Heart of Wales Line. Campaign for improved service

[Rhydgaled]

Not wishing to burst your bubble, but where is the rolling stock going to come from to allow a more frequent service to operate? I'm not familiar with the setup for south wales, but I'd be suprised if there were any units currently spare, especially now Fishguard gets a better service.

I beleive four or five class 150 units were transfered to ATW for service strenthening that never happened. ATW then leased these out, but they have since returned leaving ATW with a surplus of 150s. One of these I think is now required to enable the Fishguard services, another I'd guess is indirectly covering for the 175 lost to WAG2 and another was probably covering (again indirectly) for 175002 while it was undergoing repairs. Anyway, I think ATW still have a surplus of one or two 150s, they haven't enough of anything else but 150s aren't in particularly short supply. In that respect, improvments to HOWL, as long as they require no more than 1 extra unit (and that unit has to be a 150, though perhaps on Pembroke Dock services to release a 153), might be possible.

Anyway, my opinion on the Heart Of Wales line is that additional trips should not be based on the current services. I just doubt the current all-stops trains can be competitive, and alot of the stations serve very little population. I wouldn't cut the service at the minor halts to less than the current 4trains per day, but I wouldn't say most of them should have a more frequent service either.

My idea is:

• Two units stabled at Llandrindod Wells (or Shrewsbury if stabling anywhere else is such a no-no)
  • These two would run to Llanwrtyd Wells in the morning where they would split.
  • One unit would continue to Swansea, the other reverse to Shrewsbury
  • The result being Builth Road, roughly halfway, retaining a morning service in both directions.
  • These would be the first of the four all-stops services in each direction, and reach Swansea and Shrewsbury in time for 9am work/college
  • The last of the four all-stops runs would be the reverse of this (ie. a Shrewsbury - Llanwrtyd service and a Swansea - Llandrindod service, with the former running back to Llandrindod in multiple with the unit from Swansea)
• In addition to the four all-stops trains each-way would be services calling at:
  • Swansea
  • Gowerton
  • Llanelli
  • Ammanford
  • Llandeilo
  • Llandovery
  • Llanwrtyd Wells
  • Builth Road
  • Llandrindod Wells
  • Knighton
  • Craven Arms
  • Shrewsbury
• That's 10 intermediate stops, versus 30 on the all-stops services, which I expect could give a drastic reduction in journey time.
  
  I've assumed a linespeed of 50mph and a distance of 120miles. I reckon that'd be 2hrs 30mins non-stop. Obviously it won't be 50mph linespeed right through, there will be slower sections. Through sheer guesswork, I'll add 15 minutes to allow for the lower linespeeds on parts of the route, so a 2hr 45min journey time. Add two minutes (a 30secs dwell plus slow down / start up time, again guesswork) for each of my ten intermeidate stops and I come up with a Swansea - Shrewsbury journey time of 3hrs 5mins. You will probably need to add more dwell time at the passing loops, but it's only 10-15 minutes slower than via Cardiff, unlike HOWL being an hour slower at the moment. It's not enough to divert Swansea - Shrewsbury passengers to HOWL, but should make rail a heck of a lot more competetive for travel to/from destonations on the HOWL itself.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Without researching it in depth I'd say its not that implausible, remembering that in the 1960s many seats were a straight 2-way fight. I know that Brecon & Radnor (which includes the stations in the Llandrindod Wells area) has changed hands many times over the years as has Carmarthen (Llandeilo & Ammanford etc).

Off the top of my head, Swansea West used to be closer than it is now, as did Gower. Shrewsbury might have been another, and possibly Ludlow (Church Stretton).

There's six possibles, and the line could easily have sneaked into another (Montgomery?).

Even though Labour won a big majority in 1966 one of the first things Transport Secretary Barbara Castle did was bring in a bill to subsidise rural lines where there was a "special local need" (cynics would say "marginal seats") and although it was too late for many (Carmarthen - Aberystwyth would have been a prime candidate), it certainly saved a number of lines in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall etc

doesn't touch Montgomeryshire at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I beleive four or five class 150 units were transfered to ATW for service strenthening that never happened. ATW then leased these out, but they have since returned leaving ATW with a surplus of 150s. One of these I think is now required to enable the Fishguard services, another I'd guess is indirectly covering for the 175 lost to WAG2 and another was probably covering (again indirectly) for 175002 while it was undergoing repairs. Anyway, I think ATW still have a surplus of one or two 150s, they haven't enough of anything else but 150s aren't in particularly short supply. In that respect, improvments to HOWL, as long as they require no more than 1 extra unit (and that unit has to be a 150, though perhaps on Pembroke Dock services to release a 153), might be possible.

