Have the goal posts moved a lot?

[elementalpat]

oi! What's wrong with being a conductor at Southern? Doesn't get more glamorous!

Whoops! I hope you are not in charge of that assessment day!

 

[mac]

The reason it's hard is because a truck or coach can stop within around 200 metres at top speed - which will only be 56 or 62 mph respectively and those speeds are only allowed on motorways. A train - even one that 'only' does 90 mph will take a mile to stop, so a driver must have superb concentration skills and route knowledge. Miss a junction on the M1 go to the next one and come back. Easy.

Do you not concentrate?yes they have route knowlege but it only for that line unlike you who has to no all roads.They do have help when driving such as signals so nobody else on the line unlike the roads.The money and hours are down to the unions not the job being hard.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Do you not concentrate?yes they have route knowlege but it only for that line unlike you who has to no all roads.They do have help when driving such as signals so nobody else on the line unlike the roads.The money and hours are down to the unions not the job being hard.

I doubt truck/coach drivers have to know the routes, most of them will have Satnav nowadays!

 

[mac]

yes they will have sat nav but you still have to no were your going because of low bridges and the like,unlike train drivers who stay on the same bit of controlled track every day.

 

[driver9000]

Dave A most of what you put is so true,I dont want to be a driver although i no i could do it,25 years ago i would have been given the job just because of who i knew.The TOC's now want people from uni who apply just for the money and are given the jobs by people from uni who have no idea about the job you only have to look how they decribe some jobs. Most driving jobs are a lottery and only one can win it will be intresting to see how many stay when the job market picks up and they can do a 9-5 job for the same money.

False. I am not from a university background and neither are many of my colleagues. The managers that interview for the vacancies at my depot are all ex BR drivers with years of experience behind them. The managers I have met from other depots are also mainly ex BR drivers without university background. I really wonder where this myth began but from my own experience it is false. Many of my colleagues at my depot, and drivers for other TOCs that I know, are ex military and a surprising number have driven buses and coaches - myself included. A small handful of the drivers I know have been to university but most haven't (granted I can only account for the area I cover). A lot of the drivers I know have been driving for more than 10 years so I can't see them bailing out to a 9-5 when the market picks up again, I would say the same for more recent entrants too. Driver retention is generally good in that those who enter the grade tend to stay and those that leave go to another TOC to drive.

As for having been able to walk into the job 25 years ago because of who you know, I think I'd rather have the present system to be honest. At least today all those are sent for the tests have the chance to prove they have the aptitude to do the job - despite how "fair" some may think they are instead of having Uncle Bert being the Traction inspector at the local depot handing out jobs to drivers sons. When I applied for driving I knew nobody on the railways and I passed the test and earned my keys through putting the time in learn about the grade and study what was needed. I didn't fall into the job at all, I spent a long time being knocked back by various TOCs for various jobs and maybe I was lucky to be taken on aged 22. Nepotism can only exist to a small extent today, the tests are the barrier to you getting to the next stage as only you can pass or fail them. Your Dad can't sit them for you.

I wanted to be a train driver since I was a small boy and I spent a long time researching everything I could about how the railways worked and what train driving involved, I was prepared to work up from the bottom but the cab door was opened before I became old enough to apply and I am grateful that it did as it meant I could achieve my ambition quicker. I love my job and I love working on the railway. I may be driving local trains but my route and traction card is varied enough to keep me going, I have around 250 miles of railway to play with and I'm quite happy trundling around the countryside and then heading into the cities or shunting stock around. Personally I think I'd get bored driving express long distance trains. There seems to be a perception sometimes that you only have to spout a few buzz words about the interview and then press a few buttons a computer to get a handshake and a master key. The way I see it is that it just isn't like that. The inerview panels can sniff out the ones who haven't bothered to find out about the role they've applied for - that goes for any industry. Will I still be here when I'm 60? I hope so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yes they will have sat nav but you still have to no were your going because of low bridges and the like,unlike train drivers who stay on the same bit of controlled track every day.

