Havant to Hastings via Edenbridge?

[Lockwood]

I have had to go to Hastings today for work and my ticket is valid "via Polegate or Edenbridge". I get that that is to stop me going via London (Why not via Not London?)

I'm trying to work out how a route back via Edenbridge would work.

I was meant to be at a meeting in Haslemere this evening which I opted out of due to the trip to Hastings.
Looking at the map on the station it looks like you could get back via Edenbridge by going to Tonbridge, Redhill, Guildford.

Before I try doing that, which seems to fit the wording of the route, I'm not sure if it meets the spirit of the route?

So, I suppose the two questions are: Can I do that journey? What is the intended route for Hastings to Havant via Edenbridge?


Edit: asked at Hastings ticket office. Route via Guildford is valid. Awesome.

 

[Romilly]

So far as I can see, Edenbridge is not on any permitted route between Havant and Hastings: I cannot believe that via Edenbridge is the shortest route, and the only mapped routes given by the Routeing Guide are those that can be traced on Map CW.

Therefore, as discussed at point 3.6 of this Forums Fares & Ticketing Guide, you look for permitted routes for a Havant-Edenbridge ticket and permitted routes for an Edenbridge-Hastings ticket. For a Havant-Edenbridge ticket, the routeing points for Edenbridge are Redhill and Tonbridge. I am struggling to see a mapped route for Havant-Redhill-Edenbridge that includes the whole of the North Downs line between Guildford. On the other hand, Havant-Haslemere-Guildford-Wimbledon-Streatham-Croydon-Redhill-Edenbridge seems fine. So I guess I'm missing something here.

 

[Lockwood]

This is where I got the idea that there was a valid route via Edenbridge.

The person at the ticket office said it was provided as a route to allow for engineering works on services to/from Brighton and is not Not London to prevent travel via Clapham Junction

 

[JB_B]

So far as I can see, Edenbridge is not on any permitted route between Havant and Hastings: I cannot believe that via Edenbridge is the shortest route, and the only mapped routes given by the Routeing Guide are those that can be traced on Map CW.

Therefore, as discussed at point 3.6 of this Forums Fares & Ticketing Guide, you look for permitted routes for a Havant-Edenbridge ticket and permitted routes for an Edenbridge-Hastings ticket. For a Havant-Edenbridge ticket, the routeing points for Edenbridge are Redhill and Tonbridge. I am struggling to see a mapped route for Havant-Redhill-Edenbridge that includes the whole of the North Downs line between Guildford. On the other hand, Havant-Haslemere-Guildford-Wimbledon-Streatham-Croydon-Redhill-Edenbridge seems fine. So I guess I'm missing something here.

I agree - it relies on the split-routeing and there's no mapped route for Havant to Edenbridge that covers the whole Guildford to Redhill North Downs line section.

However, I'm fairly sure that section is on the shortest route (for the HAV->EBR leg) and so it's permitted that way.

 

[Lockwood]

Also, I'm a bit concerned now. The man at Hastings assured me that whilst a long way round the ticket would be valid changing at Tonbridge, Redhill and Guildford.

I only saw the concerns here with reference to the routing guide that this information appears to be incorrect once I had commenced the North Downs leg of the journey. "The man at the station said..." is not a good position if I get challenged.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Also, I'm a bit concerned now. The man at Hastings assured me that whilst a long way round the ticket would be valid changing at Tonbridge, Redhill and Guildford.

I only saw the concerns here with reference to the routing guide that this information appears to be incorrect once I had commenced the North Downs leg of the journey. "The man at the station said..." is not a good position if I get challenged.

Hastings <-> Havant 'via Edenb/Poleg' is indeed valid via Tonbridge, Redhill and Guildford.

 

[Romilly]

I agree - it relies on the split-routeing and there's no mapped route for Havant to Edenbridge that covers the whole Guildford to Redhill North Downs line section.

However, I'm fairly sure that section is on the shortest route (for the HAV->EBR leg) and so it's permitted that way.

