Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Harpers Tate]

Available now. Yours for a touch over £30k new. ~200 miles range, but (some would say - not a factor for me) slow recharge times.

 

[Bald Rick]

Believe it or not I'm tentatively considering an EV for my next everyday car. My infrastructure anxiety (more so than range anxiety) needs to be quelled somewhat first, but I'm thinking about it. What really doesn't help however is the choice of vehicles available; they're nearly all SUV/crossover shaped which instantly puts me off. On that basis I'm left with the Tesla Model 3, and.... well that's it really! There is the upcoming BMW i4 which looks promising but there isn't much else. I really want to like the Ford Mustang Mach-E and apparently it's decent to drive for an EV, but I can't get past the crossover shape (how they can call it a Mustang is beyond me!). I may as well go for an Audi e-tron Estate and have a proper tank-like SUV. Hopefully manufacturers follow Tesla and start producing sensibly sized saloons and hatchbacks that don't weigh over 2000kg and don't have the aerodynamics of a Class 66! It may even help them drive better and go further (that Audi's range is abysmal, presumably due to it's weight).

I'll be keeping a close eye on the infrastructure rollout over the next six months, as well as any new offerings from car manufacturers....

VW ID3 is a Golf sized hatchback, and cheaper than a Tesla 3...

Or there’s the Mini electric, or Corsa-e, etc.

 

[Domh245]

Or this, starting from £25k, similar range to the Hyundai, and almost-estate like (too long to be crossover IMO. Not sure about charge times though, and you'll also have to overlook the exploitation/savaging of a classic brand

On the subject of weight, it's in no small part an inherent issue with BEVs - if you want a large range, you need a big battery, but the bigger the battery the more energy you need to move it, requiring an even bigger battery, etc etc. Car makers are getting rather obsessive about the aerodynamics though, which is why you see things like the aero wheels, and the ducted 'funk' (froot?, boonet?) on the I pace, and enough soft lines to make you wonder if they've lost all the rulers in the design

FWIW, whilst the I Pace is notionally an SUV, it does look more like a large hatchback to my eye than much else. Equally if you're after a proper electric hatchback, the ID3, Nissan Leaf, and Renault ZOE could all be options. I'm not sure many manufacturers will go for mass market saloons - it feels like that bodystyle was already a dying breed before the advent of large blobby EVs

 

[DustyBin]

Available now. Yours for a touch over £30k new. ~200 miles range, but (some would say - not a factor for me) slow recharge times.

I'm really looking for a (claimed) range of 300+ miles and fast recharge times but thanks. Do you have one of those yourself? If so, how does the real world range compare with that claimed?

VW ID3 is a Golf sized hatchback, and cheaper than a Tesla 3...

Or there’s the Mini electric, or Corsa-e, etc.

It is but it seems to be a pretty boring proposition (just like a Golf, as the advert goes!). It does just about tick the range box to be fair, but it doesn't really appeal to me personally. Less so the Mini or Corsa which lack the necessary range in any case. There really aren't many options out there at the minute that meet my requirements, I keep coming back to the Tesla or the Mach-E if I can come to terms with the latter's crossovery-ness....

Or this, starting from £25k, similar range to the Hyundai, and almost-estate like (too long to be crossover IMO. Not sure about charge times though, and you'll also have to overlook the exploitation/savaging of a classic brand

On the subject of weight, it's in no small part an inherent issue with BEVs - if you want a large range, you need a big battery, but the bigger the battery the more energy you need to move it, requiring an even bigger battery, etc etc. Car makers are getting rather obsessive about the aerodynamics though, which is why you see things like the aero wheels, and the ducted 'funk' (froot?, boonet?) on the I pace, and enough soft lines to make you wonder if they've lost all the rulers in the design

FWIW, whilst the I Pace is notionally an SUV, it does look more like a large hatchback to my eye than much else. Equally if you're after a proper electric hatchback, the ID3, Nissan Leaf, and Renault ZOE could all be options. I'm not sure many manufacturers will go for mass market saloons - it feels like that bodystyle was already a dying breed before the advent of large blobby EVs

We'll discount the MG I think!