A train driver has to learn, sit an exam and then sign to say that they know every inch and detail of the lines they work over. That isn't the case for coach and lorry driving. When I drove coaches, I could drive a coach to anywhere I wished to or my bosses told me to without having to learn the way prior to setting out. I can't drive a train to London because I haven't the faintest idea about that route. You mention that your Dad was train driver so I would have thought you would have an idea to route knowledge at the very least. I do think you have an incredibly simplistic view of what driving a train entails.

 

[mac]

How did all them ex br drivers get there jobs?could they do the tests now needed to become a driver.I didn't say all drivers would leave but some uni one's will because they think they are to good to work outside a office.

The tests don't prove you have the aptitude to do the job they prove you can pass the test.

What happens if you go though a red light like alot of highley trained drivers do?

You cannot drive a train anywhere so you are limited to what you can do unlike the coach driver who as to no everything

 

[notadriver]

Coach drivers don't know everything but many like to *think they do*. Remember a car driver can pay for and take a weeks crash course in coach driving and apart from the new drivers CPC which isn't something you can fail - that's it. Train drivers need 9-18 months.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it really necessary to put other people's professions down? I thought this thread was discussing train drivers...

 

[mac]

And as i put before after 18 months training they still go though red lights why? Coach drivers can drive after 1 weeks training but they still have to no where they are going with a coach full of passenges in citys where they have never been before not like a train driver who only follows the controled line in front.

 

[driver9000]

A coach driver has the same freedom to go where they please as a car driver without formal route knowledge. You can drive a coach somewhere without the slightest inclination to direction or obstruction. I've driven coaches. I'm not putting coach drivers or lorry drivers down, I'm trying put across the differences between road and rail. Maybe I'm putting it badly.

The ex BR men most likely applied for their jobs straight from school. Depending on when they started th ey will have started as Secondmen/Drivers assistant or Traction trainee. How did your Dad get his?

What does a red light or its consequences have to do with getting a job on the railway? Do coach drivers not go through red lights?

 

[mac]

A coach driver has the same freedom to go where they please without formal route knowledge. You can drive a coach somewhere without the slightest inclination to direction or obstruction. I've driven coaches. I'm not putting coach drivers or lorry drivers down, I'm trying put across the differences between road and rail. Maybe I'm putting it badly.

The ex BR men most likely applied for their jobs straight from school depending on when they started. How did your Dad get his?

What does a red light or its consequences have to do with getting a job on the railway? Do coach drivers not go through red lights?

Me to they all drive but all treated diffenent.

The ex BR men got there jobs straight from school no tests but they did the job and are still there .

The red light means they have all that training but still go though red lights so needed help to stop train(forgotten the name of it).

 

[driver9000]

Secondmanning etc was a form of apprenticeship if you like, their ability to perform on the footplate would have become apparent during that time. I believe it was 500 turns before being considered for driver. Since that grade was abolished there had to be another way of vetting prospective drivers.

Maybe I'm having a brain freeze but I'm failing to see the relevance of the red light analogy. Are mistakes not permitted following training? After all coach drivers are professionals too yet they make mistakes. I think we have digressed way off the original topic.

 

[notadriver]

Is it really necessary to put other people's professions down? I thought this thread was discussing train drivers...

You're right; it's just I was the only English speaker at the company i used to drive coaches for and they were London based

 

[90019]

and apart from the new drivers CPC which isn't something you can fail - that's it.

The Initial CPC can be failed.

I've driven coaches. I'm not putting coach drivers or lorry drivers down, I'm trying put across the differences between road and rail.

From what I can see, I wouldn't really say they're comparable because train driving involves different skills to driving a bus or truck.

 

[TDK]

I think there is some trolling going on here - and Mac you need to check your grammar and spelling - I think driving a train is easier than driving a car however the consequences of loosing concentration whilst driving a car or truck are not as serious as in a train. I drive trains, and have route knowledge past and present for probaly 1/4 of the country. The only difference as previously mentioned is the pre empting you need to do when driving a train, from 100mph you are braking initially from about a mile and a half away and you need to stop your train within inches from this speed with only usually a 3 step brake and not a continuous brake.

