Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[DustyBin]

When individuals are not reponsible enough to make sensible, safe choices for the benefit of other drivers on the road, more regulation is necessary.

This is why we have speed cameras, for example. Because people are not willing or able to rein in their speed for the benefit of others.

Rules for drivers and motorcyclists - Fitness to drive (90 to 94)

Make sure that you are fit to drive. You MUST report to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) any health condition likely to affect your driving.

www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk

So no, I did not make it up.

That's not a rule though is it, it's guidance which allows people to make their own judgement. As I said, you do what you feel comfortable with and I'll do the same, as I have done for a number of years now with no issues whatsoever. Everybody has different limits, it's about recognising them, that's the responsible, sensible and safe part.

 

[paul1609]

Yes and no. A low range PHEV is still useful as electric mode can be used in a city. Particulates etc are a much more pressing issue than carbon is.

Motor traffic isn't a high producer of particulates any more. Diesel Engines have had particulate filters since Euro 5 which is over 10 years now. Apparently wood burners and domestic fires produce more particulates than motor traffic in London. So far the highest particulate counts in London have been identified on stations in tube lines where it far exceeds the road limits. Whats the betting that underground national rail stations like Birmingham are even worse?

 

[ashkeba]

That's not a rule though is it, it's guidance which allows people to make their own judgement. As I said, you do what you feel comfortable with and I'll do the same, as I have done for a number of years now with no issues whatsoever. Everybody has different limits, it's about recognising them, that's the responsible, sensible and safe part.

Many motoists would not recognise their limits if they sat on them! There are plenty of really stupid crash sites to show that, car hits big inanimate object stuff.

Past luck does not mean luck will continue forever, and even for the few who are truky exceptional not lucky, age will make you average eventually, so please consider keeping to the driving time recommend limit. I hope you do before your luck, and the luck of innocent bystanders, runs out.

Motor traffic isn't a high producer of particulates any more. Diesel Engines have had particulate filters since Euro 5 which is over 10 years now. Apparently wood burners and domestic fires produce more particulates than motor traffic in London.

As often, London is a special case. And exhaust filters do not catch brake and tyre particulates, which may also explain high particulate levels in poorly ventilated underground electric railway station.

This seems like whataboutism to avoid using cleaner cars or smaller EVs.

 

[Bald Rick]

They will mostly be pre-registrations by dealers and fleet registrations to get the new 21 plate rather than an actual representation of market share. In the case of the Tesla possibly waiting list buyers delaying to get the 21 plate as well.

Same would apply to the other marques, surely?

I'm sure you'll forgive me as I'm not being argumentative, but your reply is so like the majority I've seen, nobody is prepared to actually say what's going to happen, what facilities will be provided, by whom and at whose expense, the whole electric vehicle subject is all so "it'll be alright on the night"

My current car will allow me a round trip of around 550 miles, I can do my Devon/Sussex/Devon trips without a fuelling stop, what electric car is going to do that? where we are currently living has a lot of Edwardian/Victorian housing with no roads, just pathways, I have to park 5 or so minutes walk away from the house, where do I charge an electric car? there are virtually no public car parking spaces in town and those that do exist are both expensive and in small areas which would be even more limited should chargers be put in, the whole situation angers me that those so much in favour of electric cars are not prepared to put forward sensible and practical answers to people genuine concerns

I should just repeat that these are my personal feelings and not a disagreement with you personally

No electric car on the market will give you a 550mile round trip without charging (yet), but then nor does it need to. In your example, and assuming you were staying in Sussex for more than a couple of hours, you’d park it at a charger. Or if you chose to stop on what must be a 4-5 hour journey each way, you could charge at a service station / cafe / supermarket / wherever you chose to stop that had a charger. Y

Chargers will be, indeed are, being provided by all sorts of organisations at their own expense. The car companies, supermarkets, local authorities, service stations, petrol stations, car park operators, large retailers, cafes, and so on. They see it as an opportunity to encourage you to use their business or visit their town. Increasingly, places without chargers will be at a disadvantage, for example in a couple of years if you have a holiday cottage to let without a charger you will be cutting out a percentage of your market. (Similar to how people won’t hire holiday homes without WiFi - it might sound silly to some people but it’s reality for many of us).

