Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[AndrewE]

However the Chinese government seems to have got the message about climate change and is trying to do something about it, at least in part because they see the economic potential of being a leader in this field. Yes they are still a big polluter but because they do so much manufacturing for export they've effectively imported the pollution those activities cause. We also have the Chinese to thank for making solar power economically competitive by reducing the manufacturing cost for PV panels.

and interestingly, recent radio 4 pundits have said several times that China often under-promises and over-delivers. There is hope yet!

 

[Starmill]

That’s interesting - I’m about to swap onto a tariff that has peak rate at 14p/kWh, and off peak at 5p. The same provider (octopus) has an agile tariff that tracks wholesale prices by the half hour, and there are periods where you get paid to use electricity!

Some EV owners have become adept at using this to their advantage, turning their chargers on at the end of a day where a windy night is forecast and waking up to find their batteries charged and their net electricity bill having decreased.

Of course strictly speaking you don't need a vehicle to take such advantage, a home installation of a battery is as good.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course strictly speaking you don't need a vehicle to take such advantage, a home installation of a battery is as good.

Indeed so, but doesn’t have the significant advantage of being able to get you to work in the morning!

Some EV owners have become adept at using this to their advantage, turning their chargers on at the end of a day where a windy night is forecast and waking up to find their batteries charged and their net electricity bill having decreased.

Indeed, but I think the times of negative wholesale pricing will be fairly short lived. Even with all the extra wind coming on line in the next 5 years (about 50% more), the amount of storage available on the grid is increasing quickly. Partly through EVs, but also home storage systems (typically allied to solar panel installation), and some larger scale things that the electricity industry is doing. Not least of these is the new interconnectors to France and Norway.

There will of course still be wide variations in price, but I suspect that negative wholesale prices will only be around for another couple of years.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed so, but doesn’t have the significant advantage of being able to get you to work in the morning!



Indeed, but I think the times of negative wholesale pricing will be fairly short lived. Even with all the extra wind coming on line in the next 5 years (about 50% more), the amount of storage available on the grid is increasing quickly. Partly through EVs, but also home storage systems (typically allied to solar panel installation), and some larger scale things that the electricity industry is doing. Not least of these is the new interconnectors to France and Norway.

There will of course still be wide variations in price, but I suspect that negative wholesale prices will only be around for another couple of years.

Indeed so. I only wish I personally had learnt to drive earlier, despite all of the bother and significant upfront expense of doing so, and taken some of these early-adopter advantages of electric vehicles for my own. By the time I can afford one they'll probably be the mainstream. I know someone who has been driving electric for a decade and wouldn't ever look back. Still, not to worry! At least that experience means that unlike pretty much the whole of the rest of my family I'm quite unconcerned by the prospect of regular public transport use; I'd have probably ended up like them otherwise.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed so, but doesn’t have the significant advantage of being able to get you to work in the morning!



Indeed, but I think the times of negative wholesale pricing will be fairly short lived. Even with all the extra wind coming on line in the next 5 years (about 50% more), the amount of storage available on the grid is increasing quickly. Partly through EVs, but also home storage systems (typically allied to solar panel installation), and some larger scale things that the electricity industry is doing. Not least of these is the new interconnectors to France and Norway.

There will of course still be wide variations in price, but I suspect that negative wholesale prices will only be around for another couple of years.

Id rather hope thats some alarm bells are beginning to ring rather loudly in National Grid hq about interconnector reliability given the recent performance of the Irish, Dutch and Western HVDC links.

 

[Bald Rick]

Id rather hope thats some alarm bells are beginning to ring rather loudly in National Grid hq about interconnector reliability given the recent performance of the Irish, Dutch and Western HVDC links.

I expect they are... diversity helps.

 

[ashkeba]

They need an alternative means of getting there though, and and a rattling, uncomfortable, dirty, slow (and expensive to boot) bus isn’t acceptable. I honestly think we’re 20 to 30 years from reduced car ownership in the UK, the alternatives just aren’t there plus even many non-petrol heads love their cars as status symbols if nothing else.

That is not true. It ended with Mondeo Man and will soon be regarded as unacceptable as lighting up big stinky cigars, which also used to be a status symbol.

On a positive note, the local council introduced a bus lane on a busy main road near me circa 4 years ago which has been very unpopular locally. Last weekend they finally scrapped it with all the lettering burnt off and the signage removed, result!

What is the result? A worse bus service and less space for bikes, leading to more driving, leading to more congestion? How is that positive to anyone reasonable?

The alternative means of getting there may be e-bikes, or if the UK laws are ever simplified, s-bikes and e- scooters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's an S-bike?