I hadn't thought about the I-PACE actually, again though it's similar to the Mach-E in that it's really a crossover. You're right regarding saloon cars going out of fashion in general, sadly. I imagine Audi and Merc will introduce a competitor to the upcoming BMW i4 though (and Tesla 3 which must be a thorn in their sides). It may be worth holding off the more I think about it and seeing what the next year brings, what I don't want to do is end up with something that I don't really like as I'm very fond of my current petrol burner!

 

[Harpers Tate]

I'm really looking for a (claimed) range of 300+ miles and fast recharge times but thanks. Do you have one of those yourself? If so, how does the real world range compare with that claimed?

Real world depends hugely on type of driving. But in my experience it's always (in 18 months) been between 170 and 210 depending. On that basis, I'd suggest that, unless you have a consistently extreme driving style (one way or the other) the WLTP figure is right in the middle of the real-world spread.

As to range: another way of looking at a realistic 180 mile range is - it's ~3hours at motorway average speeds. I'd argue one should be considering a break after this length of time, and even in my "slow" car, to add another 120 miles (thus, getting your 300), it barely takes the amount of time needed to walk from the car (charger) to some facilities (services, hotel, town centre), use them, and maybe have a cuppa. Range added per minutes is quicker the less charge the battery has; it slows down as it fills. Or - less "net" time than it takes to drive to some liquid fuel, fill, and drive to a parking space, plus using the same facilities.

 

[DustyBin]

Real world depends hugely on type of driving. But in my experience it's always (in 18 months) been between 170 and 210 depending. On that basis, I'd suggest that, unless you have a consistently extreme driving style (one way or the other) the WLTP figure is right in the middle of the real-world spread.

As to range: another way of looking at a realistic 180 mile range is - it's ~3hours at motorway average speeds. I'd argue one should be considering a break after this length of time, and even in my "slow" car, to add another 120 miles (thus, getting your 300), it barely takes the amount of time needed to walk from the car (charger) to some facilities (services, hotel, town centre), use them, and maybe have a cuppa. Range added per minutes is quicker the less charge the battery has; it slows down as it fills. Or - less "net" time than it takes to drive to some liquid fuel, fill, and drive to a parking space, plus using the same facilities.

Thanks for this. I mentioned it in my original post but it’s more infrastructure anxiety than range anxiety per say. For example, if I drive 150 miles to a meeting I’d need to know I can find a charger nearby so that I can then drive back. Unfortunately (and I’ve started taking notice of these things) I often find myself in places with no charging point. The other thing that concerns me is finding a charging point and leaving the car there for a few hours or even overnight; that seems rather selfish so I’d then need to think about moving the car which may impact on whatever plans I have. I’m not sure what the attitude is to this?

My current car isn’t exactly frugal and doesn’t have a particularly large petrol tank either; it certainly won’t do more than 300 miles on a single tank. I’m safe in the knowledge though that I’m never far from a filling station where I can fully replenish it within minutes, so this really is an infrastructure issue more than anything else.

I need to think about how enjoyable these cars are as well, it probably sounds silly to non-car people but my current everyday car genuinely adds to my quality of life. There will inevitably be a trade off when it comes to driving pleasure (I can’t stretch to a Taycan!) so I really need to test drive some of these cars to see what they’re like. The reviews I’ve read are managing my expectations in this regard!

 

[NLC1072]

Its clear to me a Tesla is the way to go, newest cars are coming out with 500 miles range, and there are a lot of charging points for them in 500 miles! I don't know of any journey I would do that would actually see me charge at a charging point. Plus I would never have to see a petrol station again, time saved! All you do is plug it in when you're done at the most convenient place (at home!) and forget about it until you need it later.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Thanks for this. I mentioned it in my original post but it’s more infrastructure anxiety than range anxiety per say. For example, if I drive 150 miles to a meeting I’d need to know I can find a charger nearby so that I can then drive back. Unfortunately (and I’ve started taking notice of these things) I often find myself in places with no charging point. The other thing that concerns me is finding a charging point and leaving the car there for a few hours or even overnight; that seems rather selfish so I’d then need to think about moving the car which may impact on whatever plans I have. I’m not sure what the attitude is to this?

My current car isn’t exactly frugal and doesn’t have a particularly large petrol tank either; it certainly won’t do more than 300 miles on a single tank. I’m safe in the knowledge though that I’m never far from a filling station where I can fully replenish it within minutes, so this really is an infrastructure issue more than anything else.