I think that you must be right about Havant-Haslemere-Guildford-Edenbridge being the shortest route for the Havant-Edenbridge leg and therefore a permitted route for that half of the leg. Apologies for not spotting that first time around. And by way of comfort, it is just about possible to get journey planners to produce itineraries via Tonbridge-Edenbridge-Redhill-Guildford-Haslemere-Havant for the via Polegate/Edenbridge ticket, although they struggle to come up with many journey options for that route (new.trainsplit.com seems to come up with the best results).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think that you must be right about Havant-Haslemere-Guildford-Edenbridge being the shortest route for the Havant-Edenbridge leg and therefore a permitted route for that half of the leg. Apologies for not spotting that first time around. And by way of comfort, it is just about possible to get journey planners to produce itineraries via Tonbridge-Edenbridge-Redhill-Guildford-Haslemere-Havant for the via Polegate/Edenbridge ticket, although they struggle to come up with many journey options for that route (new.trainsplit.com seems to come up with the best results).

I don't think 'shortest route' or direct train comes into it - these only apply when no route or TOC is specified on the ticket and, as 'Via Edenb/Poleg' is evidently a specific route, the Routeing Guide must be used to determine validity. Any route allowed by the Routeing Guide from Havant to Edenbridge or Polegate, and any route allowed from Edenbridge or Polegate on to Hastings (as appropriate - you can't mix and match!) would be permitted, even if it is not the shortest route.

 

[yorkie]

I'm trying to work out how a route back via Edenbridge would work.

I was meant to be at a meeting in Haslemere this evening which I opted out of due to the trip to Hastings.
Looking at the map on the station it looks like you could get back via Edenbridge by going to Tonbridge, Redhill, Guildford.

You want to know if Hastings to Havant is valid via Tonbridge, Redhill, Guildford on a ticket routed Edenb/Poleg?

Yes it is.

This route follows the shortest route from Hastings to Edenbridge and the shortest route from Edenbridge to Havant.

 

[JB_B]

I don't think 'shortest route' or direc1t train comes into it - these only apply when no route or TOC is specified on the ticket...

I don't think that's correct. Do you have a reference?

Just to recap my thinking ( could be wrong of course.)

(1) Havant to Hastings is mapped on CW only (along the coast via Polegate),

(2) The OP holds a ticket routed: Polegate (or) Edenbridge so they can split the route at Edenbridge and travel on permitted routes from Havant to Edenbridge and then permitted routes from Edenbridge to Hastings.

(3) There is no mapped route from Havant to Edenbridge which covers the OPs intended leg Guildford to Redhill direct via the North Downs line.

(4) The shortest route from Havant to Edenbridge is Havant (Portsmouth Direct) Guildford (North Downs) Redhill - Edenbridge. So it's because that's the shortest route that it's vaiid. ( The EBR->HGS leg is obviously OK - both shortest route and mapped.)

 

[John @ home]

my ticket is valid "via Polegate or Edenbridge". I get that that is to stop me going via London (Why not via Not London?)

A ticket routed Not Via London is likely to be accepted via Clapham Jn. The routeing "via Polegate or Edenbridge" avoids this.

there's no mapped route for Havant to Edenbridge that covers the whole Guildford to Redhill North Downs line section.

However, I'm fairly sure that section is on the shortest route (for the HAV->EBR leg) and so it's permitted that way.

I agree that a Havant to Hastings via Edenbridge ticket is permitted by

• any permitted route from Havant to Edenbridge, followed by
• any permitted route from Edenbridge to Hastings.

According to the Network Rail timetable, Havant, Rowlands Castle, Petersfield, Liss, Liphook, Haslemere, Witley, Milford (Surrey), Godalming, Farncombe, Guildford, Shalford (Surrey), Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking West, Dorking (Deepdene), Betchworth, Reigate, Redhill, Nutfield, Godstone, Edenbridge is the shortest route by rail from Havant to Edenbridge (calculated using http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx).

I don't think 'shortest route' or direct train comes into it - these only apply when no route or TOC is specified on the ticket and, as 'Via Edenb/Poleg' is evidently a specific route, the Routeing Guide must be used to determine validity.

My recollection is that we obtained clarification from ATOC (in the days before it was called RDG) that the method of calculating permitted routes for a journey from ORIGIN to DESTINATION via LOCATION where

• tickets are available from ORIGIN to DESTINATION route via LOCATION, and
• no permitted routes from ORIGIN to DESTINATION go via LOCATION

is to allow travel by

• any permitted route from ORIGIN to LOCATION, followed by
• any permitted route from LOCATION to DESTINATION.

If this is so, it seems to me that the shortest route from Havant to Edenbridge may indeed form part of a permitted route to Hastings when using a HAVANT - HASTINGS via EDENB/POLEG ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think 'shortest route' or direct train comes into it

When doing the split route check, you look at the permitted routes from origin to Edenbridge and then Edenbridge to destination. That is not just the mapped routes but that also includes the shortest route (it would be absurd not to).