 

[DustyBin]

That is not true. It ended with Mondeo Man and will soon be regarded as unacceptable as lighting up big stinky cigars, which also used to be a status symbol.

So who’s buying all of these Mercs, Beemers and Audis then? I know, and work with, a lot of people who have next to no interest in cars but they drive something expensive because they can. It’s a status symbol as I said. You may argue that this is anecdotal but the sales figures prove otherwise…

The lobbyists would like to see IC engined cars regarded as unacceptable, but there’s a long way to go with that. As has been discussed throughout this thread, you need to offer people a viable alternative.

What is the result? A worse bus service and less space for bikes, leading to more driving, leading to more congestion? How is that positive to anyone reasonable?

The alternative means of getting there may be e-bikes, or if the UK laws are ever simplified, s-bikes and e- scooters.

The inconvenience caused to cars, and the resulting congestion outweighed the benefit to buses. Clearly the local authority carried out a similar cost benefit analysis.

 

[ashkeba]

What's an S-bike?

The next class up from e bike. E bike is 250w and 15.5mph max. S bike is 28mph max and I forget the w. The UK currently treats them as motorbikes even though they are built as bikes with slightly tougher frames, wheels and especially tyres, so you need a licence/insurance/MOT, they are difficult to register and riding is banned from cycleways, even when the electricity is off or limited to e-bike level.

They seem like an ideal electric vehicle for outer suburban and short interurban private transport, especially where cycleways still have gapa.

 

[AndrewE]

The inconvenience caused to cars, and the resulting congestion outweighed the benefit to buses. Clearly the local authority carried out a similar cost benefit analysis.

I very much doubt it. Did you see this article? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...the-time-study-kensington-and-chelsea-council It said

Removed London bike lane [now] blocked by parked cars most of the time – study​

Analysis shows average car journey times have also increased after Kensington and Chelsea council took out lane

 

[edwin_m]

The next class up from e bike. E bike is 250w and 15.5mph max. S bike is 28mph max and I forget the w. The UK currently treats them as motorbikes even though they are built as bikes with slightly tougher frames, wheels and especially tyres, so you need a licence/insurance/MOT, they are difficult to register and riding is banned from cycleways, even when the electricity is off or limited to e-bike level.

They seem like an ideal electric vehicle for outer suburban and short interurban private transport, especially where cycleways still have gapa.

28mph is into the territory where an accident could easily be serious or even fatal, so it seems reasonable to me that these should have some greater regulation - though perhaps not the full gamut applied to motorbikes.

The inconvenience caused to cars, and the resulting congestion outweighed the benefit to buses. Clearly the local authority carried out a similar cost benefit analysis.

That may be so if the bus lane had been turned into a cycle-only lane, but it's not applicable here where a bus lane has become a general traffic lane. When the buses had their own lane, they were unaffected by any congestion in the general traffic lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The next class up from e bike. E bike is 250w and 15.5mph max. S bike is 28mph max and I forget the w. The UK currently treats them as motorbikes even though they are built as bikes with slightly tougher frames, wheels and especially tyres, so you need a licence/insurance/MOT, they are difficult to register and riding is banned from cycleways, even when the electricity is off or limited to e-bike level.

They seem like an ideal electric vehicle for outer suburban and short interurban private transport, especially where cycleways still have gapa.

So they're in essence electric mopeds, more of the Dutch Bromfiets category than the typical 30mph-limited motor scooters you see in the UK?

They certainly sound like they have uses, but I don't object to them being regulated as the same as the equivalent (in speed terms) petrol vehicle.

 

[DustyBin]

28mph is into the territory where an accident could easily be serious or even fatal, so it seems reasonable to me that these should have some greater regulation - though perhaps not the full gamut applied to motorbikes.

That may be so if the bus lane had been turned into a cycle-only lane, but it's not applicable here where a bus lane has become a general traffic lane. When the buses had their own lane, they were unaffected by any congestion in the general traffic lane.

It's not only about buses though; as I said the inconvenience to cars outweighed the benefit to buses. It's better to have two lanes of slow moving traffic than one not moving at all for long periods of time.

 

[ashkeba]

So who’s buying all of these Mercs, Beemers and Audis then? I know, and work with, a lot of people who have next to no interest in cars but they drive something expensive because they can. It’s a status symbol as I said. You may argue that this is anecdotal but the sales figures prove otherwise…

No, I argue that the sales figures do not prove it. The sales figures only prove that they sell. There may be many reasons. Maybe those are the cars with the best reviews that the people you know can afford. Part of that may be that the reviewers like them because they are status symbols but that does not feature in many good reviews.