I need to think about how enjoyable these cars are as well, it probably sounds silly to non-car people but my current everyday car genuinely adds to my quality of life. There will inevitably be a trade off when it comes to driving pleasure (I can’t stretch to a Taycan!) so I really need to test drive some of these cars to see what they’re like. The reviews I’ve read are managing my expectations in this regard!

All I can offer to counter that is: I have driven electric (and nothing else) since 2017, with my first car (of two) having "only" a ~130 mile range, and it was never a real problem. Yes - there were logistics to consider on certain longer trips.

As to driving pleasure - we aren't all the same, of course. Some really enjoy the satisfaction of making a good job of wrestling with a gearstick and/or the "din" of an overstretched little motor or the roar of a huge V8 and all points in between. For me - and I say this as user of a car built for efficiency rather than performance (with a 0-60 time of just shy of 10 seconds, but with power usage averaging around 5 miles per kWh) there is huge pleasure of standing on the "loud" pedal and silently(ish) and effortlessly gliding up to speed. In cars designed around performance 0-60 in well under 5 seconds is fairly common.

Leaving the car occupying a charger overnight would only be necessary at a slow charger, which may take 6 hours or more to fill a big battery. And it's typically the case that where such outlets are offered, there are several. It is expected that a 7kW outlet will be occupied for possibly several hours. At a high power charger, your dwell time, depending on the car and charger, may well be less than an hour and many such outlets come with a penalty charge for 60+ or 90+ minute stays which then increments per hour, so you wouldn't want to do that.

Time penalty: yes, you will encounter these when charging mid-trip. But depending on your pattern (i.e. if such trips are less frequent than shorter journeys) you offset that with otherwise NEVER having to make a special trip to refuel once or twice a month. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Its clear to me a Tesla is the way to go, newest cars are coming out with 500 miles range, and there are a lot of charging points for them in 500 miles! I don't know of any journey I would do that would actually see me charge at a charging point. Plus I would never have to see a petrol station again, time saved! All you do is plug it in when you're done at the most convenient place (at home!) and forget about it until you need it later.

If you were to pin me against a wall right now and force me into an electric car to - importantly - suit my intended use case, Tesla would be the only game in town.

Not because they have the nicest designs, best quality or usability (not a major fan of screen or nothing) but because of range x charging infrastructure. If everyone else had access to a reliable, available when required and well priced charging infrastructure like Tesla’s, a range of 200 miles would not matter. But they don’t.

A week earlier this year with a colleague’s Audi e-tron which involved three journeys of over 200 miles and a total of 900 miles in a week was a nightmare. It should not have been but the few rapid chargers on my routes were mostly busy, unable to charge at the “rapid” speed promised to make a 45 minutes top-up a reality or were just not working. I also had to load 3 apps with card just to be able to access some. And I have a 7kw charger at home too. Not good enough. A 220 miles journey to Bolton (normally 4.25 hours with stops) turned into 6.5 hours.

Also, I find no guarantee of overnight destination charging very stressful.

The car was lovely but I cannot ignore the irony of using a heavy SUV with it’s bluff front end as the poster child for BEVs, although they do hide the batteries well. And, whilst we’re there, an £80k car with barely 200 miles real world range? Not for me. I know there are Konas and Leafs etc that can do far better than this.

Now if you could find me £32k for a Honda E as a second, local car, I’ll be biting your hand off.

IN the meantime, my next long distance car will be a diesel. The one after that…….we’ll see where the chargers are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I need to think about how enjoyable these cars are as well, it probably sounds silly to non-car people but my current everyday car genuinely adds to my quality of life. There will inevitably be a trade off when it comes to driving pleasure (I can’t stretch to a Taycan!) so I really need to test drive some of these cars to see what they’re like. The reviews I’ve read are managing my expectations in this regard!

If you enjoy rowing the gearbox then maybe not, but I got a lift in a Kia e-Niro at the weekend and it went like absolute stink when he put his foot down. And low down weight from batteries should mean good handling!

With mention of the Chinese MGs upthread I think they are cheap for a reason - they look pretty rubbish on the reviews.

 

[DustyBin]

All I can offer to counter that is: I have driven electric (and nothing else) since 2017, with my first car (of two) having "only" a ~130 mile range, and it was never a real problem. Yes - there were logistics to consider on certain longer trips.