The most difficult issue (aside from local DNO supply capacity) is dealing with those people who don’t have off street parking. That does need resolving, and will need local authorities to show the lead (pun entirely intended). However, it is a relatively small proportion of vehicle owners in that position. And it doesn’t stop them making other arrangements - I know of people in this position who charge at work or elsewhere as they go about their daily / weekly business, and don’t need to charge at home.

As with all new technology, it won’t suit everyone, and will take a while for all the issues to be resolved, but it will happen.

 

[DustyBin]

Many motoists would not recognise their limits if they sat on them! There are plenty of really stupid crash sites to show that, car hits big inanimate object stuff.

Past luck does not mean luck will continue forever, and even for the few who are truky exceptional not lucky, age will make you average eventually, so please consider keeping to the driving time recommend limit. I hope you do before your luck, and the luck of innocent bystanders, runs out.

I agree with your first point, sadly this is true.

I don't consider myself lucky or truly exceptional, just somebody who can concentrate for more than two hours at a time without issue. Thousands of HGV drivers, for example, do the same on a daily basis. Believe me, if I start to feel tired or fatigued I'll take a break, as I have done occasionally in the past.

 

[paul1609]

As often, London is a special case. And exhaust filters do not catch brake and tyre particulates, which may also explain high particulate levels in poorly ventilated underground electric railway station.

This seems like whataboutism to avoid using cleaner cars or smaller EVs.

The original post was about using a phev rather than an IC engined car. The brake and tyre particulates will be around the same if not possibly worse on the PHEV because of the extra weight.

 

[ashkeba]

I'm sure you'll forgive me as I'm not being argumentative, but your reply is so like the majority I've seen, nobody is prepared to actually say what's going to happen, what facilities will be provided, by whom and at whose expense, the whole electric vehicle subject is all so "it'll be alright on the night"

The whole fossil vehicle subject was "it'll be alright on the night" for many of us for a long time. I cannot be the only person here to have grown up with impromptu picnic stops wherever our family dodgy Citroen decided to overheat or drop itself to the bottom of the suspension or dump its oil or run its fuel mix rich until empty until the car cooled down or papa could locate a garage with the right tool or right oil or fuel.

I think electric vehicles are already ahead of that. Have we become less robust than our parent's generation? Less willing to manage slight hardships to attempt to create a better tomorrow for our children?

My current car will allow me a round trip of around 550 miles, I can do my Devon/Sussex/Devon trips without a fuelling stop, what electric car is going to do that?

Probably none yet but most people should be stopping for other reasons so it is not a big extra delay.

where we are currently living has a lot of Edwardian/Victorian housing with no roads, just pathways, I have to park 5 or so minutes walk away from the house, where do I charge an electric car?

At a filling station? Where do you refill your current car? Does the street 5 minutes walk away have petrol lines?

there are virtually no public car parking spaces in town and those that do exist are both expensive and in small areas which would be even more limited should chargers be put in, the whole situation angers me that those so much in favour of electric cars are not prepared to put forward sensible and practical answers to people genuine concerns

Well, the situation angers me that those so much in favour of fossil cars are not prepared to put forward sensible and practical answers to genuine concerns about pollution and sustainability. It is always those trying to improve things who are expected to solve everything at once, while those causing the problems never are asked similar questions.

A propos to chargers, most will be sited next to parking spaces, on land which is not parking, such as strips trapped between parking spaces and walls, so it should not reduce parking much. And I know of electric filling stations that have already been built on empty lots.

I should just repeat that these are my personal feelings and not a disagreement with you personally

Same.

The original post was about using a phev rather than an IC engined car. The brake and tyre particulates will be around the same if not possibly worse on the PHEV because of the extra weight.