Anyway, my opinion on the Heart Of Wales line is that additional trips should not be based on the current services. I just doubt the current all-stops trains can be competitive, and alot of the stations serve very little population. I wouldn't cut the service at the minor halts to less than the current 4trains per day, but I wouldn't say most of them should have a more frequent service either.

My idea is:

• Two units stabled at Llandrindod Wells (or Shrewsbury if stabling anywhere else is such a no-no)
  • These two would run to Llanwrtyd Wells in the morning where they would split.
  • One unit would continue to Swansea, the other reverse to Shrewsbury
  • The result being Builth Road, roughly halfway, retaining a morning service in both directions.
  • These would be the first of the four all-stops services in each direction, and reach Swansea and Shrewsbury in time for 9am work/college
  • The last of the four all-stops runs would be the reverse of this (ie. a Shrewsbury - Llanwrtyd service and a Swansea - Llandrindod service, with the former running back to Llandrindod in multiple with the unit from Swansea)
• In addition to the four all-stops trains each-way would be services calling at:
  • Swansea
  • Gowerton
  • Llanelli
  • Ammanford
  • Llandeilo
  • Llandovery
  • Llanwrtyd Wells
  • Builth Road
  • Llandrindod Wells
  • Knighton
  • Craven Arms
  • Shrewsbury
• That's 10 intermediate stops, versus 30 on the all-stops services, which I expect could give a drastic reduction in journey time.
  
  I've assumed a linespeed of 50mph and a distance of 120miles. I reckon that'd be 2hrs 30mins non-stop. Obviously it won't be 50mph linespeed right through, there will be slower sections. Through sheer guesswork, I'll add 15 minutes to allow for the lower linespeeds on parts of the route, so a 2hr 45min journey time. Add two minutes (a 30secs dwell plus slow down / start up time, again guesswork) for each of my ten intermeidate stops and I come up with a Swansea - Shrewsbury journey time of 3hrs 5mins. You will probably need to add more dwell time at the passing loops, but it's only 10-15 minutes slower than via Cardiff, unlike HOWL being an hour slower at the moment. It's not enough to divert Swansea - Shrewsbury passengers to HOWL, but should make rail a heck of a lot more competetive for travel to/from destonations on the HOWL itself.

The really useful bit of the HoW is the southern section that closed. Given how other lines into Cities have thrived in recent years. Swansea Victoria is now in the middle of the new city - SA1 development. Swansea University is right next to where line was on bay (Treforest station outside entrance to Uni of Glamorgan spits out one million footfall), Dunvant and Killay have same population as any Valley line towns, Gorsenion pop 17000 is one of largest towns in Wales with no station. Pontarddulais and Amanford should be spitting footfall out given their size and proximity to Swansea however 4 trains a day to Swansea via Llanelli attracts very few. If this section had survived it would probably be 30 min frequency now.

 

[swcovas]

Without researching it in depth I'd say its not that implausible, remembering that in the 1960s many seats were a straight 2-way fight. I know that Brecon & Radnor (which includes the stations in the Llandrindod Wells area) has changed hands many times over the years as has Carmarthen (Llandeilo & Ammanford etc).

Off the top of my head, Swansea West used to be closer than it is now, as did Gower. Shrewsbury might have been another, and possibly Ludlow (Church Stretton).

There's six possibles, and the line could easily have sneaked into another (Montgomery?).

Even though Labour won a big majority in 1966 one of the first things Transport Secretary Barbara Castle did was bring in a bill to subsidise rural lines where there was a "special local need" (cynics would say "marginal seats") and although it was too late for many (Carmarthen - Aberystwyth would have been a prime candidate), it certainly saved a number of lines in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall etc

Richard Marsh (Minister for Transport at the time of the second closure proposal) was supposedly presented with a solid case for closure. In a speech made at the LSE (reported in The Times on 8th March 1972) he recalled how he was determined that if he did nothing else he would leave office knowing that he had closed the line!! “I presented what I fondly imagined to be an unanswerable case to the Cabinet. I spoke for 15 minutes and sat back, I confess, with an air of satisfaction……smug satisfaction! It was a silence broken by the voice of the Secretary of State for Wales, one George Thomas, who said ‘But Prime Minister, it runs through six marginal constituencies.’”

Not sure what the six were.......Swansea West, Carmarthen, Brecon and Radnor and???

 

[Greenback]

The really useful bit of the HoW is the southern section that closed. Given how other lines into Cities have thrived in recent years. Swansea Victoria is now in the middle of the new city - SA1 development. Swansea University is right next to where line was on bay (Treforest station outside entrance to Uni of Glamorgan spits out one million footfall), Dunvant and Killay have same population as any Valley line towns, Gorsenion pop 17000 is one of largest towns in Wales with no station. Pontarddulais and Amanford should be spitting footfall out given their size and proximity to Swansea however 4 trains a day to Swansea via Llanelli attracts very few. If this section had survived it would probably be 30 min frequency now.