As to driving pleasure - we aren't all the same, of course. Some really enjoy the satisfaction of making a good job of wrestling with a gearstick and/or the "din" of an overstretched little motor or the roar of a huge V8 and all points in between. For me - and I say this as user of a car built for efficiency rather than performance (with a 0-60 time of just shy of 10 seconds, but with power usage averaging around 5 miles per kWh) there is huge pleasure of standing on the "loud" pedal and silently(ish) and effortlessly gliding up to speed. In cars designed around performance 0-60 in well under 5 seconds is fairly common.

Leaving the car occupying a charger overnight would only be necessary at a slow charger, which may take 6 hours or more to fill a big battery. And it's typically the case that where such outlets are offered, there are several. It is expected that a 7kW outlet will be occupied for possibly several hours. At a high power charger, your dwell time, depending on the car and charger, may well be less than an hour and many such outlets come with a penalty charge for 60+ or 90+ minute stays which then increments per hour, so you wouldn't want to do that.

Time penalty: yes, you will encounter these when charging mid-trip. But depending on your pattern (i.e. if such trips are less frequent than shorter journeys) you offset that with otherwise NEVER having to make a special trip to refuel once or twice a month. Swings and roundabouts.

Thanks again, that’s useful to know regarding charging penalties etc. as I’ve never really looked into it until now. I’m not sure “silently gliding” is my thing but there’s no arguing with the straight line performance of the quicker Model 3 or Mach-E variants; they’re fast! Poor handling (relative to a well set up IC engined car) and lack of feedback seems to be their main problem, I expect due to weight or more specifically weight distribution. Tesla are at least trying to do the right thing by keeping it all as low down as possible, hopefully as more traditional car-shaped vehicles hit the market others will follow suit.

If you were to pin me against a wall right now and force me into an electric car to - importantly - suit my intended use case, Tesla would be the only game in town.

Not because they have the nicest designs, best quality or usability (not a major fan of screen or nothing) but because of range x charging infrastructure. If everyone else had access to a reliable, available when required and well priced charging infrastructure like Tesla’s, a range of 200 miles would not matter. But they don’t.

A week earlier this year with a colleague’s Audi e-tron which involved three journeys of over 200 miles and a total of 900 miles in a week was a nightmare. It should not have been but the few rapid chargers on my routes were mostly busy, unable to charge at the “rapid” speed promised to make a 45 minutes top-up a reality or were just not working. I also had to load 3 apps with card just to be able to access some. And I have a 7kw charger at home too. Not good enough. A 220 miles journey to Bolton (normally 4.25 hours with stops) turned into 6.5 hours.

Also, I find no guarantee of overnight destination charging very stressful.

The car was lovely but I cannot ignore the irony of using a heavy SUV with it’s bluff front end as the poster child for BEVs, although they do hide the batteries well. And, whilst we’re there, an £80k car with barely 200 miles real world range? Not for me. I know there are Konas and Leafs etc that can do far better than this.

Now if you could find me £32k for a Honda E as a second, local car, I’ll be biting your hand off.

IN the meantime, my next long distance car will be a diesel. The one after that…….we’ll see where the chargers are.

I’m struggling to look past the Tesla 3 to be honest with the Mach-E in second place. It’s funny you should mention the e-tron, there are several models in the family but the one I looked at was the e-tron Estate which is the large Q7 sized one. The real world range is reportedly around 150 miles which is unacceptable for such an expensive car in my opinion and I can only put it down the shape and weight of the thing. The only reason I considered it was I thought it would be useful for the B&Q run!

 

[ashkeba]

The problem with cordon tolls is that those who live inside them can drive with impunity, whereas those may be the best placed people to use public transport or cycle instead. MK is a good example of that situation, at least pre-EWR.

so why has MK not worked? The buses seem to meander slowly through estates instead of using the grid road "mini bus stations" originally envisaged and the cycle ways have been left to rot into awful states almost needing an MTB with suspension.

 

[DustyBin]

If you enjoy rowing the gearbox then maybe not, but I got a lift in a Kia e-Niro at the weekend and it went like absolute stink when he put his foot down. And low down weight from batteries should mean good handling!

With mention of the Chinese MGs upthread I think they are cheap for a reason - they look pretty rubbish on the reviews.

