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Has the Virgin brand name become toxic?

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devonexpress

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When I was little, I used to love the Virgin brand, with black and red HST's, it looked so modern and sleek, especially when the voyagers where first introduced. However, following on from Virgin's failed bid for the West Coast mainline, all my respect for Richard Branson went, He literally became a child throwing his toys out of the pram! Since then Virgin got a short term extension but lost the franchise again a few years later, meanwhile on the ECML, Richard Branson got angry about GNER & NXEC both failing on the East Coast franchise, Virgin then won the bid in 2015, and after a few years was forced to hand back to the government after making heavy losses. More recently there have been reports of contract issues between Virgin & the NHS, and recent reports of a government bailout for Virgin Australia & government loan request Virgin Atlantic have proven to have really hit the Virgin brand.

Given all these events over the last few years, Does anyone else think hat the Virgin brand has become toxic? Or do you think that i maybe a certain political bias have an agenda against Richard Branson?

I certainly look forward to hearing people responses. *FYi, Can we please keep this about the Virgin group, and not about the owner.
 
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gazthomas

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I was never impressed, always felt it was superficial. Remember, VT never owned any rolling stock assets. There have been more failed Virgin brands than succssses, all part of business I guess but it shows not everything that Branson touches turns to Gold. We, as UK PLC should not bail out an airline that has been his hobby and one that is 51% owned by Delta, a US listed public company
 

devonexpress

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I was never impressed, always felt it was superficial. Remember, VT never owned any rolling stock assets. There have been more failed Virgin brands than succssses, all part of business I guess but it shows not everything that Branson touches turns to Gold. We, as UK PLC should not bail out an airline that has been his hobby and one that is 51% owned by Delta, a US listed public company
I agree, once I got older and saw Virgin behaved over the WCML, I realised they where all style no substance, since then i've been more of a fan of FGW/GWR.
 

gazthomas

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I agree, once I got older and saw Virgin behaved over the WCML, I realised they where all style no substance, since then i've been more of a fan of FGW/GWR.
On FGW/GWR I've been marginally more impressed. They got lumbered with the IETs but I think they've done the best of a bad job
 

devonexpress

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On FGW/GWR I've been marginally more impressed. They got lumbered with the IETs but I think they've done the best of a bad job
Agreed, before then with HST's as someone said to me, they where more a continuation of British Rail.
 

bramling

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When I was little, I used to love the Virgin brand, with black and red HST's, it looked so modern and sleek, especially when the voyagers where first introduced. However, following on from Virgin's failed bid for the West Coast mainline, all my respect for Richard Branson went, He literally became a child throwing his toys out of the pram! Since then Virgin got a short term extension but lost the franchise again a few years later, meanwhile on the ECML, Richard Branson got angry about GNER & NXEC both failing on the East Coast franchise, Virgin then won the bid in 2015, and after a few years was forced to hand back to the government after making heavy losses. More recently there have been reports of contract issues between Virgin & the NHS, and recent reports of a government bailout for Virgin Australia & government loan request Virgin Atlantic have proven to have really hit the Virgin brand.

Given all these events over the last few years, Does anyone else think hat the Virgin brand has become toxic? Or do you think that i maybe a certain political bias have an agenda against Richard Branson?

I certainly look forward to hearing people responses. *FYi, Can we please keep this about the Virgin group, and not about the owner.

I’d say no but it seems to be heading that way.

Virgin Trains to be fair wasn’t a bad operation after an extremely bad start, but a lot of that may have been thanks to Stagecoach’s influence.

Branson needs to stop throwing toys out of the pram when something doesn’t quite go his way.
 

gazthomas

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Agreed, before then with HST's as someone said to me, they where more a continuation of British Rail.
It's funny you should say that. I come from North Wales and the HSTs were really poorly maintained before they were replaced again with loco hauled stock then finally the Voyagers and Pendolinos. I remember in 1998 in Crewe watching a guard closing a HST door with their foot and feeling thoroughly depressed with it all
 

GRALISTAIR

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I was never impressed, always felt it was superficial. Remember, VT never owned any rolling stock assets. There have been more failed Virgin brands than succssses, all part of business I guess but it shows not everything that Branson touches turns to Gold. We, as UK PLC should not bail out an airline that has been his hobby and one that is 51% owned by Delta, a US listed public company
I think it is 49% Delta and 20+ % AirFrance/KLM - but yes should not government bailout money.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed, before then with HST's as someone said to me, they where more a continuation of British Rail.

