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Thorpe-le-Soken to Chinley Super Off Peak validity out of Euston

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oddiesjack

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I have a friend who is trying to get back from Thorpe-Le-soken (TLS) to Chinley (CLY), after visiting her very poorly mother. I helped her get best prices for the journey originally, but East Midlands trains eventually sold her a pair of tickets , out via Sheffield & St Pancras, back via Euston & Piccadilly.

when later she spoke to EMR staff regarding the purpose of her visit, they very kindly upgraded her to super off peak so if necessary she could stay longer, as long as she returns within the month.

So, she now coming home tomorrow (sunday) and has her ticket showing TLS to CLY , via EUS & MAN and some sort of authority to Super Offpeak.

can she use this on Virgin? If not what other options does she have?
 
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alistairlees

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Exactly what ticket from Thorpe-le-Soken to Chinley does she hold? Can you get her to provide a photo of it? Or just describe the exact type, dates etc. Same goes for the authority to upgrade to super off peak. Presumably that is actually an excess, but it’s not very clear here. It’s hard to answer without full information. For what it’s worth, it very probably is valid as there are no off peak restrictions on this route on Sundays. But it’s not possible to be totally certain.
 

oddiesjack

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Thanks for reply , Alistair. I have already asked her for this extra info, as that is why I was struggling to give her advice and asked here for guidance, but she hasn't got back to me yet.
 

Tetchytyke

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They've probably sold/given her an excess to the super offpeak. If the original ticket was an Advance (specific train only) the excessed ticket will- theoretically- still be tied to that TOC. So if she was due to come back via Manchester she'll still be allowed to.
 

Belperpete

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They've probably sold/given her an excess to the super offpeak. If the original ticket was an Advance (specific train only) the excessed ticket will- theoretically- still be tied to that TOC. So if she was due to come back via Manchester she'll still be allowed to.
Assuming a Super off-peak ticket Euston to Manchester is theoretically valid on VTWC, what VTWC trains would it actually be valid on? According to the VTWC web-site (link below), Super Off-Peak tickets are "for travel between London, Birmingham, and Wolverhampton". VTWC don't appear to offer any validity for Super off-peak tickets on trains to Manchester.
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets/off-peak
 

Haywain

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Assuming a Super off-peak ticket Euston to Manchester is theoretically valid on VTWC, what VTWC trains would it actually be valid on? According to the VTWC web-site (link below), Super Off-Peak tickets are "for travel between London, Birmingham, and Wolverhampton". VTWC don't appear to offer any validity for Super off-peak tickets on trains to Manchester.
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets/off-peak
According to restriction 2C, which applies for journeys via Euston, the ticket may be used on trains departing Euston from 09:26 to 15:00 and from 18:45 to 04:29.
 

Belperpete

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According to restriction 2C, which applies for journeys via Euston, the ticket may be used on trains departing Euston from 09:26 to 15:00 and from 18:45 to 04:29.
Hmm, that's interesting. If you try and book a Manchester to Euston ticket, the only super off-peak fares offered are "WMR/LNR only" (or "via Chesterfield" which I assume are via St Pancras). However, if you book Chinley to Thorpe-le-Soken, super off-peak fares are available, valid on VTWC between Manchester and Euston. To get the super off-peak fare, you seem to need to travel beyond Euston and beyond Manchester. Do Virgin only offer the super off-peak ticket if both operators either side offer it?
 

Haywain

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Hmm, that's interesting. If you try and book a Manchester to Euston ticket, the only super off-peak fares offered are "WMR/LNR only" (or "via Chesterfield" which I assume are via St Pancras). However, if you book Chinley to Thorpe-le-Soken, super off-peak fares are available, valid on VTWC between Manchester and Euston. To get the super off-peak fare, you seem to need to travel beyond Euston and beyond Manchester. Do Virgin only offer the super off-peak ticket if both operators either side offer it?
No, the ticket (flow) is priced by East Midlands Railway who offer Super Off Peak fares. That doesn't alter the fact that the ticket may be valid on routes where the trains are operated by a TOC which chooses not to offer Super Off Peak fares, such as Virgin Trains who have no say in the matter. The pricing TOC will (usually) set fares in accordance with their general fares structure regardless of where they may generally be used.
 

Tetchytyke

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Assuming a Super off-peak ticket Euston to Manchester is theoretically valid on VTWC, what VTWC trains would it actually be valid on?

The super off peak ticket is to/from Chinley, not Manchester, and to Thorpe-le-Stoken not London. EMT set the fare and the restrictions, even if a mapped route allows travel on other TOCs.

What fares Virgin choose, or choose not, to set on flows they control is irrelevant.

If you excess an Advance- which, by its nature, is TOC-restricted- to a walk up ticket, the TOC restrictions still apply. So if the Advance was VTWC and Connections, the walk-up ticket it is excessed to is only valid on VTWC and Connections. But any other restrictions are as per the walk-up ticket type.
 

Belperpete

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No, the ticket (flow) is priced by East Midlands Railway who offer Super Off Peak fares. That doesn't alter the fact that the ticket may be valid on routes where the trains are operated by a TOC which chooses not to offer Super Off Peak fares, such as Virgin Trains who have no say in the matter. The pricing TOC will (usually) set fares in accordance with their general fares structure regardless of where they may generally be used.
Thanks for that. It explains why I can't get Super Off-peak tickets where my journey is similarly extended both ends.

