Have TPE finally given up on the Scarborough service

[Smidster]

I feel for anyone wanting to go from Liverpool to York tonight

Every sing service from 19:25 onwards cancelled and as noted above the advice is to "get the next one" - about Tuesday at this rate.

I need to get across the Pennines tomorrow afternoon...at least I fully expect to get my money back and won't be in a dramatic hurry.

 

[scarby]

I hope FirstGroup/TPE goes bankrupt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope FirstGroup/TPE goes bankrupt.

Given that we now have 3 TOCs (possibly 4 if you count ScotRail) suffering these kinds of problems - and DOO strikes aside, the situation on TPE seems rather worse than LNR, which itself is pretty awful[1] - might there be an element of the DaFT paymasters demanding too much?

All 3 (4?) of the TOCs could presumably improve the situation by timetable lopping/simplification but presumably can't?

[1] LNR are at least not cancelling very much, it's just woefully unpunctual.

 

[BeHereNow]

It's not DfT demanding too much. It's the TOC trying to train staff for the ECML/WCML revenue raiding, that they are on the hook for to Group.

 

[gazzaa2]

I had a bit of a nightmare getting back from Huddefield to Liverpool last night. Got the 19.24 which for some reason was terminated at Manchester Victoria "due to a fault with the train"!

I looked on National Rail journey planner and it hadn't even reached York and it was already showing as terminating at Victoria due to this mystery "fault". The "fault" couldn't have been that serious if the train, which was a 185, was still running, could it!?

I had no choice but to get this train because my back up plan, the 19.52 to Liverpool, was already cancelled!

Got to Victoria 8 minutes late then decided to go for a couple of pints before getting the 22.08 Northern service from Piccadilly. This was a service from the airport and guess what turned up, 2 carriage 195 002 which I had actually got from S Parkway to Piccadilly in the morning. 2 carriages on a Friday evening, going to Liverpool; yes, you guessed it, rammed in like a tin of sardines!

Between the two of them, TPE and Northern couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery!

I got a 2 car Airport to South Parkway service last night that was 2 car and I just about managed to get on at Warrington. 2 cars, absolute joke and I think the one before had been cancelled. The guard said the carriage problem was the new trains are always breaking down.

LNR, TPE and Northern between them have made train service in the north/midlands borderline unusable.

 

[Foxcover]

What is the regulator or whoever has the contract with TPE doing about this? I do not want to hear excuses about lack of staff, fault of others etc. there is a timetabled service that should run. People need to get their finger out and sort it or find a way of providing a reliable service jointly provided between TPE and Northern even if it means joint ticket acceptance or whatever. OK I guessed it, no provision in the contract for this sort of thing...…………………. Are people affected complaining to the powers that be and what are they being told in response?

I’d been thinking along the same lines - after numerous let-downs with the infamous 0709 from Lime St to Oxford Road, and countless hours spent waiting at Victoria for a TPE back to Lime St since the summer, my family now refuse to go by train to Manchester (from Liverpool)! They relented yesterday for a planned visit to the Christmas Markets, given the prospect of the ‘Black Friday’ weekend road traffic, but when I saw both the TPE and the Northern services falling apart *again* yesterday morning, to what I agree seem like record levels, I confessed to the family it wasn’t going to work and we’ll go by car another week.

Could something be done with advance fares - which really end up limiting passenger choices and causing stress/confusion when this sort of thing happens and ticket acceptance isn’t arranged - and which to be honest are pretty meaningless on the shorter journeys on this route, as I think has been said before here - ie withdraw permission for TPE and Northern to sell advances when the combined service dips below a certain level for a quarter- which would have a direct revenue impact to them?

Or at least insist on complete automatic ticket acceptance between Northern and TPE when there is any service disruption at all - they are as bad as each other, it isn’t just the infrastructure, and it would at least be ‘knock for knock’ as the insurance industry would call it.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's not DfT demanding too much. It's the TOC trying to train staff for the ECML/WCML revenue raiding, that they are on the hook for to Group.

I would agree. Is Newcastle - Edinburgh needed? Is it needed ahead of having the rest of the network running reliably? Nope but the orcats is more important. I suspect that Scarborough will improve dramatically start running.

northern are not starting this service until they have resources. TPE are going ahead with Liverpool and Edinburgh.

 

[scarby]

What is the regulator or whoever has the contract with TPE doing about this? I do not want to hear excuses about lack of staff, fault of others etc. there is a timetabled service that should run. People need to get their finger out and sort it...

Spot on. To me this is the most annoying aspect - there is zero evidence of a proactive approach, “What can we do to help the passengers here?” - instead just cancelled services and “catch the next one.”

