Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[py_megapixel]

Just created a new thread to discuss this as I think it's quite interesting.

I rather worry about people calling for free everything for electric cars, free car tax = no Government income, free car parking = nobody is going to build or run car parks, you get nothing for nothing in this world

Indeed. Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.
They solve point-of-use emissions, and reduce carbon footprint by means of whatever proportion of the national grid's generation comes from renewables, but they are still inefficient in terms of space and still use resources to produce, especially the batteries which are probably worse than petrol engines. They also still cause a lot of noise and road building/maintainence is still disruptive. And they're still expensive, more so than petrol cars.

Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.

 

[AM9]

... And they're still expensive, more so than petrol cars. ...

I can see where you are coming from in this post but not with the statement above, - unless you are saying that the initial purchase price is the only cost of EVs. Except for the most unsuitable of use profiles, the cost of ownership of an EV is most likely to be less than that of an IC vehicle without considering the almost inevitable stick that will be in legislation intended to quickly clear polluting vehicles from the roads once all new cars are non-IC. I'm not assuming that future motoring usage will be exactly the same as now because the road charging structure that replaces fuel duty will by it's introduction modify motorists behaviour.

 

[XAM2175]

Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.

Car manufacturers have a vested interest in portraying electric cars as perfect in every way since they exist to make and sell the things, do they not?

Your overall point that they are an improvement rather than a solution is sound though.

 

[edwin_m]

I can see where you are coming from in this post but not with the statement above, - unless you are saying that the initial purchase price is the only cost of EVs. Except for the most unsuitable of use profiles, the cost of ownership of an EV is most likely to be less than that of an IC vehicle...

And therein lies a problem. We already see with IC vehicles that once the fixed costs are paid the marginal costs of using one for an extra journey is often a lot less than the public transport fare for the same journey. With EVs the running costs are less so this gets worse, possibly compounded by the high purchase cost making people think they've paid for it so they really ought to use it.

We really need a road pricing system to ensure that EVs pay their share to maintaining the road network and the externalities they still cause (noise, accidents, tyre particulates) but there will no doubt be an outcry from the usual suspects when the government starts taxing something they've been pushing everyone to buy (see also diesels). But there was a long thread recently on road user charging.

 

[py_megapixel]

I can see where you are coming from in this post but not with the statement above, - unless you are saying that the initial purchase price is the only cost of EVs. Except for the most unsuitable of use profiles, the cost of ownership of an EV is most likely to be less than that of an IC vehicle without considering the almost inevitable stick that will be in legislation intended to quickly clear polluting vehicles from the roads once all new cars are non-IC.

That's very true - however, many drivers who do not have the luxury of spending significant amounts of money on a car will have to look at the initial purchase price. Though if they are buying on some kind of credit or payment plan - which I suspect most are - then the slightly higher monthly payments in return for lower cost of ownership might be something they can manage.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.

Is this true? I haven’t seen any evidence of it.

I have seen that EVs are promoted as a way of contributing to reducing local pollution and carbon emissions, which they do. But I don’t think anyone is claiming they will solve transport issues.

On the basis that, like it or not, the car is going to continue to be a very popular mode of transport, I think it is right that EVs are promoted as a ways of reducing emissions and pollution. Which they do.

 

[AM9]

And therein lies a problem. We already see with IC vehicles that once the fixed costs are paid the marginal costs of using one for an extra journey is often a lot less than the public transport fare for the same journey. With EVs the running costs are less so this gets worse, possibly compounded by the high purchase cost making people think they've paid for it so they really ought to use it.

We really need a road pricing system to ensure that EVs pay their share to maintaining the road network and the externalities they still cause (noise, accidents, tyre particulates) but there will no doubt be an outcry from the usual suspects when the government starts taxing something they've been pushing everyone to buy (see also diesels). But there was a long thread recently on road user charging.

But as was noted in the other thread many times, paying incrementally for journeys should act as a strong filter that makes drivers constantly aware of motoring expenditure, hopefully reducing their appetite for trivial car journeys. Some of the more strenuous objections to per journey pricing may indeed be from those fearing changes in that direction.

 

[Starmill]

The whole life cost of an EV is already lower than that of a comparable petrol or diesel vehicle. This is a further threat to the railway industry, as it happens, because it will better compete with train services on price. Air pollution is also not a significant concern for electric cars, and they can go anywhere. Unlike electric trains. Soon that will really be a problem.