I found petrol fans writing this lots but how true is that? The Nissan Leaf ZE1 and Micra K14 both about 1500kg. Toyota Corrolla Estate reportedly about 1300kg both conventional and hybrid. Volvo XC60 T8 says 1950kg in both. But Kia Niro DE is about 1400kg but EV about 1750kg. Some makers with both types, including BMW, do not list weights for both types, so there may be something to it, but I would welcome more information if you know it?

 

[DustyBin]

I suspect age has something to do with acceptance of EVs and younger people are already well known to be not as interested in cars in general as today's middle age and older. I suspect "petrolheads" are generally older. @DustyBin, are you late 40s at least, given that you would have to be that age at least to know about the 3-2-1 game show?

You're out by a few years there, mid thirties as it happens. I see your logic though!

I'm inclined to agree that there is less interest in cars from young people, but there's still a reasonable level.

 

[ABB125]

You're out by a few years there, mid thirties as it happens. I see your logic though!

I'm inclined to agree that there is less interest in cars from young people, but there's still a reasonable level.

I think it depends on a lot of factors: many young people nowadays consider a car simply as a tool; for others, they're like a pet! Another factor to consider is insurance cost: there will be many people who want a more exciting car, but put up with a "boring" one for a year/two years in order to build up a no-claims bonus, then buy something better. For example, one of my school friends had a 2017 Vauxhall Corsa for a year (his mum gave it to him apparently, and got a new car herself; if only all parents were so generous!*), then upgraded to an old (old enough to have the x000 style numberplate) Mazda RX8 (I think); it certainly turned heads in the school car park!




*Though to be fair, my dad is the owner of my car (and my brother's); he now owns 8 cars! He's currently using mine whilst I'm at university, waiting for his new one to arrive.

 

[paul1609]

I found petrol fans writing this lots but how true is that? The Nissan Leaf ZE1 and Micra K14 both about 1500kg. Toyota Corrolla Estate reportedly about 1300kg both conventional and hybrid. Volvo XC60 T8 says 1950kg in both. But Kia Niro DE is about 1400kg but EV about 1750kg. Some makers with both types, including BMW, do not list weights for both types, so there may be something to it, but I would welcome more information if you know it?

The kerb weight of the Micra K14 is just over 1000Kg, that for the Nissan Leaf ZE1 is around 1600kg (depends on the actual trim in both cases). So the Leaf is around 60% heavier. Manufacturers are not quoting comparable figures generally. Kerb Weight is the weight of the vehicle with (in the case of IC cars) 90%fuel. Gross Vehicle Weight is the Kerb Weight plus its full load of passengers and luggage.
The original post referred to an Outlander PHEV which is just under 2000kg.
I wouldn't regard my self as a petrol head by the way. My disappointing experience with EVs relates to mostly Nissan leafs operated by my employer and Hertz. Ive also had a Tesla Model S for one return trip to the lakes.

 

[JamesT]

I found petrol fans writing this lots but how true is that? The Nissan Leaf ZE1 and Micra K14 both about 1500kg. Toyota Corrolla Estate reportedly about 1300kg both conventional and hybrid. Volvo XC60 T8 says 1950kg in both. But Kia Niro DE is about 1400kg but EV about 1750kg. Some makers with both types, including BMW, do not list weights for both types, so there may be something to it, but I would welcome more information if you know it?

With any sort of Hybrid, you've got an EV drivetrain plus the ICE drivetrain. Pretty much by definition that's going to be heavier than just the ICE.

Although the Corolla Estate is about the same weight for ICE-only and Hybrid, the Hatchback version is 50kg lighter for just ICE.
With the XC60 the table at Engines | Volvo Cars UK the kerb weight for the non-Hybrid version is lighter at 1911kg instead of 1950kg.

 

[Domh245]

I found petrol fans writing this lots but how true is that? The Nissan Leaf ZE1 and Micra K14 both about 1500kg. Toyota Corrolla Estate reportedly about 1300kg both conventional and hybrid. Volvo XC60 T8 says 1950kg in both. But Kia Niro DE is about 1400kg but EV about 1750kg. Some makers with both types, including BMW, do not list weights for both types, so there may be something to it, but I would welcome more information if you know it?

