Has there ever been a direct rail service from Far North to Edinburgh (or Glasgow)?

[Clansman]

Had a jolly up the Far North Line today and I must say, what a long and scenic trip it was, but what surprised me the most was the amount of passengers who connect up from the capital and Glasgow. Just wondering if there has ever been a direct service from Wick to Edinburgh as the North economy would benefit dearly from it, and there seems like a lot of demand too. A friend of mine who is a guard for Scotrail has had countless times where Passengers are travelling south of Inverness on connecting services after being serenaded with train time requests.

Do you think a direct service from Wick to Edinburgh would be worth looking into for when the HSTs come? It could run as a limited stopper, calling at all principal stations (those without request stops) until Inverness, where it runs semi-fast, calling at Aviemore-Kingussie-Pitlochry-Perth-Haymarket (via Stirling). It would run once a day - leaving Wick (or Thurso) at around 7ish, and Edinburgh in the afternoon for the Northbound service, similar arrangement to what the Highland Cheiftain does to and from London. The only issue however I can see would be where to stable/maintain the HST. Also, the turn around at Georgmas Junction wouldn't help things journey time wise. Fitting of RETB would be required as well as stopping points for stations with a short platform. What normally happens to trains up there anyway (well, the 158s) - I take it they are probably stabled overnight and are maintained at Inverness the following day? Also, wasn't there talk of a Sleeper service connecting the Capital from the Far North too?

Article about the Sleeper service: http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk...-between-Caithness-and-Edinburgh-17042016.htm

 

[Altnabreac]

Had a jolly up the Far North Line today and I must say, what a long and scenic trip it was, but what surprised me the most was the amount of passengers who connect up from the capital and Glasgow. Just wondering if there has ever been a direct service from Wick to Edinburgh as the North economy would benefit dearly from it, and there seems like a lot of demand too. A friend of mine who is a guard for Scotrail has had countless times where Passengers are travelling south of Inverness on connecting services after being serenaded with train time requests.

Do you think a direct service from Wick to Edinburgh would be worth looking into for when the HSTs come? It could run as a limited stopper, calling at all principal stations (those without request stops) until Inverness, where it runs semi-fast, calling at Aviemore-Kingussie-Pitlochry-Perth-Haymarket (via Stirling). It would run once a day - leaving Wick (or Thurso) at around 7ish, and Edinburgh in the afternoon for the Northbound service, similar arrangement to what the Highland Cheiftain does to and from London. The only issue however I can see would be where to stable/maintain the HST. Also, the turn around at Georgmas Junction wouldn't help things journey time wise. Fitting of RETB would be required as well as stopping points for stations with a short platform. What normally happens to trains up there anyway (well, the 158s) - I take it they are probably stabled overnight and are maintained at Inverness the following day? Also, wasn't there talk of a Sleeper service connecting the Capital from the Far North too?

Article about the Sleeper service: http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk...-between-Caithness-and-Edinburgh-17042016.htm

I would say it's fairly unlikely. I'm sure around 10-15 years or so ago there was a regular Aberdeen - Wick train although I suspect it was more for operational convenience than expectation of many through journeys.

Reasons it won't happen:
Unbalanced demand north and south of Inverness.
Different stock used north and south of Inverness.
RETB.
Performance pollution of 2 services with long single track sections each making the other worse.
Long journey time makes break at Inverness quite desirable.

Really the most useful things for people on this route will be speeding up HML journeys, making the HML service hourly, improving the reliability of Far North (dynamic loop at Lentran, reinstate Kinbrace Loop) and reducing journey times on Far North (Georgemas Curve, track replacement, level crossing removal, limited station closures (Scotscalder, Kildonan, Culrain).

Once all those things were done it might make a through service more viable but perhaps less necessary.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not sure about Edinburgh but during World Wars One and Two, when Scapa Flow (in Orkney) was a major Royal Navy base, there was a direct London to Thurso service!

 

[Bletchleyite]

limited station closures (Scotscalder, Kildonan, Culrain).

