Have you had valid Delay Repay claims rejected?

[superalbs]

From my experience passengers give the minimal details

Can't really blame them when you get about 200 characters lol.

 

[zoothorn]

In recent years when my wife and I are travelling together on identical tickets, we have had one claim accepted and one declined, presumably different people have dealt with each separate claim, this was especially galling when we had tickets bought on a Two Together Railcard. In every case a resubmitted claim has resulted in a correct payment but it is annoying to have to do this. It would be so useful if you could submit one claim for journeys like this as it is so much extra bureaucracy to repeat identical details on two forms. I also had a claim rejected because of the image of the tickets not showing that they had been invalidated by being cut up or defaced, I think that is a weird GA requirement. Again a time-consuming re-submission ended with the correct refund. Most calims are with GTR companies. I was pleased that a tricky claim for split GTR/CrossCountry journey was paid no problems by Cross Country whose 10 minute delay led to a one hour delay overall.

 

[robbeech]

3 colleagues travelled short journeys on Northern in the Manchester area on the last Saturday of the strikes. It was a service scheduled to run. It ran 35L and was their entire journey. No missed connections, no split tickets, nothing to cause any confusion. 3 single, undiscounted tickets.

They each applied for compensation using the online form, using their own details, on their own computers / devices. They each did it within 30 minutes of each other whilst sat in a pub.

The results.

1. Paid The correct 30 minutes plus amount.

2. Claimed the delay was under the threshold (think it was still 30 then) and as such no compensation is due.

3. Rejected and told to get a refund as they did not travel.



Number 2 appealed this decision and was rejected 2 more times. On the last email they mentioned the Ombudsman and it was paid within 24 hours.

Number 3 has appealed, it has been rejected and they have got to a ‘deadlock’ point. The time has also elapsed now. This will be sent to the Ombudsman.

You’d have to have an incredibly biased mind to not consider this could be done deliberately to minimise compensation payout. Each ticket had a value of around £11.

Is there absolutely nobody that can get hold of this and stop them behaving this way?

 

[sheff1]

You’d have to have an incredibly biased mind to not consider this could be done deliberately to minimise compensation payout.

Yet some posters are insistent that the cost of Delay Repay to TOCs is "trivial" and hence TOCs do not seek to reject valid claims to minimise payout. To my mind, it happens far too often to be put down totally to incompetence as the same posters would have us believe.

Is there absolutely nobody that can get hold of this and stop them behaving this way?

ORR have shown zero interest. An effective Ombudsman should be able get things under control .... it remains to be seen whether the Rail Ombudsman can achieve anything.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have just had a claim for a delay due to a cancellation bounced back by Virgin because they do not know what my planned journey was. In the bounce email they state the date and time of my planned service (obviously taken from the online claim form) and confirm it was cancelled. You couldn't make it up !

 

[Kite159]

I had an odd one with Scotrail for a delay from last Friday, firstly rejected because "you didn't upload a picture of the tickets" (which I did). I followed the online appeal process with the same scan of the cut ticket and it got accepted & paid.

 

[sc597]

Does anyone know how half minutes are handled by TOCs under Delay Repay? I was on a service today which according to RTT got in 29.5 minutes late - well, realistically by the time it pulled up to the platform and the doors opened it was well over 30 minutes but I appreciate it's where it's measured pulling in which counts - but should I claim this as a 30 minute delay or do half minutes get rounded down?

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone know how half minutes are handled by TOCs under Delay Repay? I was on a service today which according to RTT got in 29.5 minutes late - well, realistically by the time it pulled up to the platform and the doors opened it was well over 30 minutes but I appreciate it's where it's measured pulling in which counts - but should I claim this as a 30 minute delay or do half minutes get rounded down?

In your position I would claim. We can't be certain what the TOC will do, but you could miss out by not claiming. In any event, they won't be using RTT for the time of arrival.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Does anyone know how half minutes are handled by TOCs under Delay Repay? I was on a service today which according to RTT got in 29.5 minutes late - well, realistically by the time it pulled up to the platform and the doors opened it was well over 30 minutes but I appreciate it's where it's measured pulling in which counts - but should I claim this as a 30 minute delay or do half minutes get rounded down?

When the train pulls into the platform is entirely immaterial for the purposes of delay compensation. After all, it could be that there is a door fault, a bomb scare or any number of other reasons that mean the doors aren't released for quite some time after stopping. Your delay is measured with respect to the time the doors are released for opening. There isn't, as far as I'm aware, any official measure of this, so I presume a certain level of leeway is given in cases such as this. For example, if a train is measured as stopping in the platform at 28 minutes late, I think a claim would be denied, and in most cases this would be correct. At 29 minutes late, it would be on the verge. For 29.5 minutes late it would be very difficult for the train company to be sufficiently sure the doors didn't open exactly 30 minutes late so I would like to hope that they would pay out without quibble.