Technically, SA1 is the other side of the River Tawe from the old Swansea Victoria, which is in the Swansea Marina development of the late 1970's and early 1980's.

Apart from that, though, I agree 100%. The line through Killay, Dunvant, Gwoerton and Gorseinon passed through prime commuting territory, and there is a lot more economic activity near the Victoria site and along the foreshore than there was fifty years ago, when the South Dock was in decline.

Add in the travellers from Pontardulais, Ammanford and Llandeilo, and there is a lot of business there for a railway! Then add in the old connection with the Mumbles Railway at Blackpill and we can only imagine how useful that link might be today and in the future.

I'm sure that the towns and villages at the Shrewsbury end would also welcome more trains. It seems to me that Broome, Hopton Heath and Bucknell could provide quite a few more passengers with a better service.

 

[swcovas]

doesn't touch Montgomeryshire at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The really useful bit of the HoW is the southern section that closed. Given how other lines into Cities have thrived in recent years. Swansea Victoria is now in the middle of the new city - SA1 development. Swansea University is right next to where line was on bay (Treforest station outside entrance to Uni of Glamorgan spits out one million footfall), Dunvant and Killay have same population as any Valley line towns, Gorsenion pop 17000 is one of largest towns in Wales with no station. Pontarddulais and Amanford should be spitting footfall out given their size and proximity to Swansea however 4 trains a day to Swansea via Llanelli attracts very few. If this section had survived it would probably be 30 min frequency now.

Feasably a short link could be constructed from the Swansea & District to Gorseinon and on to the West Wales main line at Gowerton and on into Swansea High St. The other bit down to Swansea Bay is long gone but Llandeilo-Ammanford-Pontardulais-Gorseinon-Gowerton-Swansea would beat the bus alternative with ease. It's faster now even running via Llanelli but as you say with 4 a day.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm sure that the towns and villages at the Shrewsbury end would also welcome more trains. It seems to me that Broome, Hopton Heath and Bucknell could provide quite a few more passengers with a better service.[/QUOTE]

Probably true.....the vast majority of season tickets (such as they are) on the line are sold from Knighton, Bucknell and Broome!

 

[VideozVideoz]

Hmmm it's an interesting topic this one. I love the HOWL and I agree it would be fantastic to see a more frequent service. The main issue is down to population on the route. Employment centres are very important in the current climate and mid-Wales residents don't have much choice (Hereford or Shrewsbury at a push). This is why a lot of the passengers on HOWL are OAPs who get free rides. They dont need to live near employment centres but the next generations do and therefore aren't moving into the area. Whilst the line benefits from summer tourists, the rest of the year sees many trains running empty. Also, the single track sections cause a hinderance to the timetable planning which is why the timings of trains are what they are! I know the 4am-ish departure from Swansea sees a few clubbers boarding after a night out but it is obviously easier/cheaper to start the train at Swansea than Llandrindod due to location of staff and stabling costs. Also, I don't know if there are train staff who live in the area so the likelihood is 2 ppl would have to drive to Llandod to start a service.

Interesting to note that there are season ticket holders from Knighton onwards. Does anyone do Llandrindod-Shrewsbury daily?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Feasably a short link could be constructed from the Swansea & District to Gorseinon and on to the West Wales main line at Gowerton and on into Swansea High St. The other bit down to Swansea Bay is long gone but Llandeilo-Ammanford-Pontardulais-Gorseinon-Gowerton-Swansea would beat the bus alternative with ease. It's faster now even running via Llanelli but as you say with 4 a day.......

This has been looked at several times on a very high level and is probably feasible if funding could be found. By all accounts , even in the 1940's , there was a 2 tier service with around 5 end to end trains with a Brynamman West / Llandeilo - Llanelli local and a Pontardulais - Victoria service via Dunvant. The GW and LMS considered rationalisation in the 40's with the intention of closing Swansea Victoria. Good that the debate has moved to the options on the busiest piece of the route , ......

 

[swcovas]

[*]In addition to the four all-stops trains each-way would be services calling at:

• Swansea
• Gowerton
• Llanelli
• Ammanford
• Llandeilo
• Llandovery
• Llanwrtyd Wells
• Builth Road
• Llandrindod Wells
• Knighton
• Craven Arms
• Shrewsbury

[*]That's 10 intermediate stops, versus 30 on the all-stops services, which I expect could give a drastic reduction in journey time.