Is this a serious proposal? Doesn't seem a lot of point, just make them request stops if they aren't already.

 

[47271]

If it helps, there's an extensive discussion of the Far North Edinburgh sleeper idea around #1300 in the Caledonian Sleeper thread.

The sleeper struck most of us as very unlikely. A daytime service seems slightly more plausible, but some of the arguments against are covered above.

My only additional comment - expanding the performance pollution point - as a regular HML user is that Inverness conductors do a lot of work holding connections and arranging alternative transport for passengers when late running occurs in either direction. Late running all the way from Edinburgh to Caithness could become something very late indeed and disproportionately inconvenience local users both through the delay to the service itself, and disruption of crossover times over hundreds of miles distance from Perth to Wick.

 

[Class 170101]

Only one platform at Inverness I belive is accessible to both Aberdeen / HML lines and to those of the Far North.

The few trains that do this shunt via Rose Street.

The performance impact of linking across these routes on a regular basis is high and not recommended duw to the large amounts of single lines.

 

[Altnabreac]

Is this a serious proposal? Doesn't seem a lot of point, just make them request stops if they aren't already.

Closure of Scotscalder and Georgemas with a new station at Halkirk replacing both and a new curve for Thurso has been proposed fairly seriously in the past.

Beyond those 2 nothing apart from the abortive Transport Scotland Rail 2020 consultation a few years back that wound up Glasgow politicians and was entirely counterproductive.

I'd like to see stations with no traffic, no tourist potential and no passing loop infrastructure removed.

Breich, Springfield, Barry Links, Golf Street, Beasdale, Culrain, Kildonan, Scotscalder, Lochluichart, Duirinish contribute nothing to the network and slow services down.

Get rid of them says I!

 

[route101]

Didn't there used to be one from Kyle to Edinburgh or Glasgow?

 

[Railsigns]

Only one platform at Inverness I believe is accessible to both Aberdeen / HML lines and to those of the Far North.

Actually, there is none (the connecting line from Platform 5 towards Aberdeen/HML is ground frame operated and not available to passenger trains) although a new platform on the Rose Street Curve has been proposed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Closure of Scotscalder and Georgemas with a new station at Halkirk replacing both and a new curve for Thurso has been proposed fairly seriously in the past.

I do think a station at Halkirk would make sense.

Breich, Springfield, Barry Links, Golf Street, Beasdale, Culrain, Kildonan, Scotscalder, Lochluichart, Duirinish contribute nothing to the network and slow services down.

Get rid of them says I!

What about your namesake? Not exactly busy, is it?

 

[Altnabreac]

I do think a station at Halkirk would make sense.



What about your namesake? Not exactly busy, is it?

Wash your mouth out! We're not closing that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wash your mouth out! We're not closing that!

Thought not

 

[philjo]

Didn't there used to be one from Kyle to Edinburgh or Glasgow?

yes - we had a holiday staying near Kyle about 15 years ago. My brother was leaving a day early and he caught the train from Kyle which took him through to Edinburgh. I think it was the late morning departure as he had an onward ECML connection at Edinburgh (but could be wrong on the time).

 

[Iskra]

If there is going to be a 'slightly less slow' service from Wick/Thurso-Central Belt, I think 2 things should happen:

1) It should only be implemented after the aforementioned improvements to the HML and FNL.
2) It should start as a summer-only service to test demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there any through coach services? That, as it's quite a lot easier to arrange, might give a reasonable guide?

 

[Ianno87]

Actually, there is none (the connecting line from Platform 5 towards Aberdeen/HML is ground frame operated and not available to passenger trains) although a new platform on the Rose Street Curve has been proposed.

And I think only 2 cars or so will fit between the ground frame and buffer stops anyway?

