Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[johncrossley]

the fact that in many older residential areas it will be impossible for people to charge their cars as they can't park anywhere near their house

Surely they must have sorted this issue in Norway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wish you'd stop with the "without appropriate breaks", the breaks you've already quoted are entirely made up by you, the actual recommendation is four and a half hours not the two you've decided on

The two hour recommendation is directly from the Highway Code, as I've already pointed out.

 

[ExRes]

Surely they must have sorted this issue in Norway?

If they have sorted it then I hope someone in this country asks them for their advice, in the meantime a visit to various seaside towns in Devon should underline my concerns and save me from buying a half mile or so of cable to reach the nearest point to my house I can park

The two hour recommendation is directly from the Highway Code, as I've already pointed out.

It may be a recommendation but it means nothing whatsoever in law and, let's face it, many of the requirements laid down in the Highway Code are ignored on a regular basis, just look at Section 71, but we digress from the thread

 

[AndrewE]

I said they clearly carried out that analysis, not that the analysis was clear (although it's not unreasonable to presume they saw things the way I did based on the outcome). At least some of the complainants were residents, myself included, incidentally....

So where is the evidence for that assertion? Why is it "clear?"
If you can't produce it, or council minutes pointing to it and giving a working link, we are entitled to conclude that it is just another example of a council caving in to a vociferous minority.

 

[paul1609]

Surely they must have sorted this issue in Norway?

Norway is about 1.3 times the size of the UK in land mass and has a population of approx 5.5 million thats about 80 % of Scotland. As a consequence theres an awful lot more space. Because of the weather nearly every property has off road or more normally garage parking.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes and no. A low range PHEV is still useful as electric mode can be used in a city. Particulates etc are a much more pressing issue than carbon is.

most city journeys do not need to be made by private transport, full stop. Walking, cycling, buses, even trains (shock, horror) and combinations of all of them deal with almost all jouurneys.

 

[Bald Rick]

Norway is about 1.3 times the size of the UK in land mass and has a population of approx 5.5 million thats about 80 % of Scotland. As a consequence theres an awful lot more space. Because of the weather nearly every property has off road or more normally garage parking.

Inarguably true. However there is still a fair bit of on street residential parking in Oslo, and one imagines that EV owners get round the issue by simply charging at places where they park their car at the other end of the journeys (work, supermarket, hotel, etc).

This is not to dismiss the issue - as I said earlier it will be one of the more difficult hurdles to cross in this country. However, I suspect that the number of people who own a car and only have access to on street parking in this country is relatively small. At a complete guess, somewhere around 10% of all cars / light goods vehicles.

 

[DustyBin]

The two hour recommendation is directly from the Highway Code, as I've already pointed out.

And yet HGV drivers are allowed (as in legally allowed) to drive for 4.5 hours at a time as I’ve pointed out. If driving for more than a couple of hours at a time was really that dangerous why on earth would the law permit you to do so in a 44 tonne truck?

I’ll say it again, you do what you feel comfortable with, but recognise that everybody is different and please refrain from telling other people what to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yet HGV drivers are allowed (as in legally allowed) to drive for 4.5 hours at a time as I’ve pointed out. If driving for more than a couple of hours at a time was really that dangerous why on earth would the law permit you to do so in a 44 tonne truck?

Recommendations are often tighter than laws. One should aim to follow the ethos of recommendations (but nobody will come shouting if over by 10 minutes), but one must follow the laws.

I’ll say it again, you do what you feel comfortable with, but recognise that everybody is different and please refrain from telling other people what to do.

Until people accept that your primary concern when on the road must be the safety of others, not yourself, then no, I will do no such thing.

 

[DustyBin]

Recommendations are often tighter than laws. One should aim to follow the ethos of recommendations (but nobody will come shouting if over by 10 minutes), but one must follow the laws.

There’s a big difference between 2 and 4.5 hours; very few HGV drivers stop every 2 hours as they’d never get anywhere. That leaves a wide margin for discretion and common sense.

Until people accept that your primary concern when on the road must be the safety of others, not yourself, then no, I will do no such thing.

I think you’ll find the two are intrinsically linked, although you do of course get the occasional idiot who doesn’t think about anybody. That’s not what we’re taking about here though.

 

[SargeNpton]

This is not to dismiss the issue - as I said earlier it will be one of the more difficult hurdles to cross in this country. However, I suspect that the number of people who own a car and only have access to on street parking in this country is relatively small. At a complete guess, somewhere around 10% of all cars / light goods vehicles.

