Have we reached Peak Preservation?

[LSWR Cavalier]

Could be a golden age for coach restoration and construction. Understandably steam engines are the great attraction but most of the time one sits in a carriage, and there are enough (too many?) engines now
Compartments could be a big draw because they are unfamiliar on the main line

 

[Bletchleyite]

So do I, initially - the question is, for how long. In 30 years Mk1s will be 90 years old, and Mk2/a/b/c 80; anything newer will be a/c stock which adds disproportionate complications for a 25mph heritage railway.

You can always retrofit opening windows, the ex-Virgin WC aircon Mk2s had opening windows retrofitted, and Irish Mk3s had them. Axle generators to power 12 or 24V based LED lighting wouldn't be that hard either.

Controlled-emission toilets might be an issue, but you could retrofit with a simple alternative such as cassette chemical toilets.

FWIW I would be surprised if at least one railway didn't end up converting 156s to hauled coaches.

 

[43096]

You can always retrofit opening windows, the ex-Virgin WC aircon Mk2s had opening windows retrofitted, and Irish Mk3s had them. Axle generators to power 12 or 24V based LED lighting wouldn't be that hard either.

Controlled-emission toilets might be an issue, but you could retrofit with a simple alternative such as cassette chemical toilets.

FWIW I would be surprised if at least one railway didn't end up converting 156s to hauled coaches.

What's your plan for heating?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's your plan for heating?

Retrofit steam heat? Most preserved locos support it.

Electric storage heating, with the coaches plugged in overnight before use?

Fit individual Webasto diesel heaters to each coach like electric buses (ironically) use?

 

[43096]

Retrofit steam heat? Most preserved locos support it.

Electric storage heating, with the coaches plugged in overnight before use?

Fit individual Webasto diesel heaters to each coach like electric buses (ironically) use?

That's just one of the funniest things I've heard recently: the idea of fitting steam heat to an aircon Mark 2 or Mark 3.

I suppose you're converting them to vac brake as well, rather than making the kettles air brake.

By the time you've done all that, might as well overhaul the Mark 1s, as doing that level of conversion work to Mark 2DEF/Mark 3 is not going to be cheap.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it's more profitable, could a preserved railway not open a Costa or a Greggs[1] franchise in their building? It's not conventional, but is there any actual reason they couldn't?

[1] I can't remember if they do franchises or not, but if not there's always Subway or similar.

Costa franchises are expensive. I looked into it a few years ago - you needed £200k up front cash, plus the same again which you could borrow. It’s probably more now. That’s before you’ve found premises, staff etc, What you are actually buying is the brand - ie the ability to sell Costa products in a Costa environment, which (for some reason) many members of the public are attracted to over independent shops offering similar or better products (usually) at a lower price. It works on the high st simply because there is competition, and many people prefer Costa over the alternatives.

For a heritage railway, that is a fair bit of cash, compared to (say) about £20k kitting out your own premises as a coffee shop. I don’t think a non-branded coffee shop is going to do that much less trade than a branded one. It would be akin to the SVR getting Wethetsp**ns in to run The Railwayman’s Arms.

Conwy Valley, anyone?

Some form of rail / bike / dinghy, presumably. A 4 person version would still be overprovision.

 

[raetiamann]

I'm sure there will be some surprises once we move into the post CoVid period and the challenge for preservationists will be to respond in a manner to drive forward their respective operations.

Reading this thread with the usual steam/diesel discussion, is there any society looking at electric trains, either overhead or third rail? If there isn't then much railway history will be lost to future generations. There are a number of tram related projects, I'm thinking Seaton Tramway, Crich Tram Museum and Beamish, it I'm struggling to think of any heavy rail instances.

 

[D365]

Reading this thread with the usual steam/diesel discussion, is there any society looking at electric trains, either overhead or third rail? If there isn't then much railway history will be lost to future generations. There are a number of tram related projects, I'm thinking Seaton Tramway, Crich Tram Museum and Beamish, it I'm struggling to think of any heavy rail instances.

Imo the best option will be what Epping-Ongar are proposing for 483006. Fitment of traction batteries, which will presumably be charged during closing hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some form of rail / bike / dinghy, presumably. A 4 person version would still be overprovision.