I think Mac is trolling though

 

[Rugd1022]

Mac - you come across as being very pre-occupied with drivers passing red signals, I'm not really sure why but that's how some of your posts are coming across.

Drivers passing red signals can happen for several differtent reasons, not all of which are in fact the fault of the driver, here are a couple examples which are out of our control...

* Signalman putting the signal back to danger as a train approaches

* signal going back to danger when another driver on an adjacent line has become derailed / had an incident... he will automatically put track circuit clips down to protect his train

There are numerous others, but hopefully, you'll get my drift.... if you are in any doubt, just ask your Dad.

 

[BestWestern]

I think driving a train is easier than driving a car however the consequences of losing concentration whilst driving a car or truck are not as serious as in a train.

Thank you for managing to post a sensible and balanced comment in the midst of the childish 'train drivers vs any other drivers' ego contest we so frequently see on here :roll: Of course, even that comment is subjective, I'd imagine most train drivers would rather SPAD and stop than kill somebody in their car....

Driving any vehicle, be it a bus, a train or a Ford Fiesta, requires skill and concentration. There is a plethora of rules and regulations which a train driver must know and obey, some degree of technical familiarity with different types of train, and, hopefully, the right mindset to cope with an emergency situation and those involved in it.

What a PCV or LGV driver has to do is navigate a road vehicle far, far larger than most motorists will ever drive, and firmly outside the abilities of many, through crowded roads against a backdrop of endless moving hazards, many of them totally ignorant to the needs and requirements of your situation and presence on the road. How often does a member of the public take one look at an approaching train and think "bugger you b*stard, I want to cross the line...." and expect it to scream to a halt for them, for example?!

There are obvious differences in the skills and abilities needed to drive trains and to drive large road vehicles, though both require the gift of being generally being pretty switched on. It is fair to say without any doubt that drivers of PCV/LGV class vehicles are underpaid, and it's also true that train drivers are paid exceptionally well. As a qualified and experienced PCV driver now on the railways, I do take a dislike to those drivers who appear to feel that they are the elite of society; it's not brain surgery, there are many who could do the job without stifling difficulty. But nevertheless, it's a very good job and one that brings with it considerable responsibility. Best of luck to those who aim for it.

 

[313103]

Well, applied for a Conductor role for Southern now. Not exactly the most glamourous role around, but I should learn a lot about the industry if I get in. Maybe even bump into Dave A at the Vic!

Cheers for thinking that the Conductors role is less glamorous. What made you come to that conclusion? Was this based on Money? Was this based on perceptions? Or based on that you think the Conductors role is not a worthy role for someone as clever as you?

I am very happy to be a Conductor, my role has its lively moments and is less boring then driving. I may of joined the railways to be a driver, but in 2011 i wouldnt want to be a driver nowadays, work is mundane and as has already been mentioned quite boring, and the fact that the art of driving has been taken away by computers and the suchlike. Gone are the days where a driver earned his keep my managing not to snatch 50 - 80 wagons with just the engine and a brake van for braking.

 

[notadriver]

Thank you for managing to post a sensible and balanced comment in the midst of the childish 'train drivers vs any other drivers' ego contest we so frequently see on here :roll: Of course, even that comment is subjective, I'd imagine most train drivers would rather SPAD and stop than kill somebody in their car....

Driving any vehicle, be it a bus, a train or a Ford Fiesta, requires skill and concentration. There is a plethora of rules and regulations which a train driver must know and obey, some degree of technical familiarity with different types of train, and, hopefully, the right mindset to cope with an emergency situation and those involved in it.

What a PCV or LGV driver has to do is navigate a road vehicle far, far larger than most motorists will ever drive, and firmly outside the abilities of many, through crowded roads against a backdrop of endless moving hazards, many of them totally ignorant to the needs and requirements of your situation and presence on the road. How often does a member of the public take one look at an approaching train and think "bugger you b*stard, I want to cross the line...." and expect it to scream to a halt for them, for example?!