The inconvenience caused to cars, and the resulting congestion outweighed the benefit to buses. Clearly the local authority carried out a similar cost benefit analysis.

If it is so clear, can you show us that analysis, please? I think it more likely that the motoring lobby applied pressure to politicians until they instructed removal to placate the complainers and to hell with resident health.

28mph is into the territory where an accident could easily be serious or even fatal, so it seems reasonable to me that these should have some greater regulation - though perhaps not the full gamut applied to motorbikes.

Yes, I would agree with that. I think riders have to be insured adults in Germany, but I have never ridden one so am not familiar with the law there.

So they're in essence electric mopeds, more of the Dutch Bromfiets category than the typical 30mph-limited motor scooters you see in the UK?

I think bromfietsen do not have to have pedals and they are much heavier, so no, an S bike is much more like an E bike with assistance to a higher speed than a bromfiets.

They certainly sound like they have uses, but I don't object to them being regulated as the same as the equivalent (in speed terms) petrol vehicle.

I think the current practical problems with that are that bulk approval is over the top and very expensive, plus petrol motorcycle MOT testers do not understand them, plus the current motorcycle compulsory basic training in practice has to be done on motorbikes. Perhaps all those can be solved but I think e-scooters will be legalised and harvest the bottom out of the market before that happens.

 

[DustyBin]

No, I argue that the sales figures do not prove it. The sales figures only prove that they sell. There may be many reasons. Maybe those are the cars with the best reviews that the people you know can afford. Part of that may be that the reviewers like them because they are status symbols but that does not feature in many good reviews.

They're not the best cars and nor do they get the best reviews, they are however marketed as premium products and buying one shows your neighbours and the rest of the world that you can afford to shop in that market. They're the definition of a status symbol for many (not all) people. As a petrolhead I buy nice cars because I enjoy them beyond superficial reasons but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel satisfied when somebody comments at the petrol station or some kids film me sat at the traffic lights, so to a certain extent I'm 'guilty' myself.

If it is so clear, can you show us that analysis, please? I think it more likely that the motoring lobby applied pressure to politicians until they instructed removal to placate the complainers and to hell with resident health.

I said they clearly carried out that analysis, not that the analysis was clear (although it's not unreasonable to presume they saw things the way I did based on the outcome). At least some of the complainants were residents, myself included, incidentally....

 

[edwin_m]

It's not only about buses though; as I said the inconvenience to cars outweighed the benefit to buses. It's better to have two lanes of slow moving traffic than one not moving at all for long periods of time.

That would only be true if there were more people in the cars than in the buses (and maybe not even then, because delaying a bus also affects people waiting for it further down the road, and makes the passengers more likely to drive next time and cause even more congestion). Quite often a bus lane that appears empty most of the time can be carrying more people than a continuous lane of cars.

It may be that isn't the case in the specific example you mention - there's no enough information to know. But it certainly isn't true for every bus lane. Don't bet on the local authority having done the analysis, as it could just be something like a particular councillor shouting louder than everyone else.

 

[DustyBin]

That would only be true if there were more people in the cars than in the buses (and maybe not even then, because delaying a bus also affects people waiting for it further down the road, and makes the passengers more likely to drive next time and cause even more congestion). Quite often a bus lane that appears empty most of the time can be carrying more people than a continuous lane of cars.

It may be that isn't the case in the specific example you mention - there's no enough information to know. But it certainly isn't true for every bus lane. Don't bet on the local authority having done the analysis, as it could just be something like a particular councillor shouting louder than everyone else.

That's fair enough, I wouldn't actually dispute what you've said there. It was a short run of bus lane which saw moderate use but caused chaos for everybody else, I realise however that this doesn't apply in every case.

 

[Bald Rick]

They're not the best cars and nor do they get the best reviews, they are however marketed as premium products and buying one shows your neighbours and the rest of the world that you can afford to shop in that market.

Interestingly, the 4th most popular model of new car sold in March (the last month for which numbers have been released) was the Tesla 3, outselling every model of Audi, BMW, VW, etc.

 

[DustyBin]

Interestingly, the 4th most popular model of new car sold in March (the last month for which numbers have been released) was the Tesla 3, outselling every model of Audi, BMW, VW, etc.

Indeed, and available from only £42k....

 

[ABB125]

Interestingly, the 4th most popular model of new car sold in March (the last month for which numbers have been released) was the Tesla 3, outselling every model of Audi, BMW, VW, etc.