I’d rather have a 99.9% reliable service every 2 hours between Scarborough and York, as a short-term emergency measure, than a lottery as to whether a train will run. Cancellations are the absolute worst scenario for passengers as not only is your time wasted but they can ruin one’s plans/intentions for the day. You can’t plan for a cancellation. But you can plan for an infrequent, but reliable, service.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I think at the Liverpool end yesterday we had a total of 13 TP departures cancelled as well as lots of late running. I noticed the 11:56 and 12:56 were both off, an 802 rolled in half an hour late to form the 12:25 to Newcastle, loaded up full and bursting with 3 train loads worth of passengers and luggage. Then everyone told to get off and then that was cancelled. To help matters the 12:16 Northern service was also cancelled.

Lots of disappointed/annoyed/unimpressed punters. I wonder when their next train journey will be with this sort of experience?

 

[2L70]

I would agree. Is Newcastle - Edinburgh needed? Is it needed ahead of having the rest of the network running reliably? Nope but the orcats is more important.

As it was with the addition and dumping of MIA - BPN, extra stops on the LDS -MAN route, more stops at Habrough on south route when previously not interested...

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit, I am a massive critic of GTR. But they have recovered now. Not delivering what was promised in May 2018 but they have taken the view stabilise the service first. Add more trains to the core later. I am frustrated we don’t get the direct trains promised yet.

TPE seem to be walking into an even bigger problem. Things are bad now. They will be much worse in December. Anyone know why they are pressing ahead with the new services when they can’t run what they have got. Yes ORCATs is important. But eventually someone will start taking enforcement action against them. Especially when they are seen to take ORCATs ahead of the core franchise. GTR are not getting any flak for not delivering the full 2018 timetable. Surely their customers in Scarborough would be livid if they get less trains and they are happily running to Edinburgh.

 

[gazzaa2]

I would agree. Is Newcastle - Edinburgh needed? Is it needed ahead of having the rest of the network running reliably? Nope but the orcats is more important. I suspect that Scarborough will improve dramatically start running.

northern are not starting this service until they have resources. TPE are going ahead with Liverpool and Edinburgh.

Smacks a bit of LNR extending Liverpool-Birmingham to Euston. It'll guarantee a full train but more scope for delays and cancellations ergo can worsen the existing service.

If i'm travelling Liverpool-Edinburgh i'll still go via Warrington or Wigan on the WCML, for a 3 hour train, rather than a 4 and a half hour train on an unreliable route with extremely busy station stops (Manchester/Leeds/York/Newcastle) and most of all a very unreliable train operator.

 

[Glenn1969]

Isn't TPE running to Edinburgh a franchise commitment that may have been insisted on by DaFT?

 

[Foxcover]

I think at the Liverpool end yesterday we had a total of 13 TP departures cancelled as well as lots of late running. I noticed the 11:56 and 12:56 were both off, an 802 rolled in half an hour late to form the 12:25 to Newcastle, loaded up full and bursting with 3 train loads worth of passengers and luggage. Then everyone told to get off and then that was cancelled. To help matters the 12:16 Northern service was also cancelled.

Lots of disappointed/annoyed/unimpressed punters. I wonder when their next train journey will be with this sort of experience?

For most of them they will probably avoid the train in future. Like the people at Manchester Victoria last night, for whom TPE successively cancelled the 1824, 1855, 1924, 2024 and 2124 fasts to Liverpool, all but one due to train crew per RTT. In fact the only service they ran to Liverpool out of Victoria after the 1755 was the 1955, for the whole Saturday evening.

They do deserve sanctions based on last night but more seriously people will take a long time to forget that sort of service decision and will simply increasingly choose the car - it will really damage the franchise, the reputation of what are some really good new trains, and makes all the Nova marketing out there now pretty pointless.

 

[Failed Unit]

Isn't TPE running to Edinburgh a franchise commitment that may have been insisted on by DaFT?

Maybe it is. But so is 24tph on Thameslink. If it is not deliverable it should wait. (Just like Thamelink). I doubt Edinburgh was on the base spec. It make no sense apart from ORCATs. The only places really benefiting are Morpeth and Huddersfield. All other stations have direct services with existing operators.

 

[BeHereNow]

Isn't TPE running to Edinburgh a franchise commitment that may have been insisted on by DaFT?

Only because they bid it, the invitation to tender didn't require it. It's a big chunk of revenue straight out of Cross-country /LNER pockets as soon as they start running them.

 

[Glenn1969]

It will also ease pressure on XC at Leeds. I have always thought an hourly service from Leeds to Scotland to be insufficient

 

[Glenn1969]

Meanwhile back on topic

So far only the 1041 is cancelled at Scarborough today. Hope no more follow it

 

[2L70]

For most of them they will probably avoid the train in future. Like the people at Manchester Victoria last night, for whom TPE successively cancelled the 1824, 1855, 1924, 2024 and 2124 fasts to Liverpool, all but one due to train crew per RTT. In fact the only service they ran to Liverpool out of Victoria after the 1755 was the 1955, for the whole Saturday evening.