I’ll be honest I do like a good manual gearbox. It’s not just that though, it’s the overall handling and feedback where EVs seem to struggle (I’ll not mention noise as it’s a pointless discussion!). My current car sets the bar fairly high which is part of the problem, a performance EV will match it (some will beat it) in a straight line but throw a corner into the equation and there’s no comparison. Hopefully in the next couple of years there will be proper hot-hatch type EVs that tick all of the boxes (except noise, obviously).

 

[Bletchleyite]

so why has MK not worked? The buses seem to meander slowly through estates instead of using the grid road "mini bus stations" originally envisaged

That's because people can't/won't walk to them. Though most do actually run on grid roads - it's the newer, larger estates (it's not a perfect grid, it's skewed because the WCML and M1 are not parallel) where the walk would be over 500m that they run through.

and the cycle ways have been left to rot into awful states almost needing an MTB with suspension.

This isn't true. Lots has been spent on them in recent years and they are mostly now in good condition and are well-used. It was true in the early 2000s, though. The reason for that problem was funding - because they are neither roads nor footpaths they weren't considered in the block grant (don't forget that most Council funding doesn't come from Council Tax). I believe that issue got solved but I know not how.

They are certainly not suitable for narrow-tyred road bikes, but they aren't designed for that. Practical city cyclists tend to ride sit-up hybrids (the Dutch know their stuff here, though an actual Dutch hub-geared bike isn't great, you want derailleurs for a wider range of gears for hilly MK), which are perfect for them (and e-bikes for the hills if your fitness isn't up there). My mind boggles as to why people seem to ride drop-bar road bikes in e.g. London, for which they are really not suitable at all.

 

[ashkeba]

That's because people can't/won't walk to them. Though most do actually run on grid roads - it's the newer, larger estates (it's not a perfect grid, it's skewed because the WCML and M1 are not parallel) where the walk would be over 500m that they run through. [...] This isn't true. Lots has been spent on them in recent years and they are mostly now in good condition and are well-used. It was true in the early 2000s, though. The reason for that problem was funding - because they are neither roads nor footpaths they weren't considered in the block grant (don't forget that most Council funding doesn't come from Council Tax). I believe that issue got solved but I know not how.

My last visit was 2017 I think. Maybe it has improvement. What % of trips are now bus and bike there, do you know?

They are certainly not suitable for narrow-tyred road bikes, but they aren't designed for that. Practical city cyclists tend to ride sit-up hybrids (the Dutch know their stuff here, though an actual Dutch hub-geared bike isn't great, you want derailleurs for a wider range of gears for hilly MK), which are perfect for them (and e-bikes for the hills if your fitness isn't up there). My mind boggles as to why people seem to ride drop-bar road bikes in e.g. London, for which they are really not suitable at all.

A hub gear is fine. They are wider gaps between each gear so only a slightly narrower range than a fiddly derailleur bike and fine for most hills if you sacrifice some top speed that few ordinary people do for long.

I think the London road bike culture is due to years where bus lanes were among the best places to ride and riders needed to keep up with buses, taxis and those terrible minicabs as much as possible, mainly in acceleration which ment racing type bikes, but England has been more keen on drop bar bikes than neighbour countries for decades anyway. The dutch type bike is seen as too old fashioned. The hire bikes started to change things but it may take many years to overcome the history, even with electric bikes encouraging new bikes tobebought and less emphasis about weight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My last visit was 2017 I think. Maybe it has improvement. What % of trips are now bus and bike there, do you know?

Not many changes since 2017. Which bits did you use? Some of the outer reaches are a bit poor, but the main ones are as good as the roads now (and better than roads in many towns).

I don't have a statistic I'm afraid, I don't think one is published.

A hub gear is fine. They are wider gaps between each gear so only a slightly narrower range than a fiddly derailleur bike and fine for most hills if you sacrifice some top speed that few ordinary people do for long.

You certainly in my experience would need a 7-speed hub with a much reduced gearing, which would mean you would lose significantly on top speed. A derailleur is much more suited to the UK for that very reason. I did for a while run an actual Dutch bike with that setup and it didn't work for me at all.

A 3-speed isn't great anywhere, even in relatively flat London I find there's never quite the right gear. The technology limits what the gaps can be.

