help and opinions on charge RE: privilege card

[Genki]

Hi everyone,
I'm new on here and wanted to ask your opinion on something.

A member of my family works for NETWORK Rail and so we've got dependant priv cards.
My daughter was travelling a couple of weeks ago, and the ticket inspector took her card off of her and asked her for a word. He said he just wanted a closer look at the ticket as he didn't know what it was, and let her sit back down again.
However he came back a second time and asked to speak to her again.
This time he took the card away and said that he was taking it because it was a 'travel irregularity' because some of the boxes were filled in with pencil instead of pen. Up until this point I wasn't aware this was such an issue, I knew it was preferable to write in pen, but she is an art student so all she ever carries with her are pencils, and as a personal flaw she is very disorganised so half the time she forgets to bring a pen with her whenever she goes anywhere.
Though on this journey she had filled it in with pen and most of the previous dates had been written in pen aswell.

We have never had this problem before, if a conductor has seen it written in pencil he or she would just go over it in pen.
I can understand why it has become an issue, she should have written them all in pen, and it could be seen as her trying to fraud the company, but she's not that sort of person, she had no intent to do such a thing and she really appreciates this privilege and wouldn't intentionally risk that. She was incredibly upset as she was then stranded in the north of England and we had to pick her up as she had no money and no card.

Today we got a letter through saying that it has been reported under byelaw 20 (altering a ticket with the intent thhat the Operator or any other railway Operator be defrauded or prejudiced) and she has been invited to attend an interview to give her the opportunity to explain her actions before taking it forward.

We're unsure about what will happen from this, she is incredibly upset herself as she feels she's been criminalised. She's never been in any kind of incident or trouble like this in her life. Does anyone have any advice or any insight into this matter? We appreciate that she was naive and silly, but any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry to hear of your predicament.

Who is the letter from exactly?

 

[Genki]

Thankyou very much, AlterEgo
The letter is from the Prosecution Department at East Midlands Trains

 

[Wolf_359]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I am a Conductor on the railway, so this is my take on the problem.

This is from the T&C for the use of tickets.

"Alterations to the date entered are not permitted under any circumstances; and dates must also not be overwritten. This is clearly indicated on the Staff Travel Card. If you make a mistake, that allocation of free travel is forfeited, the error must be blocked out, and the correct date entered in the next pair of boxes."

Unfortunately if the date is written in pencil then there is nothing to stop the date being erased an the box reused.

You don't say how long it was between the ticket being withdrawn & the letter for the interview. However I would assume that the Revenue Department of the TOC involved has had time to examine the ticket for evidence of changes. I am also making an assumption that the person who withdrew the pass has spoken to your daughter about writing in pencil before.

From a personal point of view I would give a warning for the 1st time I came across this, then if I came across it again I would cross out two boxes and write the date in the next box & then on a third offence I would then withdraw the pass, and report it to the Revenue Department.


The outcome could be any of the following.

A. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination will be accepted. Then no further action will be taken.

B. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination is not accepted, and her pass will be permanently withdrawn.

C. As above but with prosecution for ticket fraud.

D. Worst case. As above but everyone in the family loses their Priv Travel, and she is prosecuted for ticket fraud.

I am sorry the news is not better but misuse of staff travel is dealt with in a very harsh manner.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wolf_359 has basically summarised the options available to EMT quite succinctly.

If I were her I'd issue a profuse apology and try and get the matter settled amicably. I'd say that she was unaware exactly of her requirements to fill in the boxes in pen, not pencil, and that she is very sorry and has certainly learnt a lesson.

 

[Genki]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I am a Conductor on the railway, so this is my take on the problem.

This is from the T&C for the use of tickets.

"Alterations to the date entered are not permitted under any circumstances; and dates must also not be overwritten. This is clearly indicated on the Staff Travel Card. If you make a mistake, that allocation of free travel is forfeited, the error must be blocked out, and the correct date entered in the next pair of boxes."

Unfortunately if the date is written in pencil then there is nothing to stop the date being erased an the box reused.

You don't say how long it was between the ticket being withdrawn & the letter for the interview. However I would assume that the Revenue Department of the TOC involved has had time to examine the ticket for evidence of changes. I am also making an assumption that the person who withdrew the pass has spoken to your daughter before about writing in pencil before.