I've said that before and I still think they are - they are more about being operationally competent than glitzy. I think the GW is a fairly good indication of what it would have looked like had BR continued, the 80x included.
 

Jamesrob637

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Branson was an idol of mine growing up. Less so nowadays; but not everything he does is wrong. Virgin are collaborating with the NHS in their own way if any of you out there have Instagram and check out his page.
 

bramling

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Branson was an idol of mine growing up. Less so nowadays; but not everything he does is wrong. Virgin are collaborating with the NHS in their own way if any of you out there have Instagram and check out his page.

Not at all, Virgin Trains in its heyday wasn’t a bad operation at all. Even the Pendolinos have really grown on me over the years, although I wouldn’t have quite done the interior layout as it is. But overall VT was pretty solid operationally, and decisions like bringing in Chris Green no doubt contributed to this. VT also in my experience tended to uphold pride and professionalism amongst its staff, Euston gateline and coach K excepted! ;)
 

Ashley Hill

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Perhaps Virgin should have stuck with the music industry instead of jumping onto the privatisation band wagon. I always got the impression that Branson thought he could run it like an airline.
 

Jamesrob637

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Not at all, Virgin Trains in its heyday wasn’t a bad operation at all. Even the Pendolinos have really grown on me over the years, although I wouldn’t have quite done the interior layout as it is. But overall VT was pretty solid operationally, and decisions like bringing in Chris Green no doubt contributed to this. VT also in my experience tended to uphold pride and professionalism amongst its staff, Euston gateline and coach K excepted! ;)

Don't forget the promos they did - a tenner from Manchester to London! I know I can regularly get Manchester to London for £12-13, but that takes 4-5 hours not 2 and a bit, and involves changing trains in Crewe or Stoke.
 

riceuten

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I think taking the proprietor's name out of it probably cripples the discussion, as he is the brand and the brand is he, and people identify it as much. I would hazard a guess that you're quite fond of him as well.

What I can say without getting into personalities is that Virgin's brand is tarnished - and less relevant than it was even a short while ago. The proprietor's skill has been how he has made money, by licensing the brand to firms where perhaps he personally only owns a small stake - Virgin Media and Virgin Mobile. Also, by licensing a brand you can make a lot of money - sometimes unlinked to performance - with little or no stake in the firm, and minimal capital risk.

Stelios has done something similar with the Easy branding and licensing, though what I do like about him is that he is at ease explaining where he went (sometimes catastrophically) wrong - Branson is not. Stelios works with trade unions for instance. Branson wants to get rid of them.
 

riceuten

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markindurham

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Branson is on record as saying, during/after the banking crisis, that, in essence "The government shouldn't bail out BA - if it fails, so be it. Other airlines will step in or new ones will take its place". Oh, the irony of him hoping for a bail out now...
 

Vespa

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I've used Virgin rail, that's about as far as my involvement with the brand, never used Virgin air, mobile etc.

I found Virgin trains to be fine, travelled on Virgin Value booking pre internet, later booking online and migrated to First Class,found the facilities and service to be fine, they've refunded when things went wrong no quibble.

I found little change when I moved over to Avanti.

So that could due to what's working under the skin, Virgin being just a brand.
 

D365

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Branson was an idol of mine growing up. Less so nowadays; but not everything he does is wrong. Virgin are collaborating with the NHS in their own way if any of you out there have Instagram and check out his page.

I can only echo @riceuten’s comment above.

Also, anyone who is involved with the “5k Challenge” - please do not donate through Virgin Money.
 