 

[biko]

I don't think car manufacturers really oversell EVs, but the bigger problem is governments who think EVs will solve all sustainability problems of transport. They will do it to a large extent, but they still take a lot of space in cities and towns, will make noise (albeit less than other cars) and emit particulates from the tyres. The priority list to create a sustainable transport system is the following:
1. Reduce the need to travel (e.g. work from home)
2. Promote and improve provision of really sustainable modes as alternative to cars and planes (thus public transport, cycling and walking)
3. Improve the sustainability of a mode (electric cars, biofuel in planes)

A really good book about this topic is "Moving towards low carbon mobility" by Givoni and Banister, who also propose the above order. Basically, they say that public transport should be the main mode for longer trips in and between urban areas, cycling and walking the main mode within urban areas and EVs the main mode in rural areas. So EVs really are a part of the solution but not the full solution.

 

[AndrewE]

I don't think car manufacturers really oversell EVs, but the bigger problem is governments who think EVs will solve all sustainability problems of transport. They will do it to a large extent, but they still take a lot of space in cities and towns, will make noise (albeit less than other cars) and emit particulates from the tyres.

My fear is that they don't make much noise, apart from tyre noise. In towns all sorts of pedestrians - and cyclists - need the auditory cues about what is approaching them and how fast. I think EV's should have the electronic equivalent of the cardboard-pegged-to-the-bike frame to make the motorbike noise of my childhood.

 

[edwin_m]

But as was noted in the other thread many times, paying incrementally for journeys should act as a strong filter that makes drivers constantly aware of motoring expenditure, hopefully reducing their appetite for trivial car journeys. Some of the more strenuous objections to per journey pricing may indeed be from those fearing changes in that direction.

I absolutely agree that's what should be happening. But it's not what is happening.

Another approach is to treat EVs as shared mobility, so that users pay per mile or per hour. This fee will be more than the incremental costs the vehicle accrues by making that journey, to repay a portion of the capital and make a profit for the operator if commercial. But for users it is much less than the cost of owning their own vehicle, and gets round the high capital cost of an EV. It also means fewer EVs are needed, reducing the embodied carbon and use of rare materials for batteries.

Car clubs do this now, and autonomous driving would help because the vehicle could be summoned to wherever it was needed rather than the user having to go and fetch it. However, particularly if EV prices fall to be similar to IC vehicles, I suspect the convenience of the buy-and-drive model will still win out.

 

[Snow1964]

I think the bigger problem will be trying to get people out of electric cars. If they have chosen it to avoid pollution then an electric car owner isn’t likely to be enthusiastic at using a diesel bus, a diesel train, or a non electric rail replacement bus.

 

[EssexGonzo]

As ever, nuance is lost in any argument about EVs vs ICE cars.

Yes, EVs are great for some, many journey patterns and types. But not all. Charging infrastructure still falls woefully short for longer journeys, destination charging, on street charging and journeys where there is no certainty of charging. Yet they are touted as the only ethical choice in town. Rubbish.

A friend of mine has just acquired a £75k electric Audi. He cannot get to Devon on one charge, nor can he be sure that there will be either spiace or a working charge on the motorway. He thought he was buying 250+ miles of range but in reality it’s around 170 on a long journey, more in town. For which a 2.6 tonne SUV is not necessarily the answer. He thinks he has been sold a pup.

This might be solved in 5 or 10 years time. Let me know when EVs have achieved parity with ICEs in terms of usability. In the meantime, I won’t be guilted into buying a partially resolved product instead of an ICE car next time.

Of course, Tesla is way ahead of the others here.

 

[stj]

I wonder if governments will ensure EVs are never cheap hence fewer cars on the road in future.Something they have been after for years.

 

[Harpers Tate]

@EssexGonzo Whilst the facts of your statement may be true, in reality all it takes to get along with an EV (yes, even on a long trip - and I speak as someone who has had a ~130 mile car for 2 years, followed by a ~180 mile car for 18 months - and wouldn't ever go back) is altered thinking about how to plan trips. You can get from Essex (?) to Devon in an EV. Yes, it may take a little longer. But offset against that - as long as such trips are in a minority for whoever it is, and not a daily commute - there are both time and cost savings elsewhere, if you care to use them. The charging infrastructure is improving pretty much daily; at the moment I find it is quite sufficient. As EV take-up increases, then as long as the infrastructure keeps pace, it's all good. There are reliable networks and poorer ones; on pretty much any trip there are many choices of where to stop; one is rarely if ever limited to a single site. But the altered thinking I propose includes considering contingency when needing a top-up; not leaving it until the last possible place as the car is just about empty; rather, stopping sooner where there are alternatives - for example. It's not hard; just different. There are several websites and SmartPhone apps that can be used to plan EV trips.

