Heavy trams as Pacer and Sprinter replacement

[Yew]

I think that the (mainly Pacer operated) Sheffield - Lincoln service would be more suited to upgrade to a 156 (to recognise the longer distance nature) than downgrading to a "heavy tram" / "tram train"

I agree that sprinters would be good for this route, however I think that it would depend what these heavy trams are like, to if they are an upgrade or a downgrade, if it is a lightweight body with bogies and suspension. Then if it was outfitted right, we could be looking at something on a par or possibly better than a sprinter for passanger comfort. My main worry would be life, are they specced to last 40 years? Like it seems most DMU's are expected to run for?

 

[tbtc]

I agree that sprinters would be good for this route, however I think that it would depend what these heavy trams are like, to if they are an upgrade or a downgrade, if it is a lightweight body with bogies and suspension. Then if it was outfitted right, we could be looking at something on a par or possibly better than a sprinter for passanger comfort. My main worry would be life, are they specced to last 40 years? Like it seems most DMU's are expected to run for?

I appreciate that this kind of thread will get into an argument about whether a dumbed down train is better than a souped up tram (when they are basically two sides of the one coin), but anything with "tram" in its name seems unsuited to a route almost fifty miles long (Sheffield to Lincoln).

 

[YorkshireBear]

I appreciate that this kind of thread will get into an argument about whether a dumbed down train is better than a souped up tram (when they are basically two sides of the one coin), but anything with "tram" in its name seems unsuited to a route almost fifty miles long (Sheffield to Lincoln).

I would like to say i was trying to suggest a lightweight DMU not a heavy tram, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[Greybeard33]

A heavy tram is defined as being able to operate on National Rail infrastructure without any changes to infrastructure but is unlikely to be able to operate on street running sections.

With this definition, a key difference between a "heavy tram" and a "tram-train", at least in the UK context, is the wheel profile. A heavy tram must have the standard Network Rail wheel profile to operate on NR without any changes to infrastructure. Consequently it cannot use on-street sections of existing tramways because the wheel flange will not fit in the groove of standard grooved tram rail.

A tram-train must have thinner wheel flanges to fit in standard grooved tram track on-street. Consequently, even if it meets heavy rail crashworthiness requirements, it needs infrastructure changes on NR, to fit raised check rails to all points and crossings (as on Manchester Metrolink). All types of heavy rail vehicles that share the tram-train route then require gauge clearance for the raised check rails.

 

[WatcherZero]

I appreciate that this kind of thread will get into an argument about whether a dumbed down train is better than a souped up tram (when they are basically two sides of the one coin), but anything with "tram" in its name seems unsuited to a route almost fifty miles long (Sheffield to Lincoln).

In the 1920's in Germany and the USA street running single rail car trams did several hour routes from the city out to quite distant towns and villages in their commuter area.

 

[ainsworth74]

So the standard we should be aiming for is a 1920s era US street car

 

[Kali]

So the standard we should be aiming for is a 1920s era US street car

The longer routes could aim for the 1940s...

 

[150001]

Would the Bombardier Talent 2 for DB count? I wouldn't mind some of them!

 

[pemma]

My main worry would be life, are they specced to last 40 years? Like it seems most DMU's are expected to run for?

DMUs are expected to last for at least 30 years in most cases. It's EMUs that are expected to last for at least 40 years.

The 2019 DDA deadline was set as the 30th anniversary of the class 158. If they were expected to last beyond that they would need life extension work and then full DDA compliance could be taken in to consideration at the same time.

 

[LE Greys]

I agree that sprinters would be good for this route, however I think that it would depend what these heavy trams are like, to if they are an upgrade or a downgrade, if it is a lightweight body with bogies and suspension. Then if it was outfitted right, we could be looking at something on a par or possibly better than a sprinter for passanger comfort. My main worry would be life, are they specced to last 40 years? Like it seems most DMU's are expected to run for?

As would I. There is even an available source for them. Assuming some 158s are going to be displaced by Scottish electrification plans, then they could go to EMT, replacing their remaining 156s and freeing them for cascade. If we went for the tram-based option, I would be concerned that the line would end up lumbered with a 'quick-fix' option for several decades.

 

[pemma]

As would I. There is even an available source for them. Assuming some 158s are going to be displaced by Scottish electrification plans, then they could go to EMT, replacing their remaining 156s and freeing them for cascade.

But then the 153s might be eliminated. (Porterbrook have claimed it would be non-economically viable to make them DDA complaint being only single carriage trains.) So the surplus 156s in your suggestion might be needed to directly/indirectly replace 153s.

 

[D365]

I'd love to see more PPM (Parry People Mover) units as replacement for 153s, 121s and other DMUs on branch lines. Their tram-train concepts are rather interesting too.

 

[tbtc]

I'd love to see more PPM (Parry People Mover) units as replacement for 153s, 121s and other DMUs on branch lines. Their tram-train concepts are rather interesting too.

The problem is that there aren't a lot of self contained branches where a single coach unit works (as per the recent FGW thread) - about the only exception is the Cardiff Bay line which is getting wired.

Most other lines that only require a single unit do have some interworking with other services (or at least share the same tracks), like EMT's Lincolnshire area services or the Barton line, and I don't think a 139 would be crashworthy?

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd love to see more PPM (Parry People Mover) units as replacement for 153s, 121s and other DMUs on branch lines.

Unless they can significantly uprate their existing designs (in terms of speed, capacity and comfort) then I'd suggest that a PPM is in no way a suitable replacement for most 153, 121 and any other DMU services.

 

[D365]

The problem is that there aren't a lot of self contained branches where a single coach unit works (as per the recent FGW thread) - about the only exception is the Cardiff Bay line which is getting wired.

Cardiff Bay's being done? I wonder what will work that, an ePPM perhaps? Aylesbury-Princes Risborough is being electrified for EWR, if I've read it correctly. Services will most likely revert to multi-carriage EMUs though.

Unless they can significantly uprate their existing designs (in terms of speed, capacity and comfort) then I'd suggest that a PPM is in no way a suitable replacement for most 153, 121 and any other DMU services.

A collaboration with another manufacturer, perhaps? Their speciality is low-speed branch lines, so I'm not suggesting main line services. There aren't that many passenger operating branch lines in the UK at present.

 

[krus_aragon]

Cardiff Bay's being done? I wonder what will work that, an ePPM perhaps?

It's been suggested that at least some of the Bay services will be reintegrated with the main network: the planned extra services to Caerphilly will be running down to the Bay instead of Central.

(That should make the departure boards at Ty Hywel (National Assembly) a bit more useful: The board there for Cardiff Bay just lists endless services to 'Queen St only'.)

 

[D1009]

It's been suggested that at least some of the Bay services will be reintegrated with the main network: the planned extra services to Caerphilly will be running down to the Bay instead of Central.

(That should make the departure boards at Ty Hywel (National Assembly) a bit more useful: The board there for Cardiff Bay just lists endless services to 'Queen St only'.)

This could happen sooner rather than later as the line between Queen St and Central is likely to remain closed for the next 2 weeks !