Ian Hardy

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The signs about not flushing "your ....hopes & dreams, goldfish... down the toilet" in the Mk4 & 390 carriages say a huge amount about what the Virgin brand is:- no substance, just a lot of silly PR gimmicks that baffle people into believing that it is a good firm and in the process making lots of money for Branson.
 

bramling

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The signs about not flushing "your ....hopes & dreams, goldfish... down the toilet" in the Mk4 & 390 carriages say a huge amount about what the Virgin brand is:- no substance, just a lot of silly PR gimmicks that baffle people into believing that it is a good firm and in the process making lots of money for Branson.

I don’t feel qualified to comment on the wider aspects of Virgin and it’s brand, however Virgin West Coast *was* more than gimmicks IMO.

A complete fleet replacement with what are by any stretch decent trains (I know the interior isn’t to everyone’s taste, but operationally they’re sound). The Voyagers have their issues but generally the West Coast ones seem to be regarded as fit for purpose. Decent performance and reliability and for the most part an enthused and motivated staff. Making the VFH timetable work was in itself no mean feat. And at the basest level they managed to run the west coast TOC with a sound safety culture, without falling into some of the pitfalls we saw with for example Southall or Ladbroke Grove.

I’m no fan of Virgin’s spin, but all in all I don’t think we can regard their West Coast tenure as anything other than positive. Which is just as well considering Virgin must have done quite well out of it financially.
 

Bletchleyite

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The signs about not flushing "your ....hopes & dreams, goldfish... down the toilet" in the Mk4 & 390 carriages say a huge amount about what the Virgin brand is:- no substance, just a lot of silly PR gimmicks that baffle people into believing that it is a good firm and in the process making lots of money for Branson.

The trouble is that for everyone who thinks that about Virgin, there's two who think it's fun and attractive. And those are more young people who are the market of the future.

As for VTWC, I agree that while I didn't agree with everything they did they were a very competent TOC and they are missed now we are enduring the lackadaisical and can't be bothered attitude Avanti are showing.
 

bramling

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The trouble is that for everyone who thinks that about Virgin, there's two who think it's fun and attractive. And those are more young people who are the market of the future.

That’s exactly it. Virgin exhudes a “chilled” ethos, and some people like this. Add in that Branson can pull theatrical PR performances out of the hat, for example the triumphant Glasgow to London speed run on the one hand, and the sombre response to the Grayrigg derailment on the other.

People like to hear statements like “our driver was a hero he stayed at the controls” or “our trains are built like tanks”, they can relate to this style of communication. Tony Blair mastered a similar style of communication, albeit taking it several levels of sophistication higher than Beardy.

If we think back to West Coast, it’s hard to think who might have actually done better. First never seemed to quite grab Great Western, and GNER was a little to up itself for their own good and IMO didn’t put quite enough focus into operational performance. National Express became increasingly “bargain basement”. Arguably Stagecoach would have made a good job of it, but VWC was essentially a Stagecoach operation anyway. Arriva meanwhile have done nothing with XC.

I don’t think we’re heading for a mass boycott of Virgin products. I do think Virgin Group has passed its peak, but that’s not through the brand having gone toxic.
 
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Tetchytyke

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I used to like both Branson and the Virgin brand. It was interesting and the original disruptor. I loved him giving both barrels to BA, especially when BA was going through the world tail fins period, and still wish he'd been allowed to take over Concorde. The hot air ballooning, all that sort of thing, all just good fun. Whisper it quietly but I even really liked Virgin Cola.

The problem is it's a lot harder to trade on a rebel disruptor image when you're worth four billion quid and live in the BVI to avoid paying tax in the UK. His behaviour towards the UK taxpayer in recent years, both with Virgin Trains and Virgin Care, has been deplorable.

If I'm honest my strong dislike of Branson these days is borne out of the fact I did like him and the Virgin brand a lot as a kid. Hero is too strong a word, but to see someone you liked turn into everything you dislike is disappointing.

I can't be alone in thinking the same way?
 

Bletchleyite

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I think we could well see a shift in the view on tax-avoidance from this situation. If so, this could itself become toxic. The Government has provided huge amounts of assistance - including to people who *are* avoiding bits of tax e.g. owners of businesses paying themselves in dividends instead of a salary commensurate with their role. I don't think it's going to be seen as acceptable to take that money and continue avoiding tax with regard to repaying it.
 
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