 

[brompton rail]

Even in the (BR) days when the sleeper ran nightly from Edinburgh (& Glasgow) it terminated in Inverness. A connection was made with the first Kyle train, although the first Far North train departed a little later. The overnight sleeper (& seated accommodation) train also connected with the CityLink coach to Ullapool for the Stornoway ferry. The Kyle train had a bus connection ( passengers used the Kyle - Kyleakin ferry to reach the bus at Kyleakin) to Portree (Skye) and bus to Uig for the boat to Tarbert (Harris) or North Uist. In earlier times the train would have connected at Kyle with Mail boat to Stornoway.

It is more difficult today to make a land / sea journey to the Western Isles than it was last century as the ferry routes now have been shortened to suit cars and lorries. No longer sleeper central Scotland to Highlands or cabins on overnight ferries. "You can't stop progress"!

 

[matchmaker]

Didn't there used to be one from Kyle to Edinburgh or Glasgow?

There was certainly a Glasgow - Kyle service at some point - still ran in the early 2000's.

 

[D6975]

Even in the (BR) days when the sleeper ran nightly from Edinburgh (& Glasgow) it terminated in Inverness. A connection was made with the first Kyle train, although the first Far North train departed a little later.

T'other way around, the far north was first, the Kyle followed 30 mins later. It was a standard bashing move, first far north to Dingwall, first Kyle to Achnasheen, back to Dingwall on the inbound Kyle and back to Inverness in the inbound far north. Four locos before 10:00.

In some winter timetables the Kyle used to start at Dingwall, pax changing off the far north service.

 

[anti-pacer]

Even in the (BR) days when the sleeper ran nightly from Edinburgh (& Glasgow) it terminated in Inverness. A connection was made with the first Kyle train, although the first Far North train departed a little later. The overnight sleeper (& seated accommodation) train also connected with the CityLink coach to Ullapool for the Stornoway ferry. The Kyle train had a bus connection ( passengers used the Kyle - Kyleakin ferry to reach the bus at Kyleakin) to Portree (Skye) and bus to Uig for the boat to Tarbert (Harris) or North Uist. In earlier times the train would have connected at Kyle with Mail boat to Stornoway.

It is more difficult today to make a land / sea journey to the Western Isles than it was last century as the ferry routes now have been shortened to suit cars and lorries. No longer sleeper central Scotland to Highlands or cabins on overnight ferries. "You can't stop progress"!

They had a sleeper from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness??? How long did that take?

 

[47271]

They had a sleeper from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness??? How long did that take?

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1175

You can learn quite a bit about the nature of the Inverness to Glasgow sleepers in the early 1980s from the report into this unfortunate incident at Pitlochry in September 1983.

 

[D1009]

And I think only 2 cars or so will fit between the ground frame and buffer stops anyway?

If my memory hasn't failed me, I recall it wasn't particularly unusual for trains from the south to run past Inverness on the avoiding line and propel into the station.

 

[jimm]

Not sure about Edinburgh but during World Wars One and Two, when Scapa Flow (in Orkney) was a major Royal Navy base, there was a direct London to Thurso service!

There's an account of the Second World War operations here, which says sleepers were provided north of Inverness on these trains.

http://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/0109/010921.html

 

[Agent_c]

Is this a serious proposal? Doesn't seem a lot of point, just make them request stops if they aren't already.

I could see closing either Culrain or Invershin. Before Carbisdale Castle closed I was suprised by just how close these stations are.

I think they are both request stops now though.

Back on topic, I think one of the HST sets will be too big to be justifiable on the far north line. 2-3 cars is about right.

 

[cf111]

Such a service did exist under National Express, it ran from Edinburgh to Wick and formed the last service north on weekdays. This would have been shortly after the 158s took over the operation.

The train normally came in to platform 4 at Inverness, then reversed at Welsh's Bridge to access the Far North Line. The toilets were always a disgrace from Inverness north.

 

[Clansman]

Back on topic, I think one of the HST sets will be too big to be justifiable on the far north line. 2-3 cars is about right.