From a personal point of view I would give a warning for the 1st time I came across this, then if I came across it again I would cross out two boxes and write the date in the next box & then on a third offence I would then withdraw the pass, and report it to the Revenue Department.


The outcome could be any of the following.

A. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination will be accepted. Then no further action will be taken.

B. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination is not accepted, and her pass will be permanently withdrawn.

C. As above but with prosecution for ticket fraud.

D. Worst case. As above but everyone in the family loses their Priv Travel, and she is prosecuted for ticket fraud.

I am sorry the news is not better but misuse of staff travel is dealt with in a very harsh manner.

thanks Wolf_359, your reply was really helpful! She hasn't come across that conductor before and hasn't had any other conductor issue her a warning or crossed out any boxes. It took less than a week for them to send the letter after the incident.
we can understand that because it was written in pencil she could potentially have erased and rewritten dates, but she hasn't done that, so hopefully if we explain and -as AlterEgo suggested- try to apologise and settle things amicably they will be sympathetic.
Thank you both very much for posting I really appreciate your input and help

 

[AlterEgo]

If you hang around here there will no doubt be a few more knowledgeable gents who may be able to provide an alternative, or perhaps advice based on more experience.

 

[Wolf_359]

Well said AlterEgo.

The letter of apology is the best way to go.

Also try to get your daughter to remain calm at the interview & not lose her temper with anybody as it will not help things.

 

[Genki]

If you hang around here there will no doubt be a few more knowledgeable gents who may be able to provide an alternative, or perhaps advice based on more experience.

i'll be sure to hang around, we need all the insight we can get really! thankyou

 

[TTI]

RAIL STAFF TRAVEL LIMITED
FACILITY RULES
5.2 STAFF TRAVEL CARD AND FREE TRAVEL
5.2.1 Description Of Use
The free travel portion of the Staff Travel Card incorporates a number of blank boxes which represent occasions of free travel. When the date of journey is entered into one of these boxes this entitles the holder to free travel between all stations on the National Rail Network, certain LU stations, on Tyne & Wear Metro Services (unless otherwise endorsed) and, in some cases, on certain Stena Sealink Shipping Services.

The Staff Travel Card is only valid when presented with a Photo Identity Card except in the case of retired Safeguarded Employees, widow(er)s, and their dependants, also children of active Safeguarded Employees under the age of 16 years. If Staff Travel Cards are presented without valid photo identity cards a ticket irregularity report will be submitted and the appropriate public fare will be charged unless the holder can produce documentary proof of entitlement when an amount equal to the public administrative charge, or the actual fare when lower, will be subsequently collected through Eligible Employers. The same charge will apply when one or more members of the family travelling at the time are unable to produce valid photo identity cards. Where the public fare charged exceeds the public administrative charge, and entitlement is subsequently confirmed, a refund of the fare paid may be granted less the administrative charge.

Each date endorsed upon a Staff Travel Card will permit the holder free travel on that day, together with free travel up to midnight on the following day. In addition to this, free travel will be permitted on overnight journeys which start between 22.00 and 24.00 on the previous day to that entered on the card.

It should be noted that the production of a Staff Travel Card for free travel which has not been dated, will result in ticket examining staff cancelling the next available box with a cross and the holder of the card being requested to complete the following box in the presence of the ticket examiner. If a card is presented wrongly dated, ticket examining staff will cross out that entry and the holder will be requested to complete the following space in the presence of the ticket examiner. If there are no further empty boxes remaining on the card in the circumstances outlined, the matter will be reported as a travel irregularity and the appropriate public fare for the journey will be payable.

also

5.10 ALTERATIONS TO STAFF TRAVEL CARDS
Holders of Staff Travel Cards are expressly forbidden from making any alteration thereto and anyone doing so will be liable to prosecution or withdrawal of facilities and, if an active railway employee, to instant dismissal by their Eligible Employer.

see also Travel Irregularities Guidelines:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/NewArticles/Web_TI_Guidelines_040211.pdf

 

[Genki]