Outlander (16MY) unspecced, kerb (dry) weight: PHEV 1845kg, Petrol (MT) 1395kg, Diesel 5 seater (AT) 1590kg

(and for some other reference points)
Range Rover sport (21MY), HSE dynamic, unladen weight (EU): PHEV 2539kg, Petrol MHEV (similar BHP) 2285kg, Diesel MHEV 2278kg

Discovery Sport (21MY), S trim, unladen weight* (EU): PHEV 2168kg, Petrol 1939kg, Diesel 1948kg

*75kg driver, all fluids, and 90% fuel

so PHEVS are heavier than non-PHEV models, though not always to the same extent, and of course by being able to use regenerative braking will cut down massively on brake particulate. Tyre particulate is about the only place it's still an issue, though hopefully improving tyre technology and filtration devices (as we've seen developed for ICE emissions) will help combat this

 

[telstarbox]

I'm sure you'll forgive me as I'm not being argumentative, but your reply is so like the majority I've seen, nobody is prepared to actually say what's going to happen, what facilities will be provided, by whom and at whose expense, the whole electric vehicle subject is all so "it'll be alright on the night"

My current car will allow me a round trip of around 550 miles, I can do my Devon/Sussex/Devon trips without a fuelling stop, what electric car is going to do that? where we are currently living has a lot of Edwardian/Victorian housing with no roads, just pathways, I have to park 5 or so minutes walk away from the house, where do I charge an electric car? there are virtually no public car parking spaces in town and those that do exist are both expensive and in small areas which would be even more limited should chargers be put in, the whole situation angers me that those so much in favour of electric cars are not prepared to put forward sensible and practical answers to people genuine concerns

I should just repeat that these are my personal feelings and not a disagreement with you personally

No problem

Not to be an "insider" but I work mostly with planning applications. In the last year every site with more than a few parking spaces has included at least one charger. Either because the council requires it, or because developers see it as a selling point to their customers. So they will soon be as widespread as phone chargers are on new trains.

Running a few more wires up Victorian streets is not the hardest things humans have done. Naturally the first few installations will have teething problems but these will be sorted.

I would strongly expect chargers to reduce in size as well. For a good analogy, look at the size of a 2000 mobile phone and compare with its 2020 equivalent.

 

[Ediswan]

How big are the service areas catering for long-haul EV users going to need to be ? The is a very rough approximation. These are very simple assumptios, please substitute your own.

Using estimates that keep the numbers simple, say an EV has half the range of ICE and takes five times as long to replenish (25 minutes compared to 5). Overall, you will need ten times as many rapid charging stations as fuel pumps to support the same vehicle mileage.

The largest UK service areas have 36 pumps (two sides). So, again picking a simple number, say there are currently ten pumps on one side. To replace that, you will need one hundred rapid charging stations.

The 'figure it out for yourselves' queueing system is unlikely to work well. Some kind of "Charging station number 27 please" system seems likely. I found a suggestion online that, at busy times, it might be neccesary to limit how much charge each vehicle could take in order to manage queueing time (this was entirely speculative).

Then there is the electrical power requirement. Assuming 50kW rapid chargers and 80% utilisation (20% for vehicles swapping over), that is 4MW each side. Not a lot of power in the grand scheme of things, but costly to install if there is no convenient connection to the power grid.

Not to mention the land required.

 

[telstarbox]

With respect your five minutes is an underestimate for a motorway stop. Even using the toilet or buying a Coke you'll be on site for 10 mins including the fuelling and paying. With EV you can do the other stuff while it charges.

 

[Ediswan]

With respect your five minutes is an underestimate for a motorway stop. Even using the toilet or buying a Coke you'll be on site for 10 mins including the fuelling and paying. With EV you can do the other stuff while it charges.

As I said, please subsitute your own assumptons. Ten minutes occupying the pump to refuel would bring my calculation down to fifty rapid chargers.

I am trying to explore what a real world of EVs might look like, all contributions welcome.

