Have we reached Peak Preservation?

[paul1609]

You would think so but when a little kid has to go they have to go!!

Not only that but when some HRs run Santa Specials the journey time (without being able to get off) is much much longer.

Engineeringwise I dont see it much of a problem coming up with a heritage friendly controlled emision toilet for a mk1 coach. Theres loads of vacuum toilet components that have been in use in the marine industry for 30 plus years, with the limited duration of the service you dont need a large retention tank. I think the major stumbling block would have been the power requirement but battery technology has resolved that (see my post above about the K&ESR kitchen car). We already connect many of our passenger vehicles to a shore supply when not in use because our the nature of our line means that even modified dynamos cant maintain the batteries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would think so but when a little kid has to go they have to go!!

Little kids manage to travel on Merseyrail and London Underground all the time, with journey times comparable to most preserved lines.

Engineeringwise I dont see it much of a problem coming up with a heritage friendly controlled emision toilet for a mk1 coach. Theres loads of vacuum toilet components that have been in use in the marine industry for 30 plus years, with the limited duration of the service you dont need a large retention tank.

All you need to do is fit an off the shelf road coach type chemical bog - sorted.

Not only that but when some HRs run Santa Specials the journey time (without being able to get off) is much much longer.

They could of course change how those services work so toilets at stations would be accessible.

 

[Ianno87]

Little kids manage to travel on Merseyrail and London Underground all the time, with journey times comparable to most preserved lines.

On a preserved railway, you're more likely to be taking a picnic, drinks etc. with you to eat on the train. And possibly doing a round trip without getting off, etc.


Also heritage railways are patronised by families who may otherwise rarely use trains, so may "expect" a toilet and plan accordingly.

 

[paul1609]

Little kids manage to travel on Merseyrail and London Underground all the time, with journey times comparable to most preserved lines.



All you need to do is fit an off the shelf road coach type chemical bog - sorted.



They could of course change how those services work so toilets at stations would be accessible.

My experience as a guard on heritage lines would suggest that on board toilet facilities are at the least very desirable and probably essential. We have a mix of Mk1 coaches with toilets and victorian coaches without and the problems those cause with some elements of society are considerable. This is on a line with a journey time of 50 mins and public toilets at all our 3 major stations. Id suggest that comparison with public transport is futile because we are seeking to have an open to all philosophy. Many members of society never use public transport at all and indeed some will seek alternatives due to the lack of essential facilities.

 

[Titfield]

All I can add is that my views are based on observation from working as a volunteer on a heritage railway.

Perhaps it is a combination of the excitement and the "pop" but demand for toilets on santa trains is high.

IMHO toilets are very much a "need to improve" issue on heritage railways. Customers who may visit other attractions for example National Trust Properties or Theme parks now have a very high expectation including baby changing facilities and accessible toilets. We do ourselves a diservice by not providing these facilities to the desired standard.

 

[Ianno87]

All I can add is that my views are based on observation from working as a volunteer on a heritage railway.

Perhaps it is a combination of the excitement and the "pop" but demand for toilets on santa trains is high.

Oh, Jeez, yes - absolutely essential on Santa trains and Thomas days with the level of excitement.

IMHO toilets are very much a "need to improve" issue on heritage railways. Customers who may visit other attractions for example National Trust Properties or Theme parks now have a very high expectation including baby changing facilities and accessible toilets.

From personal experience, a Mark 1 table makes a lovely sized changing facility (due to lack of an alternative); but hardly private or hygenic (I did put down a disposible mat)

We do ourselves a diservice by not providing these facilities to the desired standard.

I agree - makes the difference to Joe Public between coming across as 'amateurishly' versus 'professionally' run.

