Has the Virgin brand name become toxic?

[6Gman]

When I was little, I used to love the Virgin brand, with black and red HST's, it looked so modern and sleek, especially when the voyagers where first introduced. However, following on from Virgin's failed bid for the West Coast mainline, all my respect for Richard Branson went, He literally became a child throwing his toys out of the pram! Since then Virgin got a short term extension but lost the franchise again a few years later, meanwhile on the ECML, Richard Branson got angry about GNER & NXEC both failing on the East Coast franchise, Virgin then won the bid in 2015, and after a few years was forced to hand back to the government after making heavy losses. More recently there have been reports of contract issues between Virgin & the NHS, and recent reports of a government bailout for Virgin Australia & government loan request Virgin Atlantic have proven to have really hit the Virgin brand.

Given all these events over the last few years, Does anyone else think hat the Virgin brand has become toxic? Or do you think that i maybe a certain political bias have an agenda against Richard Branson?

I certainly look forward to hearing people responses. *FYi, Can we please keep this about the Virgin group, and not about the owner.

I cannot abide Branson or the Virgin brand, but ...

The "failed" bid was a valid bid badly dealt with by the DfT. Though the Branson/Virgin response may have seemed petulant it was justified.
They handed back the ECML franchise largely because of Network Rail failures which shredded their business case.
Virgin Health submitted a bid for an NHS contract with a particular Health Trust. They failed to win the contract and went into dispute with the Trust. The Trust chose to make an out of court settlement, which might suggest that they had a weak case.

So on these three issues it would appear that Virgin may have been the victim of the actions of the DfT, NR and the Health Trust.

But I still cannot abide Branson or the Virgin brand. I just think they should not be criticised for the failings of others.

 

[alexjames10]

Perhaps Bletchleyite above would explain how small limited companies which pay their proprietors nominal salaries and the balance via dividends can access HMG support. I have operated such an enterprise for many years. There are no other
employees other than myself (paid annually, hence not on the February 2020 payroll) thus the furlough thing does not work.

I have no need of a business loan. Or any other loan. I retired from the debt market towards the end of the previous century. Because I have had my support in advance, for many years, by way of a lower average income tax rate than my cleaning lady, I have, already been paid. The fact that I have long since invested my net cash tax advantages in such essentials as booze, travel, football expenses etc is entirely because I chose to do that rather than save it for a “rainy day”. It is merely a timing difference.

Methinks that there are many in HM Treasury who take the view that I am an undeserving cause and have drafted the legislation accordingly.

I agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps Bletchleyite above would explain how small limited companies which pay their proprietors nominal salaries and the balance via dividends

The point I was making is that that is avoiding tax, so you can't really complain when you don't get the benefits that you'd be paying for if you had paid it.

I think there will be changes in the law to stop that approach.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I use(d) Virgin Atlantic all the time. Delta (my favourite airline) owns 49% of them. So I would travel about once every 6 weeks CHA - ATL -MAN and return. The Chattanooga to Atlanta leg would be on Delta and the ATL - Manchester leg on Virgin but DL codeshare VS109/110 or DL4355/4354 if you are interested. I have flown their 747 and A330 aircraft in Economy, Premium Economy and Upper Class. In my opinion they are a pretty damn good airline with good service. I will be sorry of they go under. I think the Virgin brand has become tarnished rather than toxic as I said upthread. I do not think they should get bailout money though. I think it sends the wrong message especially in view of Branson's previous comments.

 

[devonexpress]

It appear the consensus is that the Virgin brand is tarnish rather than toxic, however will there be much of the Virgin group left by the end of this is another question yet to be answered.

 

[bramling]

It appear the consensus is that the Virgin brand is tarnish rather than toxic, however will there be much of the Virgin group left by the end of this is another question yet to be answered.

Especially with Mr B starting to get on now.

 

[alexjames10]

The point that Bletchleyite seems to be not entirely aware of is that there have been many changes to the tax laws covering the point we are discussing. All have failed to stop the tax leakage. Future attempts are equally likely to fail. And that is because orthodox Treasury thinking is that anything that deters “entrepreneurship“ is a bad thing economically. There is merit in that argument. But people such as myself who are as about as entrepreneurial as a lamp post will just take advantage of it.

Successive Governments have taken advantage of the fact that the vast majority of the UK population have no understanding of UK taxation. If they had, there would have been, in the recent past, million person marches through London and elsewhere, all chanting “change the Corporation Tax thin cap rules now”.

The fact that less than 1%, I think, of Forum members will understand my final sentence above probably proves my point.