Back to the original point here: the issue is that practically every government we have had, of any flavour, since probably the late 50s has seen individual car ownership (and thereby use) as a good thing. So much so that any alternatives that may have existed have been systematically moved into a position, for many, of last resort, or, worse, not at all. We are where we are after maybe 60 years of heading in broadly the same direction. It's unrealistic, I think, to hope that the situation will be reversed, if at all, in any less of a timescale.

Hypothetically (and, I firmly believe it WOULD take such extreme measures to turn this back) if we began right now by, say, at least halving all public transport fares; by allowing a "car full" to travel together for the price of one; and by managing a comprehensive integrated transport system so as to provide a high proportion of peoples' trips with a plausible alternative to driving (so, yes, a huge amount of public cost), alongside significant increases in the immediate cost of driving onesself (applied by whatever means) then maybe, just maybe, in 20 years we may begin to see meaningful shift away from car "dependency".

Unless and until that happens, I'd suggest that at the very least, the reduction in local pollution that EVs give is worthwhile. We could debate ad nauseam the lifetime global effects of extracting, refining, shipping and burning fossil fuel in cars or the parallel impacts of building and charging EVs, but regardless of the balance there, at the very least, the air quality in city hotspots must surely be of benefit.

 

[ABB125]

My dad's about to (in a couple of weeks I think) take delivery of a new Skoda Superb estate hybrid, to replace his 2012 Skoda Superb diesel estate (what an ambitious move! ). There are various reasons for this, including (most importantly ) enormous company tax benefits, reduced running costs most of the time, and getting something new (the old car has ~140k miles).
Day-to-day use is the 8 mile journey from home to work (about 15 minutes by car, over an hour by two buses with a 10-minute walk at one end, 5 minutes at the other), so most of the time it'll be running on electric. When he needs to go on a long trip, that's where the engine comes in; it won't be as efficient as his current car, but that should be more than offset by the electric running.

 

[ac6000cw]

I'd suggest that at the very least, the reduction in local pollution that EVs give is worthwhile.

Yes, very much so.

I don't own an EV at present, but I'm sure my next car will be one (I currently drive a modern small car with a 3-cylinder turbo petrol engine - easily the most fuel efficient and nicest-to-drive car I've ever owned).

I'm generally pragmatic about transport choices, depending on destination, time of day, weather, cost and what I might be doing at the end of it. So I'll use feet, bus, train, plane or car as appropriate and available. My wife does much the same, as does my work colleague, and I suspect a fair number of other people do as well depending on their circumstances.

If I lived in a big city with decent public transport (as I have done in the distant past) I'd probably not own a car, just hire one when I needed it. But I live on the edge of the countryside, with the nearest railway station 4 miles away (complete with expensive parking, assuming it's not full anyway) and which the bus alternative takes 25-30 minutes to get to. So if I'm heading out of town it's much more efficient to drive as 30 minutes driving will get me to most reasonably nearby places anyway (and without the potential hassles and time loss of a modal change en-route).

 

[Bald Rick]

A friend of mine has just acquired a £75k electric Audi. He cannot get to Devon on one charge, nor can he be sure that there will be either spiace or a working charge on the motorway. He thought he was buying 250+ miles of range but in reality it’s around 170 on a long journey, more in town. For which a 2.6 tonne SUV is not necessarily the answer. He thinks he has been sold a pup.

Interesting. A friend of mine acquired a £75k Electric Audi early last year. He has been up to Skye in it twice, without any issues. He’s going again in a few weeks (when Nicola allows him to). He gets over 200miles range on the Motorway, 3 hours driving, hour in the service station to get a near full charge, and then on. All part of the fun. He loves it, and has bought his wife £60k worth of electric Jaguar as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. A friend of mine acquired a £75k Electric Audi early last year. He has been up to Skye in it twice, without any issues. He’s going again in a few weeks (when Nicola allows him to). He gets over 200miles range on the Motorway, 3 hours driving, hour in the service station to get a near full charge, and then on. All part of the fun. He loves it, and has bought his wife £60k worth of electric Jaguar as well.