 

[paul1609]

As I said, please subsitute your own assumptons. Ten minutes occupying the pump to refuel would bring my calculation down to fifty rapid chargers.

I am trying to explore what a real world of EVs might look like, all contributions welcome.

To be honest I think EVs will see a huge increase in the demand at service stations. In my pick up truck with its 500 mile range I fill up at the local supermarket and at the destination. I never stop at motorway service stations. On my motorbike the range is only 160 miles so my first stop from home will invariably be a service area. Do any private motorists currently buy fuel at a motorway service area except in an emergency?

 

[Bald Rick]

How big are the service areas catering for long-haul EV users going to need to be ? The is a very rough approximation. These are very simple assumptios, please substitute your own.

Using estimates that keep the numbers simple, say an EV has half the range of ICE and takes five times as long to replenish (25 minutes compared to 5). Overall, you will need ten times as many rapid charging stations as fuel pumps to support the same vehicle mileage.

The largest UK service areas have 36 pumps (two sides). So, again picking a simple number, say there are currently ten pumps on one side. To replace that, you will need one hundred rapid charging stations.

The 'figure it out for yourselves' queueing system is unlikely to work well. Some kind of "Charging station number 27 please" system seems likely. I found a suggestion online that, at busy times, it might be neccesary to limit how much charge each vehicle could take in order to manage queueing time (this was entirely speculative).

Then there is the electrical power requirement. Assuming 50kW rapid chargers and 80% utilisation (20% for vehicles swapping over), that is 4MW each side. Not a lot of power in the grand scheme of things, but costly to install if there is no convenient connection to the power grid.

Not to mention the land required.

There are some ambitious leaps of logic there.

You are conflating two issues: 1) the need to stop at a service station and 2) the need to charge / refuel a car. At service stations, a lot more people do the former than the latter. Therefore the parking / land issue is irrelevant, as the parking is already sufficient for those using the service station. (And, as an aside, I have never seen a service station petrol station have anything more than a couple of vehicles at it)

Secondly, you are assuming that people will always charge up at a service station. Sure many will, and many do now. But they won’t always. It’s quite conceivable that you would do a, say, 200 mile trip, with a half hour stop in the middle, and choose not to charge if you have the range and a free / cheap charge the other end (for example, if you are driving home, and have a 5p/kWh night rate available).

Third, there is already some decent power provision at many service stations. The one closest to me has 12 x 120kw Tesla superchargers and another 4 (I think) x 100kW. So nearly 2MW. Clearly I don’t know if they can all be used concurrently. I agree that scaling that up ten fold (say) will be quite a challenge on the local power system, and not dissimilar to the challenges faced by railway electrification teams. But easily done with some static frequency converters.

 

[Ediswan]

Do any private motorists currently buy fuel at a motorway service area except in an emergency?

Not this one. If then, as little as possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do any private motorists currently buy fuel at a motorway service area except in an emergency?

In over thirty years of driving, I’ve only done it once. Possibly relevant to this thread - it was a mad dash from the Highlands to Hertfordshire with a ‘splash and dash’ at Annandale, and only then because I missed the turn for Lesmahagow and the Tesco there. Wouldn’t have been possible in an EV, as I was stopped for 15 minutes. However I’ve needed to make that sort of journey, in a rush, once in three decades, and I have no intention of doing it again without a more leisurely stopping pattern!

 

[ABB125]

. Do any private motorists currently buy fuel at a motorway service area except in an emergency?

Not me!
(Admittedly the number of long journeys I've done since passing my test can be counted on one hand!)

 

[Ediswan]

There are some ambitious leaps of logic there.

You are conflating two issues: 1) the need to stop at a service station and 2) the need to charge / refuel a car. At service stations, a lot more people do the former than the latter. Therefore the parking / land issue is irrelevant, as the parking is already sufficient for those using the service station. (And, as an aside, I have never seen a service station petrol station have anything more than a couple of vehicles at it)

Disagree. I was specifically discussing the need to use a charging station. At any large facility, parking for those not needing fuel/charge will be separate. I am surprised you have never seen a service station with a queue for the pumps.