 

[Flying Phil]

This thread has had the usual deviations via coffee, carriages and toilets....but when talking of "peak preservation" there probably will be one or two railways that close in the next couple of years....(.but may well re-open with new management). With well over 100 heritage lines that is really to be expected.
However as has been said before, there are quite a few lines expanding with very credible plans and a proven track record of success. These
include :- L & B, GWSR, CVR, GCR, N & L, Southwold, Rother Valley etc. There are also more steam hauled main line excursions (in 2019 and planned for 2021). There are several specialist companies doing boilers, carriages, overhauls for preserved stock as well as highly regarded workshops on preserved lines.
Post Covid many people in this country will not be travelling abroad as much and will be looking for "experiences" and day trips. Some may want to become more "involved"
I think the Preservation Peak has not yet been reached.

 

[Dublo71]

If it's more profitable, could a preserved railway not open a Costa or a Greggs[1] franchise in their building? It's not conventional, but is there any actual reason they couldn't?

[1] I can't remember if they do franchises or not, but if not there's always Subway or similar.

Slightly tongue in cheek but Horsted Keynes already has a subway, between the platforms

 

[Titfield]

Very good on April Fools Day

 

[swanhill41]

There is an area which is central to the heritage rail game..Volunteers..The 60 plus age group ,the hard core of the industry are due to covid going to be far less in number.An area of concern.More paid staff?

 

[Titfield]

There are so very many factors which influence volunteering it is a tough one to call whether or not COVID will have a significant effect.

As to more paid staff few railways can afford them for example Swanage (one of the largest heritage railways in terms of passengers carried / services operated) which made 8 paid posts redundant last October.

 

[paul1609]

"Extensions" need very careful consideration. Will the additional revenue outweigh the additional costs?

If you double the mileage will passengers be prepared to pay double the fare? I would suggest this may be a significant disincentive to sales.

Does the railway have sufficient resources in pway to manage the additional line length. The recent WSR experience suggests this may be an issue. It isnt of course just about pway but consider all the lineside civils. Climate change with heavier rainfall has seen a number of landslides (of embankments) creating major issues for the national network. As we have seen a landslide on a heritage railway can be a financial and operational catastrophe.

A further issue - one already evident on some of the longer preserved railways - is the frequency of service. Self evidently with a longer line the interval between services can be considerable unless a second loco - with all that entails - is put into service. In a world of "on demand services" how many customers would plan their days sufficiently well? How often do potential customers turn up to find that the less "sensible train" of the day has gone (ie typically the last but one train thus giving the passenger time at the destination rather than just coming straight back).

I cant help but feel that small is beautiful as it is far more manageable than taking on additional commitments. Indeed when one looks at some heritage railways they have struggled to manage and maintain their current commitments.

In the past Ive studied the business cases of a lot of the preserved railways to see if theres anything we could gleam to improve the finances of the K&ESR. Most of my contacts were made through networking at Heritage Railway Association meetings but the reality is that the railways are so diverse in a number of factors that there isnt really one model that fits all. The IOWSR is often quoted as an ideal model with length at 6 miles, a largely captive holiday market being on an island and the major station half way, anetwork connection at one end etc. but the reality is we cant reproduce that model on the Kent and East Sussex borders so we have to base our model on what we have. In our case the length of line is currently defined by a major market town at one end and a major national trust attraction. The business case for the 3 mile extension to Robertsbridge has been thoroughly investigated by both ourselves and independently by a university before proceeding to the public inquiry.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Which is actually the 'biggest' railway by number of passengers, passenger miles, total revenue?

 

[paul1609]

Which is actually the 'biggest' railway by number of passengers, passenger miles, total revenue?

Welsh Highland/Ffestiniog.

 

[JonathanH]

The IOWSR is often quoted as an ideal model with length at 6 miles, a largely captive holiday market being on an island and the major station half way, anetwork connection at one end etc. but the reality is we cant reproduce that model on the Kent and East Sussex borders so we have to base our model on what we have.

...and of course, one of the issues of the IOWSR is that it can't offer buffet services, catering or dining on its trains because the rolling stock isn't suitable, but perhaps that isn't necessary in their market As you note, the models of each line have to be based on what is available and the individual circumstances.