I think the London road bike culture is due to years where bus lanes were among the best places to ride and riders needed to keep up with buses, taxis and those terrible minicabs as much as possible, mainly in acceleration which ment racing type bikes, but England has been more keen on drop bar bikes than neighbour countries for decades anyway. The dutch type bike is seen as too old fashioned. The hire bikes started to change things but it may take many years to overcome the history, even with electric bikes encouraging new bikes tobebought and less emphasis about weight.

Possibly so.

 

[johncrossley]

Rollerbrakes and hub gears are great, unless you need to get your bike serviced in the UK. I used to have a bike with both of those things but it got too much hassle. Sometimes the bike shop will simply say they won't look at it. Or they pretend they know what to do and then make a hash of it. I ended up spending travelling miles to shops that specialise in Dutch bikes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rollerbrakes and hub gears are great, unless you need to get your bike serviced in the UK. I used to have a bike with both of those things but it got too much hassle. Sometimes the bike shop will simply say they won't look at it. Or they pretend they know what to do and then make a hash of it. I ended up spending travelling miles to shops that specialise in Dutch bikes.

I found it also massive hassle when repairing a puncture. It takes ages to take the wheel off because there is so much to disconnect. Whereas with derailleur gears it's easy.

Roller brakes don't really win over discs, to be honest. They're better than rim brakes (because of performance in the wet), but premium bikes these days don't have rim brakes.

 

[johncrossley]

You certainly in my experience would need a 7-speed hub with a much reduced gearing, which would mean you would lose significantly on top speed. A derailleur is much more suited to the UK for that very reason. I did for a while run an actual Dutch bike with that setup and it didn't work for me at all.

I now have derailleur gears, having converted from a 7-speed hub. But I don't see the need for the higher gears and it would be better to have gears as low as possible instead. I only use the low gears for climbing, the medium gears for the flat and for going downhill there is no need to pedal anyway.

I found it also massive hassle when repairing a puncture. It takes ages to take the wheel off because there is so much to disconnect. Whereas with derailleur gears it's easy.

I haven't had a puncture for about 10 years. That's when changed to Marathon Plus tyres and I haven't had a puncture since.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I now have derailleur gears, having converted from a 7-speed hub. But I don't see the need for the higher gears and it would be better to have gears as low as possible instead. I only use the low gears for climbing, the medium gears for the flat and for going downhill there is no need to pedal anyway.

If you pedal downhill you get there faster!

I haven't had a puncture for about 10 years. That's when changed to Marathon Plus tyres and I haven't had a puncture since.

Certainly those are good but it still occasionally happens. Indeed, a puncture identifies when it's time to replace them! So only once every few years I'll give you, but I still prefer not to have to dismantle half the bike to do so.

 

[johncrossley]

My last visit was 2017 I think. Maybe it has improvement. What % of trips are now bus and bike there, do you know?

https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/50303/2018-03-06Milton-Keynes-Mobility-Strategy-2018-2036-Evidence-Base-v1.8-IG.pdf

The Milton Keynes Redway network is approximately 320km in length. Both pedestrians and cyclists are free to use the network which is spread across CMK and its surrounding areas and is aligned either next to grid roads or off-road. It is clear from discussion with internal council officers attending the Task 3 workshop and JTW data that the Redways are currently under-utilised and cycling does not currently have a large mode share. According to the Active People Survey (2014/15) for DfT, only 15% of adults in Milton Keynes cycle at least once per month for any purpose. Secondly, cycling accounts for only 4% of journeys to work within Milton Keynes which equals that in neighbouring Bedford (4%) and is less than neighbouring Aylesbury Vale (5%).

Also in that document there is a table on page 88

 

[ashkeba]

Rollerbrakes and hub gears are great, unless you need to get your bike serviced in the UK. I used to have a bike with both of those things but it got too much hassle. Sometimes the bike shop will simply say they won't look at it. Or they pretend they know what to do and then make a hash of it. I ended up spending travelling miles to shops that specialise in Dutch bikes.

Bikes are not cars! I think this idea of regular shop servicing comes from the road racing culture where clubmen took their summer bike into the shop each spring and winter bike each autumn to prepare them for the next season. Dutch bikes you just add lubricant to chain or hub when they make a noise and otherwise replace bits or take it to a shop when they brake or start to feel bad (usually grinding or clicking) and they will just keep rolling for many years - and there are many people across northern Europe that show some bikes will survive a long time without even that little!