There are obvious differences in the skills and abilities needed to drive trains and to drive large road vehicles, though both require the gift of being generally being pretty switched on. It is fair to say without any doubt that drivers of PCV/LGV class vehicles are underpaid, and it's also true that train drivers are paid exceptionally well. As a qualified and experienced PCV driver now on the railways, I do take a dislike to those drivers who appear to feel that they are the elite of society; it's not brain surgery, there are many who could do the job without stifling difficulty. But nevertheless, it's a very good job and one that brings with it considerable responsibility. Best of luck to those who aim for it.

Thank you for posting this equally balanced comment. Its clear you have a wealth of experience both driving buses and trains and are therefore able to give an insiders view.

 

[Talbot]

I think there is some trolling going on here - and Mac you need to check your grammar and spelling - I think driving a train is easier than driving a car however the consequences of [U]loosing[/U] concentration whilst driving a car or truck are not as serious as in a train. I drive trains, and have route knowledge past and present for probaly 1/4 of the country. The only difference as previously mentioned is the pre empting you need to do when driving a train, from 100mph you are braking initially from about a mile and a half away and you need to stop your train within inches from this speed with only usually a 3 step brake and not a continuous brake.

I think Mac is trolling though

Hmm, grammar and spelling ?.

 

[Minilad]

I have also been both a bus and train driver.
I drove buses for London Transport from 86 till 89 and West Midlands Travel from 89 till 97. I started train driving in 2001.
Both jobs I enjoyed / enjoy immensely. And both have their challenges.
When the sun is shining and the signals are green or the roads are clear it all seems oh so routine. I wouldn't say boring as such as there is always something to concentrate on. Its when things go wrong that the jobs start to differ. In a bus you would just sit in traffic or radio for the fitter to attend if you had mechanical problems. We were not trained or required to attempt to fix the vehicle or given any training to do so. So I would say when things go wrong on a train it is then that a well trained and motivated driver can really come into his / her own. On the other hand (for me anyway) you get to interact with the lovely general public far more with bus driving. And of course that isn't always a bed of roses. I can imagine in the age we are living in bus drivers do come across more undesirables than I did.
With regards to train driving I am subjected to much more scrutiny than I ever was as a bus driver. Constant assessments and rules exams, safety briefs and briefings on routes / traction. As a bus driver I didn't even have to 'sign' a route. Just given a couple of days to learn it then away I went. Traction training as such consisted of a quick spin up and down a few roads and told where the fuel cut of switch was and that was it.
I would never suggest either is better than the other. They both have the good points and the bad. I enjoyed my time as a bus driver and I am enjoying my time as a train driver.
One thing I would say though is I definitely believe my time and experience as a bus driver helped me immensely when applying for my train driving job.

 

[mac]

Thank you for managing to post a sensible and balanced comment in the midst of the childish 'train drivers vs any other drivers' ego contest we so frequently see on here :roll: Of course, even that comment is subjective, I'd imagine most train drivers would rather SPAD and stop than kill somebody in their car....

Driving any vehicle, be it a bus, a train or a Ford Fiesta, requires skill and concentration. There is a plethora of rules and regulations which a train driver must know and obey, some degree of technical familiarity with different types of train, and, hopefully, the right mindset to cope with an emergency situation and those involved in it.

What a PCV or LGV driver has to do is navigate a road vehicle far, far larger than most motorists will ever drive, and firmly outside the abilities of many, through crowded roads against a backdrop of endless moving hazards, many of them totally ignorant to the needs and requirements of your situation and presence on the road. How often does a member of the public take one look at an approaching train and think "bugger you b*stard, I want to cross the line...." and expect it to scream to a halt for them, for example?!