In all seriousness, a "rail bike" thing marketed alongside the Ffestiniog Railway along there would, in season, be very popular indeed - there is a huge market for family holiday activities in and around Snowdonia. Almost certainly much more popular than the actual train service. It'd have to be one-way only for fairly obvious reasons, of course, with a bus shuttle to the other end to your car (as that's how most visitors would arrive). It wouldn't need to run along the whole route being purely a tourist attraction - most flooding and washouts are north of Llanrwst, and most families won't want to cycle as far as the full route anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

In all seriousness, a "rail bike" thing marketed alongside the Ffestiniog Railway along there would, in season, be very popular indeed - there is a huge market for family holiday activities in and around Snowdonia. Almost certainly much more popular than the actual train service. It'd have to be one-way only for fairly obvious reasons, of course, with a bus shuttle to the other end to your car (as that's how most visitors would arrive). It wouldn't need to run along the whole route being purely a tourist attraction - most flooding and washouts are north of Llanrwst, and most families won't want to cycle as far as the full route anyway.

Up the valley in the morning to BF, down in the afternoon. Tunnel would be an issue though. 2 miles of that isn’t exactly family friendly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Up the valley in the morning to BF, down in the afternoon. Tunnel would be an issue though. 2 miles of that isn’t exactly family friendly.

I'd imagine they wouldn't use the tunnel, they'd bus people to Roman Bridge perhaps.

If it were me I'd do it downhill only (i.e. from Roman Bridge to say Betws which is then a good place to walk round), then have a bus shuttle back which could perhaps have a trailer to take some "bikes" back up.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

I'm sure there will be some surprises once we move into the post CoVid period and the challenge for preservationists will be to respond in a manner to drive forward their respective operations.

Reading this thread with the usual steam/diesel discussion, is there any society looking at electric trains, either overhead or third rail? If there isn't then much railway history will be lost to future generations. There are a number of tram related projects, I'm thinking Seaton Tramway, Crich Tram Museum and Beamish, it I'm struggling to think of any heavy rail instances.

In the Light Railway Orders for the Mid Hants Railway the use of electricity (other than battery) is specifically forbidden. (As if we wanted to go there … … !) I imagine these were standard conditions and probably appear in Transport & Works Act Orders as well, although I've not seen one of those. I'm guessing that the tramways had electrification written in especially.
Pat

 

[paul1609]

So do I, initially - the question is, for how long. In 30 years Mk1s will be 90 years old, and Mk2/a/b/c 80; anything newer will be a/c stock which adds disproportionate complications for a 25mph heritage railway.
I was perhaps being pessimistic - it may be that Mk1 coach bodies can last even longer.

On the Kent & East Sussex Railway some of our vintage carriages in day to day service are pushing 130 years old. How much of them have survived since construction is of course a moot point. Some of our MK 1s have been pretty comprehensively rebuilt in preservation. Theres no reason that MK1s couldn't continue in service indefinitely that I can see.

Retrofit steam heat? Most preserved locos support it.

Electric storage heating, with the coaches plugged in overnight before use?

Fit individual Webasto diesel heaters to each coach like electric buses (ironically) use?

We currently have a project underway to restore a MK1 kitchen car for use to upgrade the facilities on our Wealden Pullman service. One of the issues was the desire to replace the gas cooking facilities. Initially the plan was that the vehicle would be fitted with a diesel generator to provide the electrical load but the advancement of battery technology means that the project has (Baldrick will be happy to hear) been changed to incorporate batteries and invertors to provide the electric load whilst away from Tenterden. The story is here https://kesr.org.uk/donate/kitchen-car-appeal/ (you have to scroll through the public donation stuff to get to the latest project updates). If this sort of load can be maintain by batteries I'd imagine you could maintain heating and controlled emission toilets for preserved railway needs whilst away from a shore supply.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Blaenau to Trawsfynydd would be great for Rail Bike, few gradients, ideally twintrack narrow-gauge
Even better than the FR, I should not like cycling down to Porthmadog
Could even be extended to Bala eventually

For the near future, I heard a plausible forecast that travel shall be very popular when covid has been vanquished. Could be a lucrative time for heritage lines, Alton Towers etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blaenau to Trawsfynydd would be great for Rail Bike, few gradients, ideally twintrack narrow-gauge

Didn't think of that. That's a great idea.

 

[Bald Rick]

Didn't think of that. That's a great idea.

Sorry I thought that your suggestion was inspired by the same proposal for the Trawsfynydd line some years ago.