In a belated attempt to get back on on topic, I will point out that RB is a rather good actor. He is a mate of a mate. I’m advised that he is somewhat the shy and retiring type. Thus his appearance as a “Virgin Bride” was him forcing himself to make an exhibition of himself with a view to getting, let us say, £50M worth of free publicity. Just about worth it.

I took an instinctive dislike to him yonks ago at a stage when he was just beginning to get famous. An obvious fake in my view. An utterly brilliant media manipulator. I particularly liked the bit about him living in a houseboat on the canal in Maida Vale. Obvious nonsense but the media lapped it up. As did those who read such stuff and are incapable of critical thinking. Why live in a houseboat when you can easily afford something so much better. A decent house nearby, for example.

Thus I take the view that the demise of his Oz airline along with the imminent collapse of his UK airline is simply events catching up with my thinking.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin were a competent operator of the WCML and, although not aimed at the likes of us on here, their brand bought a bit of glamour to the railway.

Their staff appeared to be incredibly loyal. On their final day of operation loads of their staff turned out in full uniform to travel on the final service. I can't imagine this this sort of thing happening with any other operator.

Avanti haven't exactly covered themselves in glory since they took over - imagine what the service would have been like if they'd operated the WCML since 1997.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti haven't exactly covered themselves in glory since they took over - imagine what the service would have been like if they'd operated the WCML since 1997.

I'd look at GWR - it'd have looked very much like that, I reckon. FirstGroup's style is not glitz, it is operational competence very similar to BR. I still think the way GWR feels now is likely no different than it would have been had it never been privatised. The wires would have gone up and some decent but a bit boring EMUs would have been procured...near enough (delays and bi-modes aside) what happened there.

Did FirstGroup bid for the original WCML franchise? Anyone know what exactly the bid entailed?

 

[Jozhua]

I do like Virgin's willingness to try something different, cable TV, tilting trains, space tourism, etc. Then there's even more questionable investments like the Virgin "Hyperloop", although my feelings on Hyperloop are probably for another thread...

They have done some legitimate good for rail though, they seem to be eager with the Brightline project, and extending that, I believe there are talks underway too for a train between LA and Las Vegas, under the Virgin brand.

Suing the NHS and begging for bailouts isn't best for brand perception though...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Especially with Mr B starting to get on now.

Sir B to you

 

[devonexpress]

I do like Virgin's willingness to try something different, cable TV, tilting trains, space tourism, etc. Then there's even more questionable investments like the Virgin "Hyperloop", although my feelings on Hyperloop are probably for another thread...

They have done some legitimate good for rail though, they seem to be eager with the Brightline project, and extending that, I believe there are talks underway too for a train between LA and Las Vegas, under the Virgin brand.

Suing the NHS and begging for bailouts isn't best for brand perception though...

First Great Western did Volo TV long before Virgin brought their on board tv in.

 

[devonexpress]

Virgin were a competent operator of the WCML and, although not aimed at the likes of us on here, their brand bought a bit of glamour to the railway.

Their staff appeared to be incredibly loyal. On their final day of operation loads of their staff turned out in full uniform to travel on the final service. I can't imagine this this sort of thing happening with any other operator.

Avanti haven't exactly covered themselves in glory since they took over - imagine what the service would have been like if they'd operated the WCML since 1997.

It depends on what kind of glamour you want, I felt Virgin trains acted more like an airline than a railway company, it's all very well having sparkly trains and nice uniforms, but if you can't get the train from a to b on time what's the point? Personally I think GWR have the tone just right, it's got a bit of glamour and nostalgia, with the brand and Pullman dining, but it get's on with the job of running a railway.

 

[Jozhua]

First Great Western did Volo TV long before Virgin brought their on board tv in.

Referring to TV at home rather than on trains, as Virgin Media uses a coaxial cable network, similar to how the US gets TV, Internet and Phone.

 

[gazthomas]

Referring to TV at home rather than on trains, as Virgin Media uses a coaxial cable network, similar to how the US gets TV, Internet and Phone.

I don't think that's the case any more?

 

[Darandio]

I do like Virgin's willingness to try something different, cable TV, tilting trains, space tourism, etc.

I really think you are giving them far too much credit here.

1, Cable TV was in the UK long before Virgin decided they wanted in, all they did was buy a leading company.
2, The initial West Coast franchise required two bids from each company bidding for the franchise of which one involved tilting stock so Virgin weren't alone with that.
3, The Russians started selling seats on spacecraft to tourists in the late 90's, they launched the first in 2001.

 

[37424]

Never been a fan of Mr Branson my whole impression of any of his businesses are all hype and no substance, but with the majority of his businesses its usually a case that they go into partnership with another company that has the actual experience of running that business, and Virgin really becomes the marketing end of the business added to which shareholding varies from being a majority shareholder in some to a very much minority shareholding in others. He also jumps in and out of various business which I suspect contribute to neither a consistent product or values or message. Perhaps he should have just stuck more to his beloved Airline.