I've assumed a linespeed of 50mph and a distance of 120miles. I reckon that'd be 2hrs 30mins non-stop. Obviously it won't be 50mph linespeed right through, there will be slower sections. Through sheer guesswork, I'll add 15 minutes to allow for the lower linespeeds on parts of the route, so a 2hr 45min journey time. Add two minutes (a 30secs dwell plus slow down / start up time, again guesswork) for each of my ten intermeidate stops and I come up with a Swansea - Shrewsbury journey time of 3hrs 5mins. You will probably need to add more dwell time at the passing loops, but it's only 10-15 minutes slower than via Cardiff, unlike HOWL being an hour slower at the moment. It's not enough to divert Swansea - Shrewsbury passengers to HOWL, but should make rail a heck of a lot more competetive for travel to/from destonations on the HOWL itself.
[/LIST]

Having faster end to end timings would be good but there would be many obstacles to your plan as things stand at present.

In addition to your suggested stops above, as things stand at the moment trains also have compulsory stops to operate crossings in the up direction at Llandybie, Ammanford, Llangadog, llanwrda, Dolau & Bucknell and at Ffaifach in the down direction.

Max line speed is 60 although this is far from extensive. However, there are a lot of "irritating" speed restrictions which if removed could speed up trains, for example, since construction the new Glanrhyd bridge has had a speed limit of 20 which follows immediately a 10mph restriction at the old Glanrhyd station and crossing, train crews have to stop, operate the crossing then proceed to a stop at Llandovery and Llandrindod stations. And there are more. I think the best we could ever expect is a 3h 30m journey time.

 

[tbtc]

A few points:

Firstly, the DDA requirements will mean that the current practice of running twenty three metre 153s or thirty metre 142s on the HOWL will no longer be feasible after the end of this decade. The minimum length of train suitable for the HOWL would be forty metres. It may not sound like much, but this will push up the operational costs of marginal branch lines like these. 142s and 153s aren’t great units, but they are cheap to run – the DDA requirements (which realistically mean the end for short DMUs like these) may make some rural routes uneconomic. This could be a problem on other lightly used routes (Barton on Humber etc), where the withdrawal of short DMUs could tip the balance.

Secondly, it wouldn’t be RailUKForums were it not for the calls for a lightly used rural line in the most subsidised franchise to be doubled in frequency with old lines being reopened!

Thirdly, this line is a good one to try to “model” hypothetical times for. Let’s say you have a spare DMU – can you use three units to provide a regular service at each end (let’s face it, there’s precious little demand at stations in the middle of the HOWL), so is it feasible to provide a regular service from Knighton to Shrewsbury and Llandovery to Swansea (that are of practical use to commuters/ shoppers/ leisure market) whilst providing the intermediate stations with sufficient service to provide a reasonable day out Shrewsbury/ Swansea (and for people in Shrewsbury/ Swansea to visit rural Wales)? The current timetable is more of a “box ticking” exercise, but can three units provide a significantly better service?

 

[swcovas]

A few points:

Firstly, the DDA requirements will mean that the current practice of running twenty three metre 153s or thirty metre 142s on the HOWL will no longer be feasible after the end of this decade. The minimum length of train suitable for the HOWL would be forty metres. It may not sound like much, but this will push up the operational costs of marginal branch lines like these. 142s and 153s aren’t great units, but they are cheap to run – the DDA requirements (which realistically mean the end for short DMUs like these) may make some rural routes uneconomic. This could be a problem on other lightly used routes (Barton on Humber etc), where the withdrawal of short DMUs could tip the balance.

Secondly, it wouldn’t be RailUKForums were it not for the calls for a lightly used rural line in the most subsidised franchise to be doubled in frequency with old lines being reopened!

Well, I don' thgink that anyone has asked to see the frequency doubled nice at it would be!!

Thirdly, this line is a good one to try to “model” hypothetical times for. Let’s say you have a spare DMU – can you use three units to provide a regular service at each end (let’s face it, there’s precious little demand at stations in the middle of the HOWL), so is it feasible to provide a regular service from Knighton to Shrewsbury and Llandovery to Swansea (that are of practical use to commuters/ shoppers/ leisure market) whilst providing the intermediate stations with sufficient service to provide a reasonable day out Shrewsbury/ Swansea (and for people in Shrewsbury/ Swansea to visit rural Wales)? The current timetable is more of a “box ticking” exercise, but can three units provide a significantly better service?