The super off peak ticket is to/from Chinley, not Manchester, and to Thorpe-le-Stoken not London. EMT set the fare and the restrictions, even if a mapped route allows travel on other TOCs.
So, for example, if I were to buy a Chinley to Thorpe-le-Stoken Off-Peak Return ticket, do I understand you correctly that what time trains I could travel back on from Euston would be set by EMR, not Virgin's restrictions on use of off-peak tickets? So there could be trains that Virgin don't allow passengers to travel on with Off-Peak tickets, but I would be allowed to travel on because I have a ticket where the restrictions are set by EMR? In which case, I think I would want to take some proof of validity with me (such as an itinerary) just in case the Virgin barrier staff refused it.
 

Haywain

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So, for example, if I were to buy a Chinley to Thorpe-le-Stoken Off-Peak Return ticket, do I understand you correctly that what time trains I could travel back on from Euston would be set by EMR, not Virgin's restrictions on use of off-peak tickets? So there could be trains that Virgin don't allow passengers to travel on with Off-Peak tickets, but I would be allowed to travel on because I have a ticket where the restrictions are set by EMR? In which case, I think I would want to take some proof of validity with me (such as an itinerary) just in case the Virgin barrier staff refused it.
They are likely to have used a standard set of Virgin Trains' restrictions rather than choosing something that VT will find unusual, so you are not likely to have any problems.
 

Tetchytyke

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So there could be trains that Virgin don't allow passengers to travel on with Off-Peak tickets, but I would be allowed to travel on because I have a ticket where the restrictions are set by EMR?

It's unlikely in this case, especially with a super offpeak, but remember that there are no such thing as peak or off-peak trains. Validity is determined by the ticket held. This can vary even within the same TOC; VTWC-set offpeak tickets to stations north of Preston have fewer restrictions than to stations south of Preston, for instance.
 

yorkie

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Would a Wayfarer between Long Eaton and Chinley be cheaper?
Two Wayfarers in each direction plus point to point fares from Long Eaton to Thorpe Le Soken? Unlikely but feel free to do the maths. It's too late for that now anyway; the tickets have already been bought!
 

Belperpete

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They are likely to have used a standard set of Virgin Trains' restrictions rather than choosing something that VT will find unusual, so you are not likely to have any problems.
I am not convinced about that: Virgin and EMR apply different restrictions on when off-peak and super off-peak tickets may be used. The reason I am interested in this is that I often used to travel between Derby and London. Any permitted route tickets are valid via Tamworth and Rugby. I had assumed that if travelling on VTWC between Rugby and Euston or v.v., that Virgin trains' restrictions on use would apply, but if I understand correctly it was actually EMT restrictions that would have applied. Virgin only allow super off-peak on trains departing Euston between 1100-1340 and after 2015, whereas EMT were much more liberal.
 

jawr256

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I am not convinced about that: Virgin and EMR apply different restrictions on when off-peak and super off-peak tickets may be used. The reason I am interested in this is that I often used to travel between Derby and London. Any permitted route tickets are valid via Tamworth and Rugby. I had assumed that if travelling on VTWC between Rugby and Euston or v.v., that Virgin trains' restrictions on use would apply, but if I understand correctly it was actually EMT restrictions that would have applied. Virgin only allow super off-peak on trains departing Euston between 1100-1340 and after 2015, whereas EMT were much more liberal.
The EMR-priced Super Off-Peak Return from Chinley to Thorpe-le-Soken carries retriction code CI [1]. This applies particular restrictions to when trains may arrive and depart St Pancras and Bedford, but for journeys to Euston says "please use restriction 2C"

2C is the restriction code applied to (e.g.) the VT-priced Off-Peak Return from Manchester to London [2]. Hence Haywain's hypothesis that EMR have used a standard set of Virgin's conditions - just not Virgin's Super Off-Peak conditions.

The same CI restrictions apply to the EMR-priced Route Any Permitted Super-Off Peak Return from Derby to London [3], though this flow also has WMT-priced Super Off-Peak tickets routed "LNR & XC Only" with different restrictions [4]

I note your point that Virgin applies different, stricter restrictions to the Super Off-Peak Returns it prices from (e.g.) Birmingham to London [5]. But, as Tetchytike notes, Virgin staff are should be well aware that there are different Off-Peak Restrictions for different tickets.

Sources:
[1] http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=CLY&dest=TLS&ldn=1&tkt=SSS
[2] http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&grpo=0438&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR
[3] http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=DBY&dest=EUS&grpd=1072&tkt=SSR
[4] http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=DBY&dest=EUS&rte=370&tkt=OPR
[5] http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BHM&dest=EUS&grpo=0418&grpd=1072&tkt=SSR

Edit:
A follow-on question for someone more knowledgeable than me - the CI restrictions at link [1] say for "Journeys to Euston please use restriction 2C" (my bold) and the unpublished restrictions only apply to the outward journey. To me this implies that there is no restriction on the return journey from Euston, notwithstanding the fact that 2C carries restrictions for such journeys. But a test booking appears to confirm that the 2C restrictions would apply to the return journey (eg. returning from Thorpe-le-Soken to Chinley via Euston) - so where exactly does that flow through in the logic for CI?
 
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Haywain

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A follow-on question for someone more knowledgeable than me - the CI restrictions at link [1] say for "Journeys to Euston please use restriction 2C" (my bold) and the unpublished restrictions only apply to the outward journey. To me this implies that there is no restriction on the return journey from Euston, notwithstanding the fact that 2C carries restrictions for such journeys. But a test booking appears to confirm that the 2C restrictions would apply to the return journey (eg. returning from Thorpe-le-Soken to Chinley via Euston) - so where exactly does that flow through in the logic for CI?
I think that the wording is because the restriction code is only used for journeys that are, essentially, southbound on the outward leg. For example, whereas we are discussing 2C, Virgin use code 9I for tickets such as the Off Peak Return (SVR) from London Terminals to Manchester Stations.
 
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