I'd hazard a guess that 40%-50% of private cars only have on-street parking, simply because of the number of car owners who live in terraced streets or in flats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Inarguably true. However there is still a fair bit of on street residential parking in Oslo, and one imagines that EV owners get round the issue by simply charging at places where they park their car at the other end of the journeys (work, supermarket, hotel, etc).

This is not to dismiss the issue - as I said earlier it will be one of the more difficult hurdles to cross in this country. However, I suspect that the number of people who own a car and only have access to on street parking in this country is relatively small. At a complete guess, somewhere around 10% of all cars / light goods vehicles.

It's not that difficult, because most people drive places in their car, and most of those places they drive will have at least some chargers in the car park. A supermarket trip is an obvious example.

It would be an issue for a sales rep driving long distances daily. It wouldn't be an issue for the average car user who does a local-ish commute, a few local-ish leisure journeys on the weekend and the very occasional long trip. If they plug in on the weekly supermarket trip and other such opportunities (work car park, say) they'll likely be fine. They might need to make a special journey to charge before their annual holidays but this is not a big issue.

A typical home worker will use their car even less during the week so a once a week fast charge at the supermarket will be fine.

The sales rep, if it's important to him, will simply need to factor that into his choice of housing to somewhere with off-street parking. People move house for lots of reasons, the need for EV charging for high-mileage daily drivers will just add one more to the hundreds of reasons people move every day.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd hazard a guess that 40%-50% of private cars only have on-street parking, simply because of the number of car owners who live in terraced streets or in flats.

We’ll have to disagree on that. Outside the centre of big cities, most blocks of flats have off street parking - every one I’ve ever lived in does, and I can’t think of many flats in my city that don’t have it. And the proportion of the housing stock that is terraced, and without off street parking, is actually rather small. And the proportion of people who live in those properties and have a car is smaller still.

To put some numbers on it, 21% of U.K. dwellings are flats, and 27% terraced homes. Many of these properties have off street parking. Many of their occupants do not own cars, particularly the bigger blocks of flats in city centre locations, and those in social housing (which by its nature is more likely to be flats or terraced).

It's not that difficult, because most people drive places in their car, and most of those places they drive will have at least some chargers in the car park. A supermarket trip is an obvious example.

It would be an issue for a sales rep driving long distances daily. It wouldn't be an issue for the average car user who does a local-ish commute, a few local-ish leisure journeys on the weekend and the very occasional long trip. If they plug in on the weekly supermarket trip and other such opportunities (work car park, say) they'll likely be fine. They might need to make a special journey to charge before their annual holidays but this is not a big issue.

A typical home worker will use their car even less during the week so a once a week fast charge at the supermarket will be fine.

The sales rep, if it's important to him, will simply need to factor that into his choice of housing to somewhere with off-street parking.

Agreed.

 

[PeterC]

I have removed a lot of potential "range anxiety" by buying a new phone which has capacity for all the different apps that I would need to sign up to.

 

[edwin_m]

I have removed a lot of potential "range anxiety" by buying a new phone which has capacity for all the different apps that I would need to sign up to.

But what happens if all those apps drain your phone battery? You then have to find a phone charger to find a car charger...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what happens if all those apps drain your phone battery? You then have to find a phone charger to find a car charger...

Apps don't drain your battery when you are not using them.

 

[ABB125]

Apps don't drain your battery when you are not using them.

Supposedly...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Supposedly...

Not supposedly. They don't and they can't - it's impossible for a piece of software that is not executing to do anything. Useful to learn how to quit an app on your phone, though, as if you leave it running it could.

 

[ABB125]

Not supposedly. They don't and they can't - it's impossible for a piece of software that is not executing to do anything. Useful to learn how to quit an app on your phone, though, as if you leave it running it could.

Over the last few days my phone battery life has decreased from about two days to about 12 hours. And the battery usage data doesn't yield the answer (when on about 30%, adding up all the percentages (including system usage) comes to less than half the apparent usage). So forgive me for not trusting these things!

But we digress...

 

[DustyBin]

So where is the evidence for that assertion? Why is it "clear?"
If you can't produce it, or council minutes pointing to it and giving a working link, we are entitled to conclude that it is just another example of a council caving in to a vociferous minority.