As for the man himself well such as Alan Sugar clearly he's a real hard nosed business man who I suspect has been a right **** on many occasions to get where he is, but he doesn't hide the fact and you know what your getting. Now I expect Branson is similar but has tended to hide until recently at least under a more goody positive PR image, but more recently I think he is showing his true colours more and the brand is becoming toxic. He 69 anyway so maybe he just needs to retire to his island or concentrate on his play thing Virgin Galactic.

 

[rebmcr]

Referring to TV at home rather than on trains, as Virgin Media uses a coaxial cable network, similar to how the US gets TV, Internet and Phone.

I don't think that's the case any more?

It is. I complained to the ASA myself about them branding it 'fibre optic' when the line to peoples' homes is copper coax (and shared with the whole street too). The ASA unhelpfully replied "no, it's aluminium".

 

[Jozhua]

It is. I complained to the ASA myself about them branding it 'fibre optic' when the line to peoples' homes is copper coax (and shared with the whole street too). The ASA unhelpfully replied "no, it's aluminium".

Omg "no, it's aluminium" has to be the worst response. To my knowledge, aluminium is not such a good conduit for light.

 

[gazthomas]

It is. I complained to the ASA myself about them branding it 'fibre optic' when the line to peoples' homes is copper coax (and shared with the whole street too). The ASA unhelpfully replied "no, it's aluminium".

Crickey

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends where. Virgin does have some of the FTTH (fibre to the home) contracts.

 

[RT4038]

The signs about not flushing "your ....hopes & dreams, goldfish... down the toilet" in the Mk4 & 390 carriages say a huge amount about what the Virgin brand is:- no substance, just a lot of silly PR gimmicks that baffle people into believing that it is a good firm and in the process making lots of money for Branson.

Perhaps if you were at the other end of clearing toilet blockages caused by people ignoring clear standard dull 'Do not .....' type notices, you might be glad of something innovative to attract the attention of those people. Not a silly PR gimmick at all. Perhaps you could come up with something more/as effective, rather than just criticising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps if you were at the other end of clearing toilet blockages caused by people ignoring clear standard dull 'Do not .....' type notices, you might be glad of something innovative to attract the attention of those people. Not a silly PR gimmick at all. Perhaps you could come up with something more/as effective, rather than just criticising.

It was effective enough that it spread to all the Stagecoach TOCs (which never did the Virgin glitz thing) and a few others too.

It's a bit like the 3 Ss (no, not the morning ones) - does anyone here *not* know the number to text the BTP on? It's grossly annoying but incredibly effective.

 

[dgl]

Omg "no, it's aluminium" has to be the worst response. To my knowledge, aluminium is not such a good conduit for light.

But it is a lightweight material

 

[rebmcr]

It is. I complained to the ASA myself about them branding it 'fibre optic' when the line to peoples' homes is copper coax (and shared with the whole street too). The ASA unhelpfully replied "no, it's aluminium".

Omg "no, it's aluminium" has to be the worst response. To my knowledge, aluminium is not such a good conduit for light.

Crickey

Oh, and IIRC about 250 other people had made the same complaint.

 

[duffield]

Oh, and IIRC about 250 other people had made the same complaint.

It's true that they should be more accurate in their advertising; however via the coax I do get a rock-solid consistent 100Mbits/s and I think I could get around 400Mbits/s still via coax, so for most people the distinction is probably academic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's true that they should be more accurate in their advertising; however via the coax I do get a rock-solid consistent 100Mbits/s and I think I could get around 400Mbits/s still via coax, so for most people the distinction is probably academic.

I think other companies shout about fibre when it's fibre-to-the-cabinet, though?

 

[dgl]

I think other companies shout about fibre when it's fibre-to-the-cabinet, though?

Precisely, I bet a high percentage of people who have "fibre" actually only have fibre up to the green cabinet and it's standard copper telephone wire from then on (FTTC), so by that reasoning Ofcom must be happy with it being called fibre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely, I bet a high percentage of people who have "fibre" actually only have fibre up to the green cabinet and it's standard copper telephone wire from then on (FTTC), so by that reasoning Ofcom must be happy with it being called fibre.

There's certainly a need to differentiate it from traditional ADSL which is fibre-to-the-exchange. It is many orders of magnitude superior.

 

[dgl]

There's certainly a need to differentiate it from traditional ADSL which is fibre-to-the-exchange. It is many orders of magnitude superior.

That is true, although minimum FTTC speeds are not actually that much better than good ADSL2+ speeds.