If you have any problems, come back to us - otherwise eventually your recourse could be the Rail Ombudsman. But I'm sure that won't be necessary and that the train company will pay out correclty.

 

[sc597]

Thanks both.

 

[Kite159]

In your position I would claim. We can't be certain what the TOC will do, but you could miss out by not claiming. In any event, they won't be using RTT for the time of arrival.

Or in the case of SWR they use the time when the train passes a signal 2 miles away as the time the train arrives into the station, even if that means a 159 being able to do ~ 160mph. Still waiting to hear back from the Ombudsman regarding that.

 

[nickswift99]

A month after an incorrectly rejected GWR Delay Repay claim and I've had some very helpful (and hopeful) conversations with both their Customer Services team and the team dealing with Delay Repay.

It seems that the staff dealing with Delay Repay have not been properly trained on how the website works, leading to incorrect advice being given to claimants. I have been told that there are a number of improvements to the claims process "on the way".

In the meantime, I'm hopeful that GWR will pay my claim in the next week or so...

 

[323235]

I had a claim with Virgin Trains rejected on the basis of a 1/2 minute difference in the scheduled arrival time in the WTT which classed the train as 29 (1/2) minutes late.

The train was due into Stafford at 1758 (1/2 in WTT) and arrived at 18.28.

I was travelling with a West Mids Day Ranger.

I advised them that I would take further regulatory or legal action if they didn't pay up (I also quoted the consumer rights act) and it got immediately escalated.

2 weeks later they apologised for the error and gave me 4.50 and a 50% advance discount code for 2 people.

 

[robbeech]

When the train pulls into the platform is entirely immaterial for the purposes of delay compensation. After all, it could be that there is a door fault, a bomb scare or any number of other reasons that mean the doors aren't released for quite some time after stopping. Your delay is measured with respect to the time the doors are released for opening. There isn't, as far as I'm aware, any official measure of this, so I presume a certain level of leeway is given in cases such as this. For example, if a train is measured as stopping in the platform at 28 minutes late, I think a claim would be denied, and in most cases this would be correct. At 29 minutes late, it would be on the verge. For 29.5 minutes late it would be very difficult for the train company to be sufficiently sure the doors didn't open exactly 30 minutes late so I would like to hope that they would pay out without quibble.

If you have any problems, come back to us - otherwise eventually your recourse could be the Rail Ombudsman. But I'm sure that won't be necessary and that the train company will pay out correclty.

And can you give us an example of where a train was delayed into the platform by 29 minutes (and so registered as 29L) but the doors were released at 30 minutes and the TOC has paid out, either initially or after appeal?

 

[323235]

When the train pulls into the platform is entirely immaterial for the purposes of delay compensation. After all, it could be that there is a door fault, a bomb scare or any number of other reasons that mean the doors aren't released for quite some time after stopping. Your delay is measured with respect to the time the doors are released for opening. There isn't, as far as I'm aware, any official measure of this, so I presume a certain level of leeway is given in cases such as this. For example, if a train is measured as stopping in the platform at 28 minutes late, I think a claim would be denied, and in most cases this would be correct. At 29 minutes late, it would be on the verge. For 29.5 minutes late it would be very difficult for the train company to be sufficiently sure the doors didn't open exactly 30 minutes late so I would like to hope that they would pay out without quibble.

If you have any problems, come back to us - otherwise eventually your recourse could be the Rail Ombudsman. But I'm sure that won't be necessary and that the train company will pay out correclty.

I've never heard this before - where is this documented?

I wouldn't even bother submitting a claim unless I knew the train was 30 minutes late in railway data against the scheduled public timetable arrival and I can't imagine many other people would either.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've never heard this before - where is this documented?

I wouldn't even bother submitting a claim unless I knew the train was 30 minutes late in railway data against the scheduled public timetable arrival and I can't imagine many other people would either.

Where is what documented, sorry?

It has previously been said by knowledgeable members that the railway open data is not concerned with the door opening time, and indeed this time is not recorded at all as far as I am aware.

If it went to the wire and you had escalated to the Ombudsman without success, at the end of the day if you wanted to take it to Court you'd only have to prove that it's more likely than not that the delay was of a qualifying length - i.e. on the balance of probabilities or 51+%.