Well, it turns out we're both wrong. The bus lane was temporary whilst traffic (including buses) was diverted due to roadworks on another nearby road. The roadworks in question overran (by nearly two years!) and so the bus lane remained in place. It must have been there for at least three years in total so I presumed it was permanent, having not been informed otherwise and having not put two and two together. The main thing is it's gone, finally.

 

[JohnMcL7]

The thread seems to have drifted a long way from the original post which wasn't about ICE vs electric cars but about electric cars reducing take up of walking, cycling and public transport:

Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.

Someone mentioned a few pages back about ICE cars being banned from town centres but I'd expect to see electric cars banned as well, they may not cause pollution but they still cause congestion, need space for parking and potentially the risk for accidents as well then there's also the impact to health from physical inactivity. It's not so much I don't want an electric car and more I'm trying to avoid using a car entirely any more.

I think the OP is correct that electric cars over promised and what's evident here and most other places are you're just not allowed to criticise them in any way and anyone who buys an electric car has to be praised and thanked for being so green. Yet e-bikes which are much greener, take up much less space, much less risk to pedestrians and can significantly improve the health of their riders are often demonised instead with general anti-cycling trends and strange comments about it being 'lazy'

I started cycling around ten years ago because I had a turbo diesel car with an early DPF and knew it wasn't good for short trips so decided to get into cycling and stuck with it which has been a huge benefit for me and it helps those around me with no pollution, not taking up space, not needing parking spaces etc. Quite honestly if I had an electric car now I don't think I'd have ever started cycling since I wouldn't have had that same push for it at the start and that would have been a huge mistake.

 

[biko]

The thread seems to have drifted a long way from the original post which wasn't about ICE vs electric cars but about electric cars reducing take up of walking, cycling and public transport:



Someone mentioned a few pages back about ICE cars being banned from town centres but I'd expect to see electric cars banned as well, they may not cause pollution but they still cause congestion, need space for parking and potentially the risk for accidents as well then there's also the impact to health from physical inactivity. It's not so much I don't want an electric car and more I'm trying to avoid using a car entirely any more.

I think the OP is correct that electric cars over promised and what's evident here and most other places are you're just not allowed to criticise them in any way and anyone who buys an electric car has to be praised and thanked for being so green. Yet e-bikes which are much greener, take up much less space, much less risk to pedestrians and can significantly improve the health of their riders are often demonised instead with general anti-cycling trends and strange comments about it being 'lazy'

I started cycling around ten years ago because I had a turbo diesel car with an early DPF and knew it wasn't good for short trips so decided to get into cycling and stuck with it which has been a huge benefit for me and it helps those around me with no pollution, not taking up space, not needing parking spaces etc. Quite honestly if I had an electric car now I don't think I'd have ever started cycling since I wouldn't have had that same push for it at the start and that would have been a huge mistake.

Exactly, I fully agree. Electric cars are seen as the solution to all problems with respect to mobility, but cars are in itself a problem. However, for drivers it is relatively easy to change to an EV, but changing modes and habits is much more difficult and thus conveniently ignored by most.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, I fully agree. Electric cars are seen as the solution to all problems with respect to mobility, but cars are in itself a problem. However, for drivers it is relatively easy to change to an EV, but changing modes and habits is much more difficult and thus conveniently ignored by most.

I'd say "cars can be a problem when used in the wrong context". They are very useful and they neither should nor will go away completely, though switching them to pure electric is the right way to go to remove pollution at the point of use.

City centres are not the place for them, of course.

The Netherlands is maybe a bit different from the UK in this regard, though:

• It's a small country
• Transport demand is a web, and the railway and complementary bus services provide for that
• It's flat, so cycling is easy and pleasurable
• It's mostly built-up and so journeys tend to be short and places where a car is a negative are much more common

I think in many ways the North West of England is like a mini-Netherlands, but obviously the hills limit the usefulness of the traditional bicycle.

 

[Bald Rick]

Caveating what follows with “I live in St Albans”... but ...

I have been out and about walking in the city a lot this last week compared to the last few months, and I have been astonished how many electric cars there are on the road now. Lots of recent Tesla 3, VW ID3, VW ID4, Jag i-Pace, and even a few Kia E-Nero. Then there’s the plug in hybrids - they’re everywhere, especially the BMWs, Volvos and Mercs. I didn’t even know that there was a Rangey Evoque PHEV until one pulled up at the lights as I was walking past last night - and it had its charging ‘flap’ open (which I closed for him).