It even managed to outsell (just) the Nissan Squashy*! Personally, I'd consider any Tesla vehicle as more or a status symbol than a "normal" Audi/BMW etc, and arguably more than some of the "performance" models from said manufacturers too. Here's the full top ten for anyone interested:


(I also recently discovered that there are two Tesla showrooms within half a mile of each other, either side of Bordesley station in Birmingham. I wonder how many of those 6585 Model 3s were bought here?)



*Deliberate mis-spelling

Indeed, and available from only £42k....

"Only £400 a month" or similar.

I must say, I'm impressed by the 0-60 in 3.1s you can apparently get in the "performance" model.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, and available from only £42k....

Or £450/ month leased. Ok you can get a 3 series for £150 less, but then if you’re filling the tank more than twice a month ...

 

[DustyBin]

Or £450/ month leased. Ok you can get a 3 series for £150 less, but then if you’re filling the tank more than twice a month ...

But a status symbol nonetheless for many I suspect....

 

[biko]

So they're in essence electric mopeds, more of the Dutch Bromfiets category than the typical 30mph-limited motor scooters you see in the UK?

I think bromfietsen do not have to have pedals and they are much heavier, so no, an S bike is much more like an E bike with assistance to a higher speed than a bromfiets

What you call S bike is called a speed pedelec in the Netherlands and it is classified legally as a bromfiets meaning one should have a drivers license and number plate. Regular e-bikes are limited to 25 km/h and anything that can go faster is automatically a bromfiets. Normal bromfietsen are indeed heavier,
don’t have pedals and are, I believe, called mopeds in English.

 

[paul1609]

and it only takes 37 hour 45 mins to charge using a 13a plug!

 

[Ediswan]

What you call S bike is called a speed pedelec in the Netherlands and it is classified legally as a bromfiets meaning one should have a drivers license and number plate. Regular e-bikes are limited to 25 km/h and anything that can go faster is automatically a bromfiets. Normal bromfietsen are indeed heavier, don’t have pedals and are, I believe, called mopeds in English.

English mopeds do have pedals. It is in the name, motor and pedals. The pedals are rarely used.

The Stevenage 'cycle' paths seem to be home to all varieties of electric bicyles, and some single wheelers. Mopeds (30 mph) are explicitly permitted on most, so everybody is used to there being some faster traffic. Are E-scooters and S bikes without the full moped treatment legal there ? No idea, the paths are not public highways. I have never managed to track down the local legislation. In practice, nobody seems to mind.

 

[biko]

English mopeds do have pedals. It is in the name, motor and pedals. The pedals are rarely used

I see, the problem is dictionaries translate these concepts in different ways. The correct translation of bromfiets should be motor scooter (at least the Wikipedia page seems to suggest so). A moped is a snorfiets in Dutch which is also a class of vehicle in law but it is now getting a bit off topic...

To get back to topic, it is quite complex to fit these electric vehicles into existing legal categories. In the Netherlands we are lucky that we have the concept of bromfiets in which these S bikes / speed pedelecs fit, but we have still problems with light and small electric vehicles that deliver groceries. These are legally also a bromfiets but don’t really fit on combined paths for cyclists and bromfietsen...

The Stevenage 'cycle' paths seem to be home to all varieties of electric bicyles, and some single wheelers. Mopeds (30 mph) are explicitly permitted on most, so everybody is used to there being some faster traffic. Are E-scooters and S bikes without the full moped treatment legal there ? No idea, the paths are not public highways. I have never managed to track down the local legislation. In practice, nobody seems to mind.

I am also interested in the answer to this question, this depends on the legal classification of these vehicles.

 

[johncrossley]

All kinds of electric bike can be seen ridden by food delivery people in London these days, many of them officially mopeds as they don't need to be pedalled. Some of these have giant tyres and almost look like a motorbike. There is seemingly no enforcement. A lot of the more legal electric bikes used in food delivery are regular mountain bikes with the front wheel replaced by a wheel with an electric motor with a battery taped to the frame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It even managed to outsell (just) the Nissan Squashy

I've always referred to that as the "Nissan Cashcow" given how many they sell.

All kinds of electric bike can be seen ridden by food delivery people in London these days, many of them officially mopeds as they don't need to be pedalled. Some of these have giant tyres and almost look like a motorbike. There is seemingly no enforcement. A lot of the more legal electric bikes used in food delivery are regular mountain bikes with the front wheel replaced by a wheel with an electric motor with a battery taped to the frame.

There is a particular class of mountain bike, I think they're called sand bikes, desert bikes or something like that, that do have motorcycle-like tyres. I've certainly seen electric versions of these and they are perfectly legit. I wonder if these riders are modding them not to require pedalling?

 

[ABB125]

I've always referred to that as the "Nissan Cashcow" given how many they sell.

That too!