02 (according to Deutsche Bahn, randomly looking at this coming Wednesday).

Budapest-Bucharest was one I looked at, and it does mention day trains, interestingly. Whereas from London he only gives times to places in western Romania.

 

[Chris999999]

I have found Seat61 useful in the past, but I no longer use him since he started using his site to advertise his anti-Brexit views.

 

[306024]

I may have to start using his site more often in that case.

Always found it helpful, if it doesn’t tell you what you want simply look eleswhere on the interweb, but no, wouldn’t say it has had its day at all.

 

[CC 72100]

Should it be a major surprise that a website that promotes European travel between nations and easy connections and across borders is supportive of European integration?

You must be very lucky to be able to make consumption choices based on the political views of the organisation's leader. I wholly disagree with Brexit but it doesn't stop me going into a Wetherspoons pub!

 

[30907]

I have found Seat61 useful in the past, but I no longer use him since he started using his site to advertise his anti-Brexit views.

Google can find one reference to Brexit on the site, as can I.
Think you mean his Twitter account?
And if my family was among the millions whose future is still uncertain, I would sympathise even if I disagreed.

 

[Chris999999]

I think you misunderstand my objections. It is not that he is anti-brexit (I can understand why he is). My objection is to using a factual site for political purposes. I would be just as unhappy if he was using his site for pro-GTR, pro-brexit, pro-Jeremy Corbyn, anti-Jeremy Corbyn etc.

Once a factual site becomes used for political purposes its trustworthiness diminishes significantly in my view and I would think many others who don't want politics fed to them continuously feel the same. It may have been as the OP suggested that there are now other sites which provide international travel information and that this was an attempt to increase visitors to his site.

I see today that he has removed the feed from his news pages, but I suspect the damage has been done.

 

[tivoli]

I agree many people have become more confident booking international train & ferry travel without an agent, but for me I wouldn't have gained that confidence without Seat61 and even now doublecheck my plans with Mark's advice. I regularly refer people just starting out considering independent travel to the site, I may be wrong but I can't think of a better place to start from. As for Brexit, it is described as a personal website, it is up to him what comments he makes. I dislike the Daily Mail but if there is an article which I feel would be interesting I would still read it, there is no point avoiding something if you end up denying yourself information to help you create your own opinion. I do avoid Wetherspoon's though!

 

[bspahh]

seat61.com is great for tips and tricks on routes.

For example, from London to Basel, the quickest routes are via Paris, and the fastest routes via Brussels use a Thalys train to Cologne, which ends up being expensive. However, seat61 has a link to a tweaked a search at www.bahn.de to add in a stop in Brussels, to ICE trains instead of the Thalys. If you book in time, these have Sparpreis tickets which are cheaper price. Flying is quicker and often cheaper, but I prefer taking the train.

I'm also going to Ljubjana in a few months for a conference. The convenient flights to Ljubjana are now really expensive. Seat61.com mentioned the route from Venice to Trieste, then with a tram and then on with another train to Ljubjana. Google Maps gets some of this route, but it doesn't pick it out, as being a nice and interesting route.

 

[Iskra]

It’s still a very useful tool, and crucially the information is accessible in perfect English.

It’s also useful to see different ways of getting from A-B that you might not have discovered if you use an operators website or booking engine.

Photo’s and a relatively impartial review of a journey are valuable too as operators websites often don’t include much detail and you get their marketing spin rather than a true perspective.

I think it’s a great starting point, but you shouldn’t blindly follow all the advice as it is very train-orientated (and especially favours sleeper trains) and you need to remember it’s your journey so apply your own individualism and that the recommendations may not always be the best option for you.

 

[OldandRambling]

For me, Seat 61 is an excellent rail site. The guy gives examples of easy connections, he does not say you HAVE to follow them. To criticise it as a very train-orientated site seems strange, are we not train fans on railforums???
Many folk think of hopping on Easyjet or Ryanair, all Mark is doing is showing in detail that passenger rail is a possible alternative.
I have used it for travel info further afield, I find Loco2 rather lacking for my Indian train information.

If folk are interested, there are a couple of "trip reports" from my old bloke travels on Indian trains, a sort of "what not to do" guide!

https://www.indiamike.com/india/journal.php?do=showentry&e=1396&enum=1

https://www.indiamike.com/india/journal.php?do=showentry&e=1405&enum=2

Cheers,

Ed.

 

[richa2002]

I think you misunderstand my objections. It is not that he is anti-brexit (I can understand why he is). My objection is to using a factual site for political purposes. I would be just as unhappy if he was using his site for pro-GTR, pro-brexit, pro-Jeremy Corbyn, anti-Jeremy Corbyn etc.

Once a factual site becomes used for political purposes its trustworthiness diminishes significantly in my view and I would think many others who don't want politics fed to them continuously feel the same. It may have been as the OP suggested that there are now other sites which provide international travel information and that this was an attempt to increase visitors to his site.

I see today that he has removed the feed from his news pages, but I suspect the damage has been done.

+1 to this. Still, with the amount of invaluable information on his site, I'll let him off being a rampant remoaner .

 

[Joe Paxton]

OK, this is an easy one, as it follows Betteridge's law...

Q: Has the Man in Seat 61 had his day?

A: No.