 

[johncrossley]

I'd say "cars can be a problem when used in the wrong context". They are very useful and they neither should nor will go away completely, though switching them to pure electric is the right way to go to remove pollution at the point of use.

City centres are not the place for them, of course.

The Netherlands is maybe a bit different from the UK in this regard, though:

• It's a small country
• Transport demand is a web, and the railway and complementary bus services provide for that
• It's flat, so cycling is easy and pleasurable
• It's mostly built-up and so journeys tend to be short and places where a car is a negative are much more common

I think in many ways the North West of England is like a mini-Netherlands, but obviously the hills limit the usefulness of the traditional bicycle.

Hills in many English towns are not so severe to prevent someone of average fitness to make a short journey of 1-2 miles, the kind of journey the Dutch typically do on their heavy bikes. In any case, hills can be overcome by electric bikes, but bizarrely they are far more popular in the Netherlands where they don't really need them!

I wonder if the differences between England (in particular) and the Netherlands are exaggerated (mostly by people who like things to stay they way they are). Vast regions of England are heavily urbanised and British towns are compact. They were mostly built before the age of car dependence so are dominated by narrow roads and terraced or semi-detached housing. It is nothing like the US where even poor people live in detached houses with large gaps between houses.

I've actually heard Dutch people justify the need for road building in the Netherlands because they don't have a huge city like London where it is easy to justify rail construction and where car usage is impractical. The Netherlands may be urbanised, but the vast majority of people live in small to medium sized towns near a motorway or main road, meaning that almost all trips between towns can be carried out by car with relative ease. There are nearly always gaps between towns, meaning there is space available to fit in new roads. And they've built and widened a lot of roads in the last decade.

 

[paul1609]

Caveating what follows with “I live in St Albans”... but ...

I have been out and about walking in the city a lot this last week compared to the last few months, and I have been astonished how many electric cars there are on the road now. Lots of recent Tesla 3, VW ID3, VW ID4, Jag i-Pace, and even a few Kia E-Nero. Then there’s the plug in hybrids - they’re everywhere, especially the BMWs, Volvos and Mercs. I didn’t even know that there was a Rangey Evoque PHEV until one pulled up at the lights as I was walking past last night - and it had its charging ‘flap’ open (which I closed for him)

The 2.0L Range Rover PHEV does 105 mpg for British benefit in kind calculations. According to the US EPA the car actually does a combined city and out of town us mpg of 19 once the 22 battery miles have been used up. Thats 23 uk mpg and is going to really improve the environment on the St Albans Network Rail Executives school run

 

[The Lad]

But the school run could be all electric if it had been plugged in.
In my day, dad needed the car for work, we walked.

 

[Domh245]

The 2.0L Range Rover PHEV does 105 mpg for British benefit in kind calculations. According to the US EPA the car actually does a combined city and out of town us mpg of 19 once the 22 battery miles have been used up. Thats 23 uk mpg and is going to really improve the environment on the St Albans Network Rail Executives school run

The Evoque Hybrid (1.5L 3 cylinder up front, with an electric rear axle) manages a notional 141mpg, and 34miles on EV (using WLTP), so unless the school run is in excess of 30 odd miles (which would put the school on the outskirts of Stevenage or Edgware) it is a significant improvement to air quality if used correctly vs the usual oil-burning lumps that would otherwise be preferred.

 

[ABB125]

The Evoque Hybrid (1.5L 3 cylinder up front, with an electric rear axle) manages a notional 141mpg, and 34miles on EV (using WLTP),

That engine doesn't nearly sound big enough for a large vehicle! Is it turbocharged?

so unless the school run is in excess of 30 odd miles (which would put the school on the outskirts of Stevenage or Edgware)

Eton's a bit further, unfortunately!

It is a significant improvement to air quality if used correctly vs the usual oil-burning lumps that would otherwise be preferred.

Agreed!

 

[Bald Rick]

The 2.0L Range Rover PHEV does 105 mpg for British benefit in kind calculations. According to the US EPA the car actually does a combined city and out of town us mpg of 19 once the 22 battery miles have been used up. Thats 23 uk mpg and is going to really improve the environment on the St Albans Network Rail Executives school run

As others have said, it’s rather better than that. I can’t imagine that a 1.5l engine does 23mpg. Unfortunately I don’t have one, but fortunately I don’t do a school run either. (Nor am I executive!)

That engine doesn't nearly sound big enough for a large vehicle! Is it turbocharged?

At 197bhp it must be! (304bhp with the electric motor, 0-60 in 6.1)