I am not sure what you are saying but there is some sort of misunderstanding going on if you think that the shortest route rule does not apply to each segment.

 

[yorkie]

Just to recap my thinking ( could be wrong of course.)

(1) Havant to Hastings is mapped on CW only (along the coast via Polegate),

(2) The OP holds a ticket routed: Polegate (or) Edenbridge so they can split the route at Edenbridge and travel on permitted routes from Havant to Edenbridge and then permitted routes from Edenbridge to Hastings.

(3) There is no mapped route from Havant to Edenbridge which covers the OPs intended leg Guildford to Redhill direct via the North Downs line.

(4) The shortest route from Havant to Edenbridge is Havant (Portsmouth Direct) Guildford (North Downs) Redhill - Edenbridge. So it's because that's the shortest route that it's vaiid. ( The EBR->HGS leg is obviously OK - both shortest route and mapped.)

This is correct. All correctly programmed journey planners will validate this as a permitted route for this ticket.

 

[Lockwood]

Journey complete and no issues.

My question as to the sensibility of the route had some from it being such a longer route, and whether the spirit of the route was to get from Tonbridge to Redhill and then back on the Brighton/Horsham route and come back via the coast.

It did take significantly longer getting back going around the houses, and that is ignoring the time off the train at Haslemere, or not realising the cross-platform connection at Tonbridge was what I wanted and it being an hourly service...

I don't think that I would make a habit of going via Guildford!


Thanks for the input, and always interesting to see how complicated these things can be!

 

[yorkie]

Journey complete and no issues.

My question as to the sensibility of the route had some from it being such a longer route and whether the spirit of the route was to get from Tonbridge to Redhill and then back on the Brighton/Horsham route and come back via the coast.

You did the shortest route via Edenbridge.

Are you trying to argue for the removal of the Edenbridge routeing on this ticket?

It did take significantly longer getting back going around the houses, and that is ignoring the time off the train at Haslemere, or not realising the cross-platform connection at Tonbridge was what I wanted and it being an hourly service...

I don't think that I would make a habit of going via Guildford!

OK.

Thanks for the input, and always interesting to see how complicated these things can be!

No worries

 

[Lockwood]

I am not arguing for the removal of the route, just surprised that it exists. And surprised that Redhill to Havant via Guildford is shorter than via Horsham.

Im all up for variety of options and for quirks. And a journey that used South Eastern, Southern and South Western is quite nice in an almost poetic way

 

[MikeWh]

I believe that there is one routeing of via Edenbridge/Polegate and it applies to a large number of pairs of origin and destination. Some will be logical either way and those that aren't the TOC are happy for people to use if they really want.

 

[robbeech]

Of course if you use the Trainline you can get an itinerary that puts a walk from Edenbridge to Edenbridge Town and immediately back again in the middle of it for a bit of a leg stretch.

 

[Typhoon]

Of course if you use the Trainline you can get an itinerary that puts a walk from Edenbridge to Edenbridge Town and immediately back again in the middle of it for a bit of a leg stretch.

A chance to experience the delights of the Fircroft Way Industrial Estate, not to be missed!

 

[John @ home]

I am ... surprised that Redhill to Havant via Guildford is shorter than via Horsham.

There's not much of a difference. Using the figures in the Network Rail timetable, the route via Guildford is 57 miles, and via Horsham is 57.75 miles. Using the information in the Rail Journey Information System (RJIS), via Guildford is 56.61 miles and via Horsham is 57.89 miles.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A chance to experience the delights of the Fircroft Way Industrial Estate, not to be missed!

Still better than the 'day out to Crewe' advertised at some VTWC stations... Not much good unless you're a trainspotter.

 

[BluePenguin]

I agree with what has been said above, the route is valid. However there is equally nothing wrong with using a route served by Southern. A lot of cheap tickets between destinations in the South East come with strange route restrictions intending to prevent x whilst doing y is also permitted.

Journey planners never provide itenaries via London (even if technically allowed) for these fares and always advises changing at Ashford/Tonbridge and travelling via Redhil or a specific station in Sussex. The planners should show all the permitted routes rather than the ones they prefer you to use. I have never had a SWR service suggested past Winchester or Portsmouth personally, let alone Guildford or Haslemere. Maybe it is just me.

All of this said, these fares are still very attractive compared to Southeasterns extortinate fares in comparision e.g. to Gatwick.