I think the premium options are good in most cases, to be honest - and should anyone really be driving from London to Devon in one go rather than stopping for a decent break in which you can charge?

The problem comes when you get to those of us who see £75K and think "I want to buy a car, not a house*". My last car purchase (a 3 year old Ford Kuga, which all in all is a pretty decent car and in very good condition) was £13K ish. It'll be a long time before electrics get down into that price range, and by then they may well not have the same "cheap to run" credential as road pricing is likely to have kicked in by then as the Government is hardly going to let all that tax revenue go.

It looks to me like the Kia e-Niro is basically the same sort of car if a little smaller, and having just searched Autotrader they don't yet go much under £30K. And that's with Kias generally being a little cheaper than Fords.

* OK, not many places you can get a house for that now, but you could certainly get a 50% share of one in much of the North for that, now-rather-pricey Manchester excepted, so the point does still stand

 

[ABB125]

I think the premium options are good in most cases, to be honest - and should anyone really be driving from London to Devon in one go rather than stopping for a decent break in which you can charge?

The problem comes when you get to those of us who see £75K and think "I want to buy a car, not a house*". My last car purchase (a 3 year old Ford Kuga, which all in all is a pretty decent car and in very good condition) was £13K ish. It'll be a long time before electrics get down into that price range, and by then they may well not have the same "cheap to run" credential as road pricing is likely to have kicked in by then as the Government is hardly going to let all that tax revenue go.

It looks to me like the Kia e-Niro is basically the same sort of car if a little smaller, and having just searched Autotrader they don't yet go much under £30K. And that's with Kias generally being a little cheaper than Fords.

* OK, not many places you can get a house for that now, but you could certainly get a 50% share of one in much of the North for that, now-rather-pricey Manchester excepted, so the point does still stand

Another factor is that cars with a value of over (I think) £40k have to pay extra tax (and I think this includes electric/hybrid cars), which also limits the range of electric cars available to those who don't want a large annual tax bill.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem comes when you get to those of us who see £75K and think "I want to buy a car, not a house*". My last car purchase (a 3 year old Ford Kuga, which all in all is a pretty decent car and in very good condition) was £13K ish. It'll be a long time before electrics get down into that price range, and by then they may well not have the same "cheap to run" credential as road pricing is likely to have kicked in by then as the Government is hardly going to let all that tax revenue go.

You can pick up a 3 year old Nissan Leaf with a c150 mile range (168 WLTP) at that price point. Not everyone’s cup of tea, and a bit short on range in my opinion, but it does show possibilities.

My next family car will be an electric SUV, probably an ID 4 or my mates Audi, seeing as he’s had most of the depreciation

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can pick up a 3 year old Nissan Leaf with a c150 mile range (168 WLTP) at that price point. Not everyone’s cup of tea, and a bit short on range in my opinion, but it does show possibilities.

A Nissan Leaf isn't a Ford Kuga, though, it's more like a Focus. A compact family car is not suitable for my needs. The Kuga is a medium sized (UK) / small (US) SUV, or put differently a vertically stretched Focus estate with a slightly SUV-like bodykit

If you are in the Astra/Focus hatchback sort of market, though, the Leaf does look decent. (I'd concede to an estate of that sort of car, that said, just not a hatch).

My next family car will be an electric SUV, probably an ID 4 or my mates Audi, seeing as he’s had most of the depreciation

 

[Bald Rick]

A Nissan Leaf isn't a Ford Kuga, though

Oh absolutely, but I didn’t want the readership to think that it wasn’t possible to buy a relatively new EV for £13k.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh absolutely, but I didn’t want the readership to think that it wasn’t possible to buy a relatively new EV for £13k.

Having had a nose at the general price range of Leafs on Autotrader, it does seem that they are following a similar depreciation profile to ICE cars of a similar type, so that does bode fairly well for me considering e.g. the e-Niro in a couple more years' time. I do ideally want my next car (likely in 2023 or thereabouts) to be electric but I don't want (in real terms) to spend more than I did this time (so by then probably about £15K).

 

[AM9]

I think the bigger problem will be trying to get people out of electric cars. If they have chosen it to avoid pollution then an electric car owner isn’t likely to be enthusiastic at using a diesel bus, a diesel train, or a non electric rail replacement bus.