I will leave it to those who have the skill and who enjoy juggling with diagrams to come up with some alternatives but I do think these ideas should be forwarded to the Heart of Wales Forum as suggested in my initial posting. I do thinkl that it woiuld be difficult to omit Llandrindod on any short workings though probably on those heading north. Of significance too is that between Llandod and Knighton there is a black hole in terms of public transport. Much of rural Wales has limited public transport but Between Llandod and Knucklas/Knighton there is nothing other than the railway. TraCC did some rather optimistic timetables which you might be interested in looking at....... http://www.tracc.gov.uk/index.php?id=67&L=0

 

[tbtc]

I will leave it to those who have the skill and who enjoy juggling with diagrams to come up with some alternatives but I do think these ideas should be forwarded to the Heart of Wales Forum as suggested in my initial posting. I do thinkl that it woiuld be difficult to omit Llandrindod on any short workings though probably on those heading north. Of significance too is that between Llandod and Knighton there is a black hole in terms of public transport. Much of rural Wales has limited public transport but Between Llandod and Knucklas/Knighton there is nothing other than the railway. TraCC did some rather optimistic timetables which you might be interested in looking at....... http://www.tracc.gov.uk/index.php?id=67&L=0

I've tried mucking about with some timetables, using the 2010/2011 passenger data as a guide to station popularity.

The problem is that between Knighton and Llandovery you are travelling for around two hours (a four hour round trip) just to serve Llandrindod (with Builth Road and Llanwrtyd being the only other stations between Knighton and Llandovery that see over two passengers per departure - Sugar Loaf only got 84 passengers in the year).

Based on your superior knowledge of the line, would you say that the main trade from Llandrindod was in the Swansea direction or the Shrewsbury direction?

The reason I ask is that, for the two units that currently work the HOWL in a day, you could have a bi-hourly Knighton - Shrewsbury service and a three-hourly Llandovery - Swansea service (therefore providing a much more reliable/ simple service to the busier bits at each end), but I don't know whether the demand from busier stations in the middle (Llandrindod, Builth Road and Llanwrtyd) would be mainly towards Swansea in the morning or towards Shrewsbury in the morning. Or is the demand more about getting those from Swansea/Shrewsbury into Llandridnod? If there were a third unit found for the HOWL, would it be better focussing on the eastbound or westbound demand?

 

[swcovas]

I've tried mucking about with some timetables, using the 2010/2011 passenger data as a guide to station popularity.

The problem is that between Knighton and Llandovery you are travelling for around two hours (a four hour round trip) just to serve Llandrindod (with Builth Road and Llanwrtyd being the only other stations between Knighton and Llandovery that see over two passengers per departure - Sugar Loaf only got 84 passengers in the year).

Based on your superior knowledge of the line, would you say that the main trade from Llandrindod was in the Swansea direction or the Shrewsbury direction?

The reason I ask is that, for the two units that currently work the HOWL in a day, you could have a bi-hourly Knighton - Shrewsbury service and a three-hourly Llandovery - Swansea service (therefore providing a much more reliable/ simple service to the busier bits at each end), but I don't know whether the demand from busier stations in the middle (Llandrindod, Builth Road and Llanwrtyd) would be mainly towards Swansea in the morning or towards Shrewsbury in the morning. Or is the demand more about getting those from Swansea/Shrewsbury into Llandridnod? If there were a third unit found for the HOWL, would it be better focussing on the eastbound or westbound demand?

I think I am right in saying that there is more of a flow from Llandrindod to Salop in the morning and reverse in evening but there is also inward touristy flow into Llandrindod from both directions. The mid morning arrivals at llandrindod have always seen good flow of traffic into the town in holiday periods. The late 80s tt with 5 trains served fairly well though even then there was no pre 0900 arrival at Swansea. For a short time in 1987 there was an 0730 (or thereabouts) dep from Llandeilo to Swansea. How well used it was I don't know but then there was the accident at Glanrhyd Bridge in Oct 87 and everything changed!

Due to its geographical location Llandrindod is now a popular conference venue and various bodies have made noises about creating a tt to encourage delegates to use the train.
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Hmmm it's an interesting topic this one. I love the HOWL and I agree it would be fantastic to see a more frequent service. The main issue is down to population on the route. Employment centres are very important in the current climate and mid-Wales residents don't have much choice (Hereford or Shrewsbury at a push). This is why a lot of the passengers on HOWL are OAPs who get free rides. They dont need to live near employment centres but the next generations do and therefore aren't moving into the area. Whilst the line benefits from summer tourists, the rest of the year sees many trains running empty. Also, the single track sections cause a hinderance to the timetable planning which is why the timings of trains are what they are! I know the 4am-ish departure from Swansea sees a few clubbers boarding after a night out but it is obviously easier/cheaper to start the train at Swansea than Llandrindod due to location of staff and stabling costs. Also, I don't know if there are train staff who live in the area so the likelihood is 2 ppl would have to drive to Llandod to start a service.

Interesting to note that there are season ticket holders from Knighton onwards. Does anyone do Llandrindod-Shrewsbury daily?

Yea, funny about the clubbers! I joined the first up train at Llandeilo in the middle of winter last year. There were two or three obviously long distance travellers on the train plus one guy dozing on his own. The guard woke him up just before Cynghordy (one of the rather remote halts) where he alighted and disappeared off into the darkness. Curious, I asked the guard who confirmed he'd been out clubbing and told me that it wasn't unusual to see a few going down on the last train and back on the first up. The timing is perfect for it.