This is the problem with the Barton on Humber branch last 10 years, it has the potiental to be profitable - Barton as a Town is rapidly expanding - but when TPE are short staffed the Barton Service is first to go vice the mainline, and they’re dragging the heels over a potiental transfer to EMR.

 

[Meerkat]

This is the problem with the Barton on Humber branch last 10 years, it has the potiental to be profitable - Barton as a Town is rapidly expanding - but when TPE are short staffed the Barton Service is first to go vice the mainline, and they’re dragging the heels over a potiental transfer to EMR.

Barton is barely a town! And surely they want to go to Hull more than Grimsby. I can’t see how it could ever be profitable, it would probably be closed in a sensible world.

 

[northernchris]

Yesterday was appalling on north TPE. With all the cancellations and delays the crowds weren't clearing, so the services that were running were unable to take on all waiting passengers. As usual the TPE 'customer service' staff at Leeds were invisible leaving it to both Network Rail and their security staff to deal with the fallout of First's mismanagement.

 

[_toommm_]

Yesterday was appalling on north TPE. With all the cancellations and delays the crowds weren't clearing, so the services that were running were unable to take on all waiting passengers. As usual the TPE 'customer service' staff at Leeds were invisible leaving it to both Network Rail and their security staff to deal with the fallout of First's mismanagement.

I thought TPE only has Dispatch staff at Leeds?

 

[northernchris]

I thought TPE only has Dispatch staff at Leeds?

Yep, they're the ones. But as their hi-vis states something on the lines of happy to help, they presumably have some customer service training (although they seem to spend most of their time either hiding away or shouting)

 

[Matt_pool]

The next 3 weekends up to Xmas will be very testing for both TPE and Northern.

People trying to go back and forth between Liverpool and Manchester for the Xmas markets and shopping, plus between Leeds and York etc; and students and everyone else trying to get home for Xmas.

Another few weekends of cancellations and delays with TPE, and Northern sticking on brand new, 2 carriage 195's that we all know should be 4 carriages minimum - it's going to be chaos!

Oh, and if what I've heard is correct, the new timetable change on 15th December will see Northern replacing all it's 156's with not fit for purpose 150's on the Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road services!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, and if what I've heard is correct, the new timetable change on 15th December will see Northern replacing all it's 156's with not fit for purpose 150's on the Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road services!

Replied here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ool-manchester-o-rd-stopping-services.196017/

 

[Skipness]

MODERATOR:- Please can you arrange for an official response from TPE to comment on the number of cancellations passengers have had to endure recently.

 

[2L70]

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09111801/officers

I would guess most of these have a .firstgroup.com email address, if anyone wants to have a go at contacting them.

 

[yorkie]

MODERATOR:- Please can you arrange for an official response from TPE to comment on the number of cancellations passengers have had to endure recently.

This is not within the remit of forum moderators.

Also the only ways to contact forum moderators are to contact us directly, for example by using the report button on a post that is causing concern, or by using the 'Contact Us' form (at the bottom of each page), please do not attempt to contact moderators by posting in threads, thanks

 

[Alan2603]

My dear mother-in-law got caught up in the disruption at York on Saturday whilst trying to get home to Scarborough.

She could have stayed another night in York, but was told that despite the disruption, that there was no ticket acceptance for the following day (she was on a First class advance ticket for a specific train on Saturday which was one of the many cancelled). I know in times of disruption, companies such as LNER etc advise that tickets are valid the following day, so find it difficult to believe that TPE don't offer the same type of thing (or is it that there is so much disruption everyday so it would continue ad-infinitum)?.

In the end she actually gave up waiting for a never-appearing train, so went outside the station and caught a Scarborough bound Coastliner bus (she is well over 65 so used her free pass). I agree catching the bus was her own choice, but it rather grates that she spent money on an Advance ticket that I gather is not refundable and waited over 2 hours for a non-existent train. She could not use the ticket the following day despite all the disruption and TPE are in effect good to the value of her ticket, without even conveying her.

Sorry if it is a bit of a rant, but the service on Saturday was apparently diabolical and an 80 year old lady had a rather uncomfortable bus ride back to Scarborough on as packed bus rather than the first class she had actually paid for.

I thought that train companies were obliged to offer ticket acceptance the following day in times of severe disruption? However, it seems this doesn’t apply to TPE!

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree catching the bus was her own choice, but it rather grates that she spent money on an Advance ticket that I gather is not refundable and waited over 2 hours for a non-existent train. She could not use the ticket the following day despite all the disruption and TPE are in effect good to the value of her ticket, without even conveying her.

As there was disruption and she chose not to travel (well not use her ticket anyway) she is entitled to a full refund of the ticket despite APs usually being non-refundable.