Secondly, you are assuming that people will always charge up at a service station. Sure many will, and many do now. But they won’t always. It’s quite conceivable that you would do a, say, 200 mile trip, with a half hour stop in the middle, and choose not to charge if you have the range and a free / cheap charge the other end (for example, if you are driving home, and have a 5p/kWh night rate available).

Yes, I did say 'long haul'. Where practical, I agree that other means will be used.

 

[Bald Rick]

Disagree. I was specifically discussing the need to use a charging station. At any large facility, parking for those not needing fuel/charge will be separate. I am surprised you have never seen a service station with a queue for the pumps.

BIB. But it isn’t. Go to service stations now, and you’ll see the ‘charging stations’ are just ordinary spaces in the main car park - often closer to the actual service block than the rest of the spaces. It’s the same at my local station, the charging points are just ordinary spaces, but with a charging point next to them. Tescos are doing the same.

Sure, I expect car parks to be reconfigured to make space for the charging points, but, in time, it will still be one big car park with lots of charging points.

 

[johncrossley]

How do they deal with the various problems highlighted in countries with higher EV ownership?

 

[Ediswan]

Sure, I expect car parks to be reconfigured to make space for the charging points, but, in time, it will still be one big car park with lots of charging points.

OK, I missed that small point. The perils of undeclared assumptions.

I still suspect that, at peak periods, there will be a need for some kind of system to enable drivers to find, or queue for, a free charger.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, I missed that small point. The perils of undeclared assumptions.

I still suspect that, at peak periods, there will be a need for some kind of system to enable drivers to find, or queue for, a free charger.

There already is, sort of. The Zap map app (try saying that after a few shandies) has every public charger in it, and its current availability status. That will need refining, and potentially some form of virtual queuing system needed. But given that the car park in a local Sainsburys has had the tech to direct you to a free space for several years, it’s essily possible.

How do they deal with the various problems highlighted in countries with higher EV ownership?

I’m not sure what I’m walking into here, but what various problems?

 

[johncrossley]

I’m not sure what I’m walking into here, but what various problems?

The problems/objections mentioned by the sceptics on this thread. They must have overcome these issues abroad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problems/objections mentioned by the sceptics on this thread. They must have overcome these issues abroad.

Most of them are non-issues*, or are caused by people who drive long distances non-stop without appropriate breaks and so shouldn't be provided for anyway.

* I understand "fear of the unknown", "range anxiety" etc, but most people who go electric seem not to find them to be *actual* issues in my experience.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problems/objections mentioned by the sceptics on this thread. They must have overcome these issues abroad.

Ah, sorry, I misread the question to mean that there had been problems in other countries.

The only problems I’m aware of are in Norway, which has a very high take up of EVs (more than half of new cars are now EVs). One issue - the owner of one of the charging networks hiked its prices significantly, but AIUI most people voted with their feet and went elsewhere.

The other issue was that in February during a particularly cold snap their Grid got close to capacity. Norway banned oil for heating last year, so most people have electric heating. Add in a load of cars charging (and heating up for their owners to get into) in the morning and the spot wholesale price spiked. Had the North Sea Link interconnector been available, no doubt we would have been exporting electricity at very lucrative rates.

 

[ExRes]

Most of them are non-issues*, or are caused by people who drive long distances non-stop without appropriate breaks and so shouldn't be provided for anyway.

* I understand "fear of the unknown", "range anxiety" etc, but most people who go electric seem not to find them to be *actual* issues in my experience.

I wish you'd stop with the "without appropriate breaks", the breaks you've already quoted are entirely made up by you, the actual recommendation is four and a half hours not the two you've decided on

As for the "non-issues", little things like the expected shortfall of raw materials to make enough car batteries to go around, the environmental impact of mining those materials and their global transportation, the concerns over the recycling of used batteries, the fact that in many older residential areas it will be impossible for people to charge their cars as they can't park anywhere near their house, but of course these are simply "non issues" only relevant to "sceptics" and not worthy of discussion