It should be noted that the production of a Staff Travel Card for free travel which has not been dated, will result in ticket examining staff cancelling the next available box with a cross and the holder of the card being requested to complete the following box in the presence of the ticket examiner. If a card is presented wrongly dated, ticket examining staff will cross out that entry and the holder will be requested to complete the following space in the presence of the ticket examiner. If there are no further empty boxes remaining on the card in the circumstances outlined, the matter will be reported as a travel irregularity and the appropriate public fare for the journey will be payable.[/I]

also

5.10 ALTERATIONS TO STAFF TRAVEL CARDS
Holders of Staff Travel Cards are expressly forbidden from making any alteration thereto and anyone doing so will be liable to prosecution or withdrawal of facilities and, if an active railway employee, to instant dismissal by their Eligible Employer.

see also Travel Irregularities Guidelines:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/NewArticles/Web_TI_Guidelines_040211.pdf

From the link you gave, I found this:
"EXAMPLES OF CASES WHICH ARE CONSIDERED AS INVOLVING DISHONESTY
 Altering, writing over, erasing or any other tampering with dated boxes on a Staff Travel Card."

Would you say that our case would be viewed as an example of dishonesty? or do you think they would view it as a case where disonesty wasn't involved? Because no boxes were tampered with or altered, it's just some were filled in with pencil rather than pen...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well said AlterEgo.

The letter of apology is the best way to go.

Also try to get your daughter to remain calm at the interview & not lose her temper with anybody as it will not help things.

I think she's scared rather than angry at the situation really, her card is very important for her to be able to travel to university and back home, if it weren't for the card she probrably wouldn't be able to afford it very often.

I think we'll bring a letter along to the interview rather than sending it off so she can hand it to them personally

 

[sprite]

I had a Northern rail guard tell me to get guards to fill it in for me due to my handwriting, against the regulations I know - tried it and the next guard was having none of it, she was really offensive about it and struck off a box as per the rules and called me a "persistent offender" when I had never seen her before. I complained to Northern, whilst stressing I accepted that it was perfectly valid for her to strike off a box, about the way she just snatched it off me, walked off then came back 10 minutes later and didn't explain anything until she next came through and I asked and explained about the guard I had a few weeks before. Never heard back.

Best of luck though I know mine is invaluable for traveling to visit my girlfriend when we are at uni (Manchester to Edinburgh). An idea may be for to politely ask them to provide evidence of tampering/altering the dates at her interview. Surely the paper would be marked in a way indicative of being rubbed out then refilled if she had.

[EDIT]
Just saw above this

if a card is presented wrongly dated, ticket examining staff will cross out that entry and the holder will be requested to complete the following space in the presence of the ticket examiner.

She filled it for me...

 

[Genki]

I had a Northern rail guard tell me to get guards to fill it in for me due to my handwriting, against the regulations I know - tried it and the next guard was having none of it, she was really offensive about it and struck off a box as per the rules and called me a "persistent offender" when I had never seen her before. I complained to Northern, whilst stressing I accepted that it was perfectly valid for her to strike off a box, about the way she just snatched it off me, walked off then came back 10 minutes later and didn't explain anything until she next came through and I asked and explained about the guard I had a few weeks before. Never heard back.

Best of luck though I know mine is invaluable for traveling to visit my girlfriend when we are at uni (Manchester to Edinburgh). An idea may be for to politely ask them to provide evidence of tampering/altering the dates at her interview. Surely the paper would be marked in a way indicative of being rubbed out then refilled if she had.

[EDIT]
Just saw above this
She filled it for me...

I do wonder if some ticket guards are unhappy about people having privilege cards because they stopped giving them out a while ago didn't they? I have had some very rude ticket guards aswell who have made me feel very uncomfortable. There was one occassion I got the date wrong and instead of crossing out 1 box, he crossed out 4!
My daughter also uses her card to see her boyfriend during holiday times (London to Derby) so it's important to her for that aswell as they're both students so can't afford tickets all the time.

I think the best we can hope for is that they'll understand at the interview that it was just an accident and no fraud was intended

 

[Yew]

I would say the filling out a box in pencil (which i gather it says nothing about pen) would be somthing very hard to link to fraud.