Presuming you mean passengers wise (platforms are really small up there though) The same could be said with the Highland Chieftain though. It only ever starts to become full at around Perth/Stirling heading Southbound. A HST, even just a 4 car one, up the Far North would encourage more to take to the rails and provide an extra service. Similar to the Chieftain, the service would be more likely to start to fill up at larger stations as it progresses:

The Chieftains case, the major stations for passengers would be Inverness, Perth, Stirling, Haymarket, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Darlington, York.

A direct HST up the Far North, the major stations for passengers would be Wick, Thurso, Tain, Alness, Invergordon, Dingwall, Connon Bridge?, Muir of Ord, Beauly?, Inverness, Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry, Perth, Haymarket

Also, I don't know if it suits folk time wise, but I find a lot of passengers tend to take a HST over a 158, 170 on the Scotrail network. For example, I was heading to London from Perth yesterday, and there were 2 trains going to Edinburgh: The HST (09:57) and the Perth-Edinburgh local (10.02), both of which arrived into Edinburgh at the same time. However, when I got to the station, I noticed Platform 4 was notably busier for the HST than what Platform 5 was for the local, with a number of folk I saw board at Perth alight at Haymarket and Edinburgh.

I don't know if it's just a coincidence, but maybe having a bigger train with more space acts as an incentive to get people to travel. Also, the better complementry first class offerings are a big pull factor too. Looking for my seat I noticed a few good lots of reservations for between Inverness and Edinburgh in coach M.

Although this is just a matter of personal opinion

 

[cf111]

Are there any through coach services? That, as it's quite a lot easier to arrange, might give a reasonable guide?

No there aren't, all change at Inverness on the bus.

 

[backontrack]

Closure of Scotscalder and Georgemas with a new station at Halkirk replacing both and a new curve for Thurso has been proposed fairly seriously in the past.

Beyond those 2 nothing apart from the abortive Transport Scotland Rail 2020 consultation a few years back that wound up Glasgow politicians and was entirely counterproductive.

I'd like to see stations with no traffic, no tourist potential and no passing loop infrastructure removed.

Breich, Springfield, Barry Links, Golf Street, Beasdale, Culrain, Kildonan, Scotscalder, Lochluichart, Duirinish contribute nothing to the network and slow services down.

Get rid of them says I!

I don't think Duirinish would be worth removing; of those it sees the most traffic and isn't worth the hassle of closing. Keep Duirinish. I don't see there being much point in having Achanalt, however. Culrain is dependant on the Carbisdale Castle youth hostel, which might well reopen.

Of course nobody's mentioned closing Altnabreac...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A direct HST up the Far North, the major stations for passengers would be Wick, Thurso, I'm fairly certain you'd stop at Helmsdale, Brora, Golspie, Lairg and Ardgay, and Halkirk may yet reopen, Tain, perhaps Fearn to serve the Seaboard Villages and Portmahomack (?), Invergordon, Alness, Evanton may yet reopen too, Dingwall, Conon Bridge, Muir of Ord, Beauly, Inverness, Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry, Perth, Haymarket

^^^^^

 

[Clansman]

^^^^^

I'm on about the stations which would see more passengers on average than other calls, not the calls itself. For example Stirling would be the major station for passengers as opposed to Dunkeld. But just because the major station is Stirling, doesn't mean Dunkeld wouldn't be worth a call. Same case when I was stating the major stations for passengers. I would love to list all the possible calls but the number of stations on that line, I'd be as well cut my fingers off. Probably just the stations without requests and run semi-fast from Inverness to Perth and non stop from Perth to Haymarket?

 

[backontrack]

I'm on about the stations which would see more passengers on average than other calls, not the calls itself. For example Stirling would be the major station for passengers as opposed to Dunkeld. But just because the major station is Stirling, doesn't mean Dunkeld wouldn't be worth a call. Same case when I was stating the major stations for passengers. I would love to list all the possible calls but the number of stations on that line, I'd be as well cut my fingers off. Probably just the stations without requests and run semi-fast from Inverness to Perth and non stop from Perth to Haymarket?

Ah, I see now. I agree; after Inverness, I'd call at Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry, Dunkeld and Perth. Perhaps even Blair Atholl too.