If the railway's own data says 29 or even 29.5 minutes and you explain about the fact that this is actually just being a berth entry time plus offset to the average wheelstop time, not taking into account the door opening delay, then I would think that you would be granted judgment in your favour in the vast majority of cases.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And can you give us an example of where a train was delayed into the platform by 29 minutes (and so registered as 29L) but the doors were released at 30 minutes and the TOC has paid out, either initially or after appeal?

We had a case not long ago where this issue occurred with Virgin Trains. I can't find the thread right now, but if I remember correctly then they did eventually pay out.

 

[imtotesanon]

We had a case not long ago where this issue occurred with Virgin Trains. I can't find the thread right now, but if I remember correctly then they did eventually pay out.

That might have been me: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-timings-are-used-update-now-resolved.174703

 

[tony_mac]

Just out of interest, the same issue has been decided in court, with respect to airline delays.
https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/services/air-travel_en

"A flight is deemed to have officially arrived at its destination only when the doors open and passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft. This was decided by the Court of Justice of the EU in September 2014 in the case of Germanwings GmbH v Ronny Henning, Case C-452/13. In that case, the plane took off three hours and ten minutes after its scheduled time but landed on the runway at its destination airport, Cologne/Bonn with a delay of two hours and fifty-eight minutes. However, it took a further five minutes for the plane to taxi to a gage and for the doors to be opened.

The Court ruled that the time spent between landing and disembarking represents an inconvenience to passengers. “…., passengers are unable to carry on, without interruption, their personal, domestic, social or business activities,” the court said. “It is only when the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft and the order is given to that effect to open the doors of the aircraft that the passengers cease to be subject to those constraints and may in principle resume their normal activities.”

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just out of interest, the same issue has been decided in court, with respect to airline delays.
https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/services/air-travel_en

"A flight is deemed to have officially arrived at its destination only when the doors open and passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft. This was decided by the Court of Justice of the EU in September 2014 in the case of Germanwings GmbH v Ronny Henning, Case C-452/13. In that case, the plane took off three hours and ten minutes after its scheduled time but landed on the runway at its destination airport, Cologne/Bonn with a delay of two hours and fifty-eight minutes. However, it took a further five minutes for the plane to taxi to a gage and for the doors to be opened.

The Court ruled that the time spent between landing and disembarking represents an inconvenience to passengers. “…., passengers are unable to carry on, without interruption, their personal, domestic, social or business activities,” the court said. “It is only when the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft and the order is given to that effect to open the doors of the aircraft that the passengers cease to be subject to those constraints and may in principle resume their normal activities.”

Exactly. I can hardly see how the time that the train's wheels stop is in any way relevant to the time that the passenger has arrived at his destination - there may be numerous reasons why the two may be separated by more than the customary few seconds, just the same as may be the case for a flight.

I doubt that any Court or Ombudsman would rule contrary to the quoted ruling in the case of a delay in the opening of the doors themselves.

 

[_toommm_]

Exactly. I can hardly see how the time that the train's wheels stop is in any way relevant to the time that the passenger has arrived at his destination - there may be numerous reasons why the two may be separated by more than the customary few seconds, just the same as may be the case for a flight.

I doubt that any Court or Ombudsman would rule contrary to the quoted ruling in the case of a delay in the opening of the doors themselves.

It happened to me on a TPE from Manchester to Sheffield - TPE claimed they were only 29 late (even though it only came to a stop at bang on 30 late), but once I told them about it and the doors, they conceded.

 

[DunxIW]

I have made 3 Delay Repay claims in the last few weeks. Two (West Midland and Southern) were rejected at first attempt. West Midland paid up after appeal, appeal has now gone to Southern. They rejected the claim on the grounds that "Having checked our records for the details of the delay you provided to us, our system cannot find the journey that you intended to make so we are unable to proceed with your claim at this time."
I don't know what system they're using but the details are fully available on OpenTrain Times. The cynic in me believes that they reject the first claim out of hand in the hope that claimants will go away.
The West Midland delay was caused by the train hitting a tree, suffering brake damage, and having to return to the originating station approximately one hour later so why they claimed they had no record of the delay is incomprehensible.

 

[robbeech]

The cynic in you is created by the multiple examples of incompetence we see by these systems rejecting claims that a particularly poorly educated wasp could tell was valid.

As I’ve said before I’m not sure that systems are deliberately made to reject valid claims to try and thin them out hoping that many will give up, that would be too risky. However the systems DO operate like this and it DOES thin them out so people DO give up even if this operation wasn’t intended. Changing the way this system works would be financially detrimental I guess.