I have a knife in my kitchen. But without forensic evidence/cctv, The police wouldnt arrest me for murder.

 

[Flamingo]

Given that the boxes would be filled in in sequence, the fact that earlier boxes were filled in with pencil should not be an issue, if the most recent box was filled in by pen, and some previous boxes were also filled in by pen.

Keep calm, and explain that the box was filled in with the first available writing implement when it was being used.

Was it an earlier box where the guard had gone over it with a pen when written in pencil that is the issue?

 

[Ferret]

Given that the boxes would be filled in in sequence, the fact that earlier boxes were filled in with pencil should not be an issue, if the most recent box was filled in by pen, and some previous boxes were also filled in by pen.

Keep calm, and explain that the box was filled in with the first available writing implement when it was being used.

Was it an earlier box where the guard had gone over it with a pen when written in pencil that is the issue?

Hmmmm, I have alarm bells ringing here. Merely having some boxes filled in in pencil does not constitute altering dates in boxes to gain fraudulent travel, but yet EMT are still prosecuting under Byelaw 10. I find it hard to believe that EMT are proceeding to a prosecution without some hard evidence of a breach of that byelaw. I have to say I'm a little bit suspicious here.....i

 

[Genki]

Hmmmm, I have alarm bells ringing here. Merely having some boxes filled in in pencil does not constitute altering dates in boxes to gain fraudulent travel, but yet EMT are still prosecuting under Byelaw 10. I find it hard to believe that EMT are proceeding to a prosecution without some hard evidence of a breach of that byelaw. I have to say I'm a little bit suspicious here.....i

You'd think that, but it's literally that some of the boxes are done in pencil. One or two of them are gone over in pen from when a guard has offered to go over it in pen for her, so maybe that might be a cause for concern for them. we'll have to wait and see i suppose
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given that the boxes would be filled in in sequence, the fact that earlier boxes were filled in with pencil should not be an issue, if the most recent box was filled in by pen, and some previous boxes were also filled in by pen.

Keep calm, and explain that the box was filled in with the first available writing implement when it was being used.

Was it an earlier box where the guard had gone over it with a pen when written in pencil that is the issue?

yep, most of the boxes are filled in with pen! fingers crossed they'll give us a fair hearing and be sympathetic towards us! yes i think that might be the issue, that one or two boxes are done in pencil but gone over in pen from where a guard has offered to go over it for her

 

[Flamingo]

Turn up, put your case. I don't know if it's anything the employees union might be able to help with, as it's got the potential for serious repercussions.

 

[Genki]

Turn up, put your case. I don't know if it's anything the employees union might be able to help with, as it's got the potential for serious repercussions.

I've not been notified of any potential repercussions, they've not told us anything at all about that so we just don't know what to expect, which is nerve wracking in itself

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have to say that whenever I have seen date boxes filled in in pencil there is normally at least one other box somewhere on the card which has been altered / overwritten.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do wonder if some ticket guards are unhappy about people having privilege cards because they stopped giving them out a while ago didn't they?

Yes. If it "staff" or "employee" on it I'm not bothered, but "retired", "spouse" or "dependent" cards always get scrutinised in detail. I insist these ones are filled in (and I will cancel a box if it hasn't) and the slightest error will result in me withdrawing the card and reporting it. I have no objection in principle to the idea of free travel, but as a current employee I don't get it, so take great offence to those that abuse what they get - especially when they are not even staff at all.

 

[Ferret]

I've not been notified of any potential repercussions, they've not told us anything at all about that so we just don't know what to expect, which is nerve wracking in itself

Well, there's the potential for loss of travel facilities for yourself as well as your dependent. This could be a very serious matter indeed. Getting some proper legal advice may be a good option right now...

 

[junglejames]

This seems quite strange. Like Ferret says, nothing points to her having done anything wrong. The rules dont say you cant use pencil. Just that you cant alter, overwrite, or in any other way tamper with, the card. So if its true that she has never altered any of the dates, then what are EMT trying?
When you get to the interview, get her to ask to see the priv card again (you said the guard withdrew it?). After it being admitted to here that some guards do not like certain people getting priv cards with boxes, i would want to check and ensure the guard did not alter the card after he withdrew it.
Then ask them what the problem is with the card. If its purely the pencil thing, then they dont seem to have a leg to stand on. If me, Id take a copy of the rules, so i could show them. Dont know how well that'll go down though.
Id then just keep reiterating that i had done nothing wrong according to the rules, and that i had never tried altering it.