I know Shimano say you need to apply their expensive magic oil every year or two but I think more people ignore that than comply because Shimano just tell you to buy a new hub if anything breaks anyway. Sturmey and Sram people have abused for decades without many failures too. I might follow the instructions for that expensive German touring hub (the roll-off hub?) but if you have one of those then you probably bought it from a specialist anyway.

I found it also massive hassle when repairing a puncture. It takes ages to take the wheel off because there is so much to disconnect. Whereas with derailleur gears it's easy.

I think this depends on your frame and wheels: even among Dutch bikes, some are easier to disconnect than others. A rear-facing rear fork with a two-part chain guard (three-part is easier) and 11-speed hub is more difficult than a diagonal-front-facing rear fork with half chain guard and 3 speed hub.

Also, the British racing bike culture means quick release wheels are widespread but that also means people often feel they have to take them off to avoid them being stolen while parked. Nutted wheels on mountain bikes or those imitation Dutch bikes with derailleurs are not necessarily so very much quicker to remove.

And you do not have to take the wheel off to repair a puncture on a real Dutch bike because the frame and mudguards are not so tight to the tyre, so you can get the tube out to sticker it. Or you can use one of those French cans of sealant. You only need to remove the wheel when the tube is beyond repair or you think it has had too many roadside stickers. But the tyres are often Marathon Plus or similar which do not flat often or completely anyway.

Why do British people seem to like making cycling complicated? Is it because they want reasons not to do it, like they would have cycled but the bike needs to go for its MOT? Will this hold up adoption of e-bikes?

 

[telstarbox]

mind boggles as to why people seem to ride drop-bar road bikes in e.g. London, for which they are really not suitable at all.

This is OT but I only have space for one bike to use in both London and the countryside, so it's going to be a drop bar one! You don't have to use the drops in town after all.

 

[ashkeba]

This is OT but I only have space for one bike to use in both London and the countryside, so it's going to be a drop bar one! You don't have to use the drops in town after all.

No, but if it is a racing-position bike then even on the tops or hoods, you are always going to be leaning forwards more, "head down bottom up", than if you were on a citi bike, which can make it more difficult to look around. The relaxed position of a touring or Audax bike would be better in town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nutted wheels on mountain bikes or those imitation Dutch bikes with derailleurs are not necessarily so very much quicker to remove.

Provided you have a "bone" spanner it takes exactly the same amount of time as a QR wheel. Pop the brakes off, undo the nuts and remove.

 

[ashkeba]

Provided you have a "bone" spanner it takes exactly the same amount of time as a QR wheel. Pop the brakes off, undo the nuts and remove.

Which is no different to the easier dutch bikes, except for unhooking the gear cable instead of unhooking the wheel from the derailleur.

 

[telstarbox]

No, but if it is a racing-position bike then even on the tops or hoods, you are always going to be leaning forwards more, "head down bottom up", than if you were on a citi bike, which can make it more difficult to look around. The relaxed position of a touring or Audax bike would be better in town.

It is also my Audax bike

 

[telstarbox]

EVs seem to be quietly picking up. I've seen at least two with green plates on every drive I've done recently, and that doesn't count the older ones before green plates came in. Quite a few of the VW ID3 about.

 

[DustyBin]

EVs seem to be quietly picking up. I've seen at least two with green plates on every drive I've done recently, and that doesn't count the older ones before green plates came in. Quite a few of the VW ID3 about.

I’m seeing more and more, they’re definitely gaining in popularity. With the arrival of more affordable cars like the ID.3 I can only see this continuing. The infrastructure needs to be there to support them though.

 

[AM9]

I’m seeing more and more, they’re definitely gaining in popularity. With the arrival of more affordable cars like the ID.3 I can only see this continuing. The infrastructure needs to be there to support them though.

It will be. It's far too big a business opportunity to be missed. That doesn't mean that there won't be occasional spots of late implementation, but for the majority of drivers, they will soon change their outlook and realise the cost benefits of non-polluting motoring. The motor industry has already acknowledged that its future sales depend on availability - e.g. BMW/Mercedes/Ford and VW signed an agreement back in 2016 for installing high power (up to 350kW) sites across Europe. Expect to see much more of that until charging is no less problematic than topping up with hydrocarbon fuels. It's naïve to think that they would all invest billions of Euros in all-electric production without ensuring that their customers could use the vehicles.