Which is the other side of the decarbonisation equation. There is an imperative for public transport to not be seen as the 'dirty' transport mode. The recent flurry of diesel-only multiple unit purchases sanctioned by the DfT demonstrates that they still don't realise the long-lasting damage caused by their 'cheapest at all costs' policies. They should be keeping a firm hand on environmental matters.

... In the meantime, I won’t be guilted into buying a partially resolved product instead of an ICE car next time. ...

Once no more IC-only cars are sold (and moreso once hybrids are generally not sold) successive governments will start escalating the financial penalties of CO2 and pollutant creation in vehicles to drive (pun partially intended) the few IC vehicle drivers off the road. The current government's paralysis in dealing with road vehicle polluting is already coming under increasing scrutiny (e.g. the fuel duty escalator), and the assumption that action will cost them votes might be diametrically opposed to what actually happens as the majority of the electorate might pressure the legislators for not doing enough.

 

[skyhigh]

Electric car prices are falling all the time. I've recently seen a Corsa-e advertised for £21k. That's not far off what you'd pay for a new petrol Corsa.

I have an electric car with a rated range of 250miles (and in the summer I achieve that). I live and work in such locations that public transport isn't an option all the time, but I do get the train into work when possible. I realise that electric cars aren't perfect, but for my circumstances it's a pretty good match for me. I got my car on a good deal PCP with low initial deposit. Fuel costs are dramatically less than my previous car, insurance is cheaper too. So basically, for me, it works out that I'm paying approx. £10 a month more than I was to run a 6 year old petrol car.

Whenever we go on a long drive, we always stop off in towns along the way to explore, and that fits perfectly with stopping to charge. At home, a full charge on my off-peak tariff costs about £2.50. I also find the car more pleasant to drive. New electric cars have a sound generator that you can't turn off either.

I wouldn't go back to petrol.

(P.S. - I don't get free charging or parking)

 

[DelW]

My fear is that they don't make much noise, apart from tyre noise. In towns all sorts of pedestrians - and cyclists - need the auditory cues about what is approaching them and how fast. I think EV's should have the electronic equivalent of the cardboard-pegged-to-the-bike frame to make the motorbike noise of my childhood.

My car has that, though slightly surprisingly it was an £80 option rather than standard fit (the car was ordered in January 2020). I decided it was worth it rather than always wondering if someone was about to walk in front of me in supermarket car parks. It operates at up to 30mph, above which I guess there would be enough tyre and wind noise anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My car has that, though slightly surprisingly it was an £80 option rather than standard fit (the car was ordered in January 2020). I decided it was worth it rather than always wondering if someone was about to walk in front of me in supermarket car parks. It operates at up to 30mph, above which I guess there would be enough tyre and wind noise anyway.

I believe the EU has now mandated it on new vehicles (and I'm pretty sure it was before Brexit, so on the basis that all EU law was carried into UK law it is mandatory here too).

 

[JohnMcL7]

.Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.

While I can easily see there being good use cases for electric cars it does also frustrate me that they frequently do now seem to be taken to be the magic bullet for transport even though their advantage is in reducing pollution but they don't improve other problems cars cause particularly congestion. I was speaking to someone who was boasting about how green they were with their electric vehicle then at some point later were discussing one of the numerous yearly holidays abroad (pre-pandemic) involving long haul flights and seemed oblivious to that not being at all green.

I also get irritated at the belief that electric cars are better in every scenario and I get 'shamed' for not considering or wanting one at the moment. I have been looking for a newer car (on hold due to the pandemic) and planning a three to four year old large high spec estate for 15 to 18K, most likely another Mazda 6. There's nothing remotely suitable that's electric with one just one electric estate in the form of the MG MG5 and it's not really an estate with poor load capacity and not even fold flat seats. After buying a DPF equipped diesel about ten years ago I took up cycling to avoid shorter trips and since then the pedal bikes handle the bulk of my transport needs, the bikes are much greener than any electric car, don't cause congestion, don't take up parking space and significantly improve my mental and physical health. It also means the car spends most of its time doing nothing so I'm never going to make the extra outlay on an electric car back even if a suitable one existed and it means I'm less inclined in general to spend money on cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tend to buy about 3 years old (usually slightly under so any niggles can be dealt with on the warranty before it expires, most of them being 3 years these days) and electrics weren't ready for me this time. I think they will be next time, though - the Kia e-Niro seems a possible candidate.

Other than premium brands, large estates seem to be dying off in favour of SUVs, though. Even the Mondy is about to be killed off...