If they bring up the fact that some pencil boxes have been overwritten, then explain it was previous guards that had done it. I once had an LU ticketseller (id been mistakenly told i could use it on LU) Illegally scrawl over my PRIV card once

 

[Ferret]

Junglejames - it's gone way beyond what you might call 'jealous guard' territory when the Prosecutions department get involved. I can understand that writing in pencil would arouse suspicion (and I would advise anyone with boxes to use ink - no argument then is there?), but that's not necessarily evidence of wrongdoing. I have to say it doesn't seem to quite add up from where I'm sitting - either EMT have pressed the over-react button (which I'm not ruling out), or there's more to it.

 

[junglejames]

Junglejames - it's gone way beyond what you might call 'jealous guard' territory when the Prosecutions department get involved. I can understand that writing in pencil would arouse suspicion (and I would advise anyone with boxes to use ink - no argument then is there?), but that's not necessarily evidence of wrongdoing. I have to say it doesn't seem to quite add up from where I'm sitting - either EMT have pressed the over-react button (which I'm not ruling out), or there's more to it.

Yes it does seem to have gone past the jealous guard stage, but id still want to check he hadnt fiddled with it himself before handing it in, so he could get her into trouble. Not saying he would, but id want to check. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Ferret]

Better safe than sorry.

Yup - agreed, especially when the 'sorry' option out of those two could be a right royal shafting. Am I right in thinking it's possible for the emplyee to face disciplinary action if a dependent misuses travel facilities?

 

[Wolf_359]

I do know of a case involving a staff member being hauled in by EMT over alleged misuse of Travel Facilities. When it came down to it there was no misuse but it went to the same stage as this. After the interview it was dropped.

There are some post April 1996 Guards/Ticket Inspectors who just love to take passes off of those that have them. I knew of a Guard who went out of his way to take staff passes off of pre April 1996 on any pretext. Eventually he was dismissed for abuse of his position.

Yes it does seem to have gone past the jealous guard stage,.

I agree, but unfortunately once it has gone to the Revenue Department they have to investigate it, even if it turns out to be a false allegation. They only have the TIR report from the guard to go by until the interview.

 

[Ferret]

Regarding that employee's dismissal - rightly so too - you've got to have just cause for removal of passes! If there's no reasonable grounds to suspect anything then what are you achieving by withdrawing the pass?!

 

[Genki]

This is why it's all so worrying, we're not sure why it's gone so far. The guard on the train didn't directly say to her "you've been altering your card" he just said that she had been writing in pencil and she wasn't supposed to do it because it could mean she'd been abusing the card. Apparently he wasn't very nice to her anyway... maybe it could be a slight case of jealous guard and he might have overexaggerated the situation in his report. I thought that with any travel irregularity it came to this stage? Apparently I'm wrong, gathering from what you are all saying!

...This could be a very serious matter indeed. Getting some proper legal advice may be a good option right now...

Yup - agreed, especially when the 'sorry' option out of those two could be a right royal shafting. Am I right in thinking it's possible for the emplyee to face disciplinary action if a dependent misuses travel facilities?

Would you have any idea what sort of outcome could happen? I don't think that staff can lose their job unless it's actually them that's done it from what I read in some of the documents suggested to me on here, and from what Wolf_359 mentioned it would be one of these outcomes:
"A. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination will be accepted. Then no further action will be taken.

B. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination is not accepted, and her pass will be permanently withdrawn.

C. As above but with prosecution for ticket fraud.

D. Worst case. As above but everyone in the family loses their Priv Travel, and she is prosecuted for ticket fraud."

Could there be something beyond that? And what sort of prosecution are we talking with ticket fraud? we are so in the dark about this!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By the way from looking at some of our paperwork and talking to another member i've realised my husband works for Network Rail rather than National Rail so there's even less we can do about it RE talking to other staff

 

[Ferret]

Would you have any idea what sort of outcome could happen? I don't think that staff can lose their job unless it's actually them that's done it from what I read in some of the documents suggested to me on here, and from what Wolf_359 mentioned it would be one of these outcomes:
"A. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination will be accepted. Then no further action will be taken.

B. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination is not accepted, and her pass will be permanently withdrawn.

C. As above but with prosecution for ticket fraud.

D. Worst case. As above but everyone in the family loses their Priv Travel, and she is prosecuted for ticket fraud."

Could there be something beyond that? And what sort of prosecution are we talking with ticket fraud? we are so in the dark about this!

Right, I've just been doing some digging. The following link is very much required reading for you!

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/NewArticles/Web_TI_Guidelines_040211.pdf

This tells you exactly what penalties could be invoked. In particular, these parts are relevant:

EXTENT OF THE WITHDRAWAL OF FACILITIES IN CASES OF DISHONESTY
1. Where an active employee is the offender, travel facilities for the employee, spouses/partners and dependent children will be permanently withdrawn and, where appropriate, they should be dismissed under the disciplinary procedure.
2. Where only spouses/partners or dependent children are involved, travel facilities will be permanently withdrawn only from the offenders (ie not from the employee).

As for prosecution - your original post mentions Byelaw 20, rather than a prosecution under the Regulation of the Railways Act. Railway Byelaw offences are all Strict Liability matters (no need for intent to be proven). DaveNewcastle of this parish may be able to assist with relevant advice for this, assuming it gets that far. Maybe send a PM to him prior to attending the interview? As far as I'm aware, the likely penalty under Byelaw 20 is a fine, and a requirement to pay the original fare due.

I hope this helps you, please keep us all posted!

 

[scrapy]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I am a Conductor on the railway, so this is my take on the problem.

This is from the T&C for the use of tickets.

"Alterations to the date entered are not permitted under any circumstances; and dates must also not be overwritten. This is clearly indicated on the Staff Travel Card. If you make a mistake, that allocation of free travel is forfeited, the error must be blocked out, and the correct date entered in the next pair of boxes."

Unfortunately if the date is written in pencil then there is nothing to stop the date being erased an the box reused.

You don't say how long it was between the ticket being withdrawn & the letter for the interview. However I would assume that the Revenue Department of the TOC involved has had time to examine the ticket for evidence of changes. I am also making an assumption that the person who withdrew the pass has spoken to your daughter about writing in pencil before.

From a personal point of view I would give a warning for the 1st time I came across this, then if I came across it again I would cross out two boxes and write the date in the next box & then on a third offence I would then withdraw the pass, and report it to the Revenue Department.


The outcome could be any of the following.

A. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination will be accepted. Then no further action will be taken.

B. Your daughter will be interviewed and her explaination is not accepted, and her pass will be permanently withdrawn.

C. As above but with prosecution for ticket fraud.

D. Worst case. As above but everyone in the family loses their Priv Travel, and she is prosecuted for ticket fraud.

I am sorry the news is not better but misuse of staff travel is dealt with in a very harsh manner.

D should not happen. There are no grounds for prosecution as no act of fraud has taken place. It would be easy to prove a pass has not been tampered with by looking at it under different lights and forensically testing for eraser markings. I am aware of another TOC who has used this method to prove in court a season ticket HAD been tampered with/fraudulenty produced. Remember it is up to East Midlands Trains to prove guilt, not the OP to prove innocence.

IF there is a written rule that markings have to be in pen, then I would put that down as a mistake filling the pass in and the day should have been voided and the next box filled in under the rules. If there is no written rule that the box must be filled in pen not pencil then the OP has met the criteria and if the RPI/guard wants to go over it in pen, fair enough but no rule has been broken so the pass should not be confiscated unless the RPI/guard has reason to believe the ticket HAS ALREADY been tampered with. Even if boxes are filled in pen, whats to stop a 6 being made an 8 or a 1 a 7? Will this RPI/guard confiscate any pass with a 6 on it just in case it gets tampered with.

I feel the OP should talk with their manager/own TOCs revenue department for advice. Revenue departments do talk so they may see the case quietly dropped.