I also gather that Swansea City's recent success has also seen a noticeable flow down and back during match days. again the timings are perfect.

Not sure about Llandod to Salop daily......not that many season tickets sold there. And virtually nothing at anywhere further south.

 

[Greenback]

This has been looked at several times on a very high level and is probably feasible if funding could be found. By all accounts , even in the 1940's , there was a 2 tier service with around 5 end to end trains with a Brynamman West / Llandeilo - Llanelli local and a Pontardulais - Victoria service via Dunvant. The GW and LMS considered rationalisation in the 40's with the intention of closing Swansea Victoria. Good that the debate has moved to the options on the busiest piece of the route , ......

Yes, the 5 trains a day timetable introduced in 1964(?) when the service was cut back from Swansea Victoria was base don the traditional level fo throughs ervices along the length of the line.

As you have said, there were plenty of additional services running, particularly on the southern section before rationalisation. We mustn't forget the Carmarthen - Llandeilo line, which brought further business to the route.

Having faster end to end timings would be good but there would be many obstacles to your plan as things stand at present.

In addition to your suggested stops above, as things stand at the moment trains also have compulsory stops to operate crossings in the up direction at Llandybie, Ammanford, Llangadog, llanwrda, Dolau & Bucknell and at Ffaifach in the down direction.

Max line speed is 60 although this is far from extensive. However, there are a lot of "irritating" speed restrictions which if removed could speed up trains, for example, since construction the new Glanrhyd bridge has had a speed limit of 20 which follows immediately a 10mph restriction at the old Glanrhyd station and crossing, train crews have to stop, operate the crossing then proceed to a stop at Llandovery and Llandrindod stations. And there are more. I think the best we could ever expect is a 3h 30m journey time.

This is true. It's a bit unrealistic to expect anythign better than that!

it wouldn’t be RailUKForums were it not for the calls for a lightly used rural line in the most subsidised franchise to be doubled in frequency with old lines being reopened!

I thought we were discussing how we can improve services, not how we can run eight through trains a day!

(i am not in favour of any new lines myself - this would leave Bynea and Llangennech, two stations in greater Llanelli, facing closure!)[/QUOTE]

I think I am right in saying that there is more of a flow from Llandrindod to Salop in the morning and reverse in evening but there is also inward touristy flow into Llandrindod from both directions.

Due to its geographical location Llandrindod is now a popular conference venue and various bodies have made noises about creating a tt to encourage delegates to use the train.

I agree with your analysis. There have been more people from Llandrindod going towards Shrewsbury than Swansea, in my experience.

Also, Llandrindod is a popular place for cofnerences. A colleage attended one there only three weeks ago!

I also gather that Swansea City's recent success has also seen a noticeable flow down and back during match days. again the timings are perfect.

Not sure about Llandod to Salop daily......not that many season tickets sold there. And virtually nothing at anywhere further south.

Again, I agree. The timings are not really suitable for daily commuting into Swansea, but I have noticed a few football fans using the train on a Saturday.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've tried mucking about with some timetables, using the 2010/2011 passenger data as a guide to station popularity.

The problem is that between Knighton and Llandovery you are travelling for around two hours (a four hour round trip) just to serve Llandrindod (with Builth Road and Llanwrtyd being the only other stations between Knighton and Llandovery that see over two passengers per departure - Sugar Loaf only got 84 passengers in the year).

Based on your superior knowledge of the line, would you say that the main trade from Llandrindod was in the Swansea direction or the Shrewsbury direction?

The reason I ask is that, for the two units that currently work the HOWL in a day, you could have a bi-hourly Knighton - Shrewsbury service and a three-hourly Llandovery - Swansea service (therefore providing a much more reliable/ simple service to the busier bits at each end), but I don't know whether the demand from busier stations in the middle (Llandrindod, Builth Road and Llanwrtyd) would be mainly towards Swansea in the morning or towards Shrewsbury in the morning. Or is the demand more about getting those from Swansea/Shrewsbury into Llandridnod? If there were a third unit found for the HOWL, would it be better focussing on the eastbound or westbound demand?

The way anything will be moved forward is looking at the line as to what it can deliver in the future not what the truncated line does at present based on 2 year old footfall figures. Our old friend Mr Petrol is relatively cheap on the world markets due to continued world recession though you wouldn't think it by the way some people react...in will only go one way in future. Also there's talk of reducing single carriageway roads to 40mph speed limits due to accident rates. Both are potential factors in rural rail growth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few points:

Firstly, the DDA requirements will mean that the current practice of running twenty three metre 153s or thirty metre 142s on the HOWL will no longer be feasible after the end of this decade. The minimum length of train suitable for the HOWL would be forty metres. It may not sound like much, but this will push up the operational costs of marginal branch lines like these. 142s and 153s aren’t great units, but they are cheap to run – the DDA requirements (which realistically mean the end for short DMUs like these) may make some rural routes uneconomic. This could be a problem on other lightly used routes (Barton on Humber etc), where the withdrawal of short DMUs could tip the balance.