There are obvious differences in the skills and abilities needed to drive trains and to drive large road vehicles, though both require the gift of being generally being pretty switched on. It is fair to say without any doubt that drivers of PCV/LGV class vehicles are underpaid, and it's also true that train drivers are paid exceptionally well. As a qualified and experienced PCV driver now on the railways, I do take a dislike to those drivers who appear to feel that they are the elite of society; it's not brain surgery, there are many who could do the job without stifling difficulty. But nevertheless, it's a very good job and one that brings with it considerable responsibility. Best of luck to those who aim for it.[/QUOTE

Most of that is what i was trying to say,but also you can have driverless trains but not coachs or trucks

 

[Minilad]

Most of that is what i was trying to say,but also you can have driverless trains but not coachs or trucks

Mac. Have you ever told your dad about your apparent disdain for the skills of train drivers. I am sure he would be very interested in what you have to say

 

[mac]

Mac. Have you ever told your dad about your apparent disdain for the skills of train drivers. I am sure he would be very interested in what you have to say

Bit hard to tell him he's been dead for 8 years.He used to say the same thing and wanted me to follow him.From about the age of 5 to 15 i used to ride with him so do no what goes on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Bit hard to tell him he's been dead for 8 years.He used to say the same thing and wanted me to follow him.From about the age of 5 to 15 i used to ride with him so do no what goes on.

You've ridden with him, so obviously you know exactly what the job is like, how to do it, and how difficult it is?

Some of the people on this thread are real drivers. You know, they do it for a living. I don't. Therefore I'm more inclined to believe what they say than you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm, grammar and spelling ?.

You appear to have a misplaced space between the end of your question and your question mark as well as an unnecessary full stop.

But hey, we're not picky!

 

[mac]

But that's what im getting at it's not that difficult,you learn a route and stay there you might be a truck driver and be told monday morning you are going hull to alicanti but with train driving it's hull to doncaster.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But that's what im getting at it's not that difficult,you learn a route and stay there you might be a truck driver and be told monday morning you are going hull to alicanti but with train driving it's hull to doncaster.

However driving a truck you do not have to know the location of every set of traffic lights, all the possible indications at those lights (filter lanes etc) and have to know all the speed limits on your route, as well as remembering where a limit may have been reduced for work.

Driving on the road and driving on the railway is incomparable. They both require different skills.

 

[Minilad]

But that's what im getting at it's not that difficult,you learn a route and stay there you might be a truck driver and be told monday morning you are going hull to alicanti but with train driving it's hull to doncaster.

To be honest mac you really are comparing eggs with oranges here.

 

[Rugd1022]

But that's what im getting at it's not that difficult,you learn a route and stay there you might be a truck driver and be told monday morning you are going hull to alicanti but with train driving it's hull to doncaster.

Not quite Mac... we don't all just learn one route and stick to it. My route card is quite extensive and covers the WCML from Willesden to Crewe via the West Mids and Trent Valley routes, including all of the freight only and diversionary lines around Birmingham, also from there down to Stourbridge, Worcester, Cheltenham and Gloucester, plus the Brum to Didcot line, plus from Aynho Junction to Old Oak Common and the Greenford Loop to West Ealing, from Brum to Leicester, the MML from Cricklewood to Mountsorrel, Cricklewood to Neasden and Acton Mainline, and Bletchley to Bedford.... my point being it isn't just about what we do, it's about the knowledge we have to retain and act on. With respect, it is a lot more than most bus drivers have and I sincerely don't mean that in an egotistical way at all.... it's not a p*ss*ng contest either, I'm just stating facts.

I'd dearly love to be allowed to have you along in the cab for a few weeks so can see what it really entails these days, with all the variety of work we cover and the problems we have to deal with, but alas it's not allowed these days. I'm not saying it's 'hard', just that there is far more too it than just pressing buttons and pulling levers as so many people seem to think. In my time on the footplate I've dealt with tresspassers, objects placed on the line, sheep and cattle on the line, I've had bricks, bicycles and lumps of concrete thrown at me from bridges, a fatality, a minor derailment, put out fires, failed in remote places, assisted other failed trains, dealt with irate passengers whilst travelling to jobs in uniform (nowt to do with me, I'm a freight man!), and many other such things.

 

[notadriver]

Total respect to freight drivers !!!