 

[raetiamann]

In the Light Railway Orders for the Mid Hants Railway the use of electricity (other than battery) is specifically forbidden. (As if we wanted to go there … … !) I imagine these were standard conditions and probably appear in Transport & Works Act Orders as well, although I've not seen one of those. I'm guessing that the tramways had electrification written in especially.
Pat

Thanks for that. It does though raise a couple of questions.
If a heritage line wanted specifically to run electric, maybe that could be applied for?
Where does the climate conversation go someway down the line, because at some point the use of steam & diesel could be very restricted or even in a worst case scenario be banned.

 

[xotGD]

Thanks for that. It does though raise a couple of questions.
If a heritage line wanted specifically to run electric, maybe that could be applied for?
Where does the climate conversation go someway down the line, because at some point the use of steam & diesel could be very restricted or even in a worst case scenario be banned.

Torrefied biomass pellets and biodiesel would get round that problem.

 

[DB]

- the supply of volunteers is likely to continue, as the increase in retirement age isn't likely to outpace the increase in longevity (over the preservation era lifespan has steadily increased - by 10 years in 60).

Not sure that really applies - someone who retires at 60 is far more likely to be in good enough shape to go and bash metal or install sleepers than someone who retires at 70.

 

[30907]

Not sure that really applies - someone who retires at 60 is far more likely to be in good enough shape to go and bash metal or install sleepers than someone who retires at 70.

But someone who retires at 70 with life expectancy of 20 years might be better than someone who retired at 60 with expectancy of 15?
70 is the new 60 and all that...
(Most of us didn't get to retire at 60 btw...)

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps one factor which may cause a rethink of which carriages to use is if the Environmental Health Officers decide that permitting heritage railways to discharge human excrement on the track bed (and thus by implication on foot and road crossings) can no longer be allowed?

Surely fully tanked carriages have to become the order of the day? (or of course remove all on board toilets).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps one factor which may cause a rethink of which carriages to use is if the Environmental Health Officers decide that permitting heritage railways to discharge human excrement on the track bed (and thus by implication on foot and road crossings) can no longer be allowed?

Surely fully tanked carriages have to become the order of the day? (or of course remove all on board toilets).

As I mentioned above, cheaper replacements could be installed, such as cassette chemical toilets as fitted to road coaches and touring caravans. No need for full CETs.

You also probably don't need toilets at all on many if not most preserved lines as the journeys are short and toilets tend to be available at stations.

 

[vlad]

If it's more profitable, could a preserved railway not open a Costa or a Greggs[1] franchise in their building? It's not conventional, but is there any actual reason they couldn't?

As nostalgia moves on, what's to say that in 50 years' time there won't be any preserved railways catering to the "I miss the 2010s" market?

 

[Titfield]

As I mentioned above, cheaper replacements could be installed, such as cassette chemical toilets as fitted to road coaches and touring caravans. No need for full CETs.

You also probably don't need toilets at all on many if not most preserved lines as the journeys are short and toilets tend to be available at stations.

You would think so but when a little kid has to go they have to go!!

Not only that but when some HRs run Santa Specials the journey time (without being able to get off) is much much longer.

 

[DB]

As nostalgia moves on, what's to say that in 50 years' time there won't be any preserved railways catering to the "I miss the 2010s" market?

Post-BR units will actually be pretty difficult to preserve in working order when they are obsolete - mainly due to the computerised control systems.

 

[Ianno87]

Post-BR units will actually be pretty difficult to preserve in working order when they are obsolete - mainly due to the computerised control systems.

**Mental image of taking my future grandkids on a preserved Voyager to Rawtenstall**

 

[StephenHunter]

Post-BR units will actually be pretty difficult to preserve in working order when they are obsolete - mainly due to the computerised control systems.

People are already managing to preserve computers and construct emulators.

 

[DB]

People are already managing to preserve computers and construct emulators.

Not the same thing.

Trying to maintain a complicated bespoke computerised control system on a train, using components which become no longer available, would be very difficult.

I'm not saying a competent electronics engineer couldn't find a way, but people with that sort of expertise are relatively few and far between. The cost of doing it as a commercial project is likely to be considerable, and the expertise needed to maintain the trains would also be of a different order to something like a Mk1 carriage.

 

[philthetube]

Not easy but the only way might be to hard wire them.

 

[D365]

I'd imagine they wouldn't use the tunnel, they'd bus people to Roman Bridge perhaps.

If it were me I'd do it downhill only (i.e. from Roman Bridge to say Betws which is then a good place to walk round), then have a bus shuttle back which could perhaps have a trailer to take some "bikes" back up.

One couldn't tow the rail bikes through the tunnel? Just ask the punters to pop a face mask on