Good point tbtc a UK wide one. There's also issue of Cambrian once 158's fall apart as there ertms fitted, no one wants to build new DMU's and the big lesson learnt from pilot trial is don't stick ertms gubbings in DMU's with no space for it.
I've tried working out the potential cascades from CP5 electrification schemes and if MML gets 40 Electric sets, WCML replace Voyagers with baby pendolinos as suggested plus other EMU for DMU swaps you just about get a Pacer clearout- not sure you'd manage 153;s though. Lots of big "ifs" in that though.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Derogations are available , discretionary, against DDA requirements - when the time is ready.

The HoW can be random on passenger loadings , some years ago the Sat pm train I caught from Ammanford was 100% empty - the conductor came up and I (despite a free all stations pass) , decided to buy at priv ticket to Swansea "you don't have to he said" , but I felt obliged to clock another ticket sale on his machine.

We ran into Pontardulais where there were around 40 ramblers to get on - so the otherwise ECS was transformed.

Still think it needs to concentrate on the busier south end - with an operating /cost ratio of around 5/1 , it cant really carry on like this.Personal view.

 

[tbtc]

The way anything will be moved forward is looking at the line as to what it can deliver in the future not what the truncated line does at present based on 2 year old footfall figures

Maybe the figures have changed marginally since then, and the 84 journeys that used Sugar Loaf station have gone up by a couple, but unless you can prove significant change then the reality is that most stations get only a couple of passengers boarding - completely uneconomical for heavy rail.

At the moment the service doesn't really suit anyone (commuter, leisure, tourist), but there are some stations that seem more deserving of improvements than others.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Swansea High St - Pontardulais =18.5 miles via Llanelli
Swansea Victoria- Pontardulais = 12.5 miles

Must be only route lengthened by 6 miles I can think of!
My Summer 51 Western Region tt shows 16 trains (UP and DOWN) on a weekday on that section.

 

[tbtc]

Swansea High St - Pontardulais =18.5 miles via Llanelli
Swansea Victoria- Pontardulais = 12.5 miles

Must be only route lengthened by 6 miles I can think of!
My Summer 51 Western Region tt shows 16 trains (UP and DOWN) on a weekday on that section.

I dunno - Sheffield to Penistone went up from around fourteen miles to around twenty four miles when Victoria Station was closed (and the service ran from Sheffield Midland via Barnsley).

 

[martinsh]

Firstly, the DDA requirements will mean that the current practice of running twenty three metre 153s or thirty metre 142s on the HOWL will no longer be feasible after the end of this decade. The minimum length of train suitable for the HOWL would be forty metres.

I didn't realise the DDA specified a minimum length for trains ? [ Though I know the 153 are not compliant ] Can you please explain ?

Class 142 are not used on HOw anyway. [ Usually 150 or 153 ]

 

[Gareth Marston]

I dunno - Sheffield to Penistone went up from around fourteen miles to around twenty four miles when Victoria Station was closed (and the service ran from Sheffield Midland via Barnsley).

can see why patronage is low though cut the service by three quarters and make it longer!

 

[tbtc]

I didn't realise the DDA specified a minimum length for trains ? [ Though I know the 153 are not compliant ] Can you please explain ?

Class 142 are not used on HOw anyway. [ Usually 150 or 153 ]

Once Pacers are withdrawn and 153s are either withdrawn/ tagged into 155/156 sets then there won't be any "short" DMUs. The need to have a DDA toilet (if they are to have a toilet - which a route that takes four hours like the HOWL will require) and other things (wheelchair space etc) which would mean very little seating on a single coach unit.

There won't be any more single coach DMUs built (I can't remember the last two coach EMUs built, though there have been some two coach DMUs built in recent times).

So a route like the HOWL is going to get bigger trains even if it doesn't need them, which is going to make the running costs (fuel, track access charges etc) higher.

Apologies for mentioning 142s, I was under the impression that some did get HOWL use. Regardless, this is an issue that affects a number of quiet/rural lines, where the marginal costs are going to be higher in future.

On a related Welsh note - as any EMUs for the Valley Lines will be at least three coaches long, that's going to make a huge increase in capacity on the Cardiff Bay line - trebling the length of trains (compared to the Bubble Car at least) - at least there will be plenty of seats.

 

[swcovas]

Maybe the figures have changed marginally since then, and the 84 journeys that used Sugar Loaf station have gone up by a couple, but unless you can prove significant change then the reality is that most stations get only a couple of passengers boarding - completely uneconomical for heavy rail.

At the moment the service doesn't really suit anyone (commuter, leisure, tourist), but there are some stations that seem more deserving of improvements than others.

To start throwing out Sugar Loaf as an example of poor patronage is ridiculous!!! Sugar Loaf existed in steam days purely as point where locos were dropped off after banking up from Llandovery. Although there were 2 platforms it was never in the public tt. It was only opened during the 80s for the summer sunday Rambler trains which operated and at some point it was decided that it may as well stay open in the year round public tt. It's there only for someone who wants a walk and some of the guards I have spoken to tell me that the figure is probably false as passengers often have tickets to Llanwrtyd or Cynghordy.

So forget Sugar Loaf!!! As you say some stations are more deserving which is what this campaign (as mentioned in my initial post!) is all about!!

 

[tbtc]

To start throwing out Sugar Loaf as an example of poor patronage is ridiculous!!! Sugar Loaf existed in steam days purely as point where locos were dropped off after banking up from Llandovery. Although there were 2 platforms it was never in the public tt. It was only opened during the 80s for the summer sunday Rambler trains which operated and at some point it was decided that it may as well stay open in the year round public tt. It's there only for someone who wants a walk and some of the guards I have spoken to tell me that the figure is probably false as passengers often have tickets to Llanwrtyd or Cynghordy.

So forget Sugar Loaf!!! As you say some stations are more deserving which is what this campaign (as mentioned in my initial post!) is all about!!

I mention it because Gareth complained that my passenger figures were two years out of date (the most recent ones I have available to me) - I'm making the point that with such low numbers at a lot of stations (several have only around a thousand "journeys" a year - i.e. 500 departures a year) mean that any changes in passenger numbers since 2010 won't have been *that* significant.

 

[swcovas]

[QUOTE

We ran into Pontardulais where there were around 40 ramblers to get on - so the otherwise ECS was transformed.

Still think it needs to concentrate on the busier south end - with an operating /cost ratio of around 5/1 , it cant really carry on like this.Personal view.[/QUOTE]

I agree this can happen but as I mentioned in an earlier post last sat (28 July) the 153 was loaded to about 90 leaving Llanelli.......no groups of 40 ramblers just "normals". There ARE people who want to use the line!

As to the 5/1 ratio this is the result with the current tt so lets look at ways to imnprove it!

 

[Greenback]

Swansea High St - Pontardulais =18.5 miles via Llanelli
Swansea Victoria- Pontardulais = 12.5 miles

Must be only route lengthened by 6 miles I can think of!
My Summer 51 Western Region tt shows 16 trains (UP and DOWN) on a weekday on that section.

The southern section of the line was pretty busy in steam days. There were the local passenger services between Swansea Victoria and Pontardulais, plus longer semi fast workigns to Llandeilo and Llandovery, as well as the through trains (including Saturday extras) and plenty of freight serving the many industries south of Ammanford.

I have a book on the line somewhere that contains extracts from the working timetable post World War 2, and the line was quite intensively worked at the southern end.

As to the 5/1 ratio this is the result with the current tt so lets look at ways to imnprove it!

I agree. I am sure that part of the reason for the ratio is the cost of running empty trains at 0500!

 

[swcovas]

I mention it because Gareth complained that my passenger figures were two years out of date (the most recent ones I have available to me) - I'm making the point that with such low numbers at a lot of stations (several have only around a thousand "journeys" a year - i.e. 500 departures a year) mean that any changes in passenger numbers since 2010 won't have been *that* significant.

I undestand where you're coming from. Yes, it is a rural line with lots of little used stations (and there are lots of other stations throughout the country with similar passenger numbers) but the whole point of this is that the line DOES exist so lets look at ways to use it better and increase passenger numbers. I keep repeating that the potential does exist but not with the current tt.

I sometimes feel that I am the only one who feels passionately about it so wish that the Chairman or others of the Heart of Wales Line Forum or Trav association could contribute someting to this!!!!

 

[bargoed bert]

A couple of points:
1. In the latest HOWLTA Newsletter there is an explanation of how HOWLTA/Heart of Wales Line Forum is undertaking a study that consults users; stakeholders; local businesses etc on what they want from the line. This piece of work is looking at other ways via 'localism/devolution' that the route can be better exploited. I think the same info might also be on the Heart of Wales Line Forum website.
2. The same two bodies referred to above have been trying to get WAG/WG funding for an extra thro train each way for several years. The Business Case was done a few years back but despite being allegedly 'reasonable' has not been progressed by WG & their update to the National Transport Plan last Autumn, shunted its consideration beyond 2015. This is a pity as the extra train would make the 'timetable offer' significantly more attractive to prospective users.