Help please! TfL nominee pass confiscated

Jamran

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Hi everyone.

just joined as I’m worried. I work for TfL and my nominee pass holder was travelling from Stratford to Chelmsford. He’s started working PT there couple weeks ago 3 days a week.

He’s worked in Chelmsford before (2019) for a few months also. So he usually takes TfL rail to shenfield and then a Greater Anglia train to Chelmsford. He uses a weekly p2p travelcard (shenfield to Chelmsford) for that section of the journey.

For some stupid reason as he was late and rushing, he mistakingly took the GA service direct from Stratford to Chelmsford yesterday instead of TfL service and was stopped by revenue.
The officer then took his wallet and saw his TfL nominee pass and the p2p ticket. He also made him get out the old tickets from 2019 and said that apparently he believes he’s been doing this for years etc and that he will be investigated. The nominee cannot speak English well and was so distressed they couldn’t explain themselves so called me. I spoke to the officer and initially he said that he found tickets from 2019 and he believes that it’s been going on for that long. I stated that’s not correct as well as the fact that he’s only started working in Chelmsford again recently. The officer also alleged staff had seen [mod edit - him] jumping the gates multiple times. I told him that’s wholly untrue as he’s quite old. He then withdrew that allegation.
Cut a long story short the officer not only took away the p2p ticket but also the TfL nominee pass as evidence.

[mod edit - He] has never been in trouble with them before.

Id like to know whether he was right in taking the TfL pass away from him? Seeing as it’s not GA property? If they’ve rightly fully taken it as evidence, when and how would I get it back?

Also what would the most likely outcome be?

Any help would be much appreciated.
 
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WesternLancer

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Hi everyone.

just joined as I’m worried. I work for TfL and my nominee pass holder was travelling from Stratford to Chelmsford. He’s started working PT there couple weeks ago 3 days a week.

He’s worked in Chelmsford before (2019) for a few months also. So he usually takes TfL rail to shenfield and then a Greater Anglia train to Chelmsford. He uses a weekly p2p travelcard (shenfield to Chelmsford) for that section of the journey.

For some stupid reason as he was late, he took the GA service direct from Stratford to Chelmsford yesterday and was stopped by revenue.
The officer then took his wallet and saw his TfL nominee pass and the p2p ticket. He also made him get out the old tickets from 2019 and said that apparently he believes he’s been doing this for years etc and that he will be investigated. The nominee cannot speak English well and was so distressed they couldn’t explain themselves so called me. I spoke to the officer and initially he said that he found tickets from 2019 and he believes that it’s been going on for that long. I stated that’s not correct as well as the fact that he’s only started working in Chelmsford again recently. The officer also alleged staff had seen [mod edit - him] jumping the gates multiple times. I told him that’s wholly untrue as he’s quite old. He then withdrew that allegation.
Cut a long story short the officer not only took away the p2p ticket but also the TfL nominee pass as evidence.

[mod edit - He] has never been in trouble with them before.

Id like to know whether he was right in taking the TfL pass away from him? Seeing as it’s not GA property? If they’ve rightly fully taken it as evidence, when and how would I get it back?

Also what would the most likely outcome be?

Any help would be much appreciated.
Hi - I guess other will be along soon with more knowledge of the regs ref TfL passes and use on National Rail services.

But given the seriousness by which these matters seem to be dealt with by employers in the industry I'd be seeking to have a confidential discussion with your union rep at work about this fairly quickly. Assuming you are a union member. If not I'd be joint the union ASAP.
 

Jamran

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Hi - I guess other will be along soon with more knowledge of the regs ref TfL passes and use on National Rail services.

But given the seriousness by which these matters seem to be dealt with by employers in the industry I'd be seeking to have a confidential discussion with your union rep at work about this fairly quickly. Assuming you are a union member. If not I'd be joint the union ASAP.
But there wasn’t misuse of the nominee pass though or am I missing something?

Also, would they be contacting TfL or simply returning the nominee pass?
 

WesternLancer

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But there wasn’t misuse of the nominee pass though or am I missing something?

Also, would they be contacting TfL or simply returning the nominee pass?
Apols, I can't help with that as I don't know enough about the rules of staff passes like this. Hopefully others will come along with more advice (maybe it might also help if you re-titled your post to be more specific so people with best knowledge can try to answer - eg 'Help Please - TfL nominee pass confiscated' or some such).

Good luck with getting this sorted. I'm sure others will post more helpful replies for you than I can soon.
 

skyhigh

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But there wasn’t misuse of the nominee pass though or am I missing something?

Also, would they be contacting TfL or simply returning the nominee pass?
I suspect that if the the nominee pass was used to get through the barriers at Stratford it could be viewed as misuse of the pass.
 

Jamran

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I suspect that if the the nominee pass was used to get through the barriers at Stratford it could be viewed as misuse of the pass.
The journey started at Mile End so they used the underground first

Apols, I can't help with that as I don't know enough about the rules of staff passes like this. Hopefully others will come along with more advice (maybe it might also help if you re-titled your post to be more specific so people with best knowledge can try to answer - eg 'Help Please - TfL nominee pass confiscated' or some such).

Good luck with getting this sorted. I'm sure others will post more helpful replies for you than I can soon.
Thanks. Re-titled now.
 

Haywain

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But there wasn’t misuse of the nominee pass though or am I missing something?
Using it on a train (company) when it is not valid is misuse.
Also, would they be contacting TfL or simply returning the nominee pass?
That is difficult for us to say, but I think you should be contacting your union and, probably, your staff travel office for advice.
 

Jamran

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Using it on a train (company) when it is not valid is misuse.

That is difficult for us to say, but I think you should be contacting your union and, probably, your staff travel office for advice.
Thanks. I’m going to wait for their letter and see what they say before contacting staff travel. I’m hoping they’ll accept his apologies and admission of guilt and send a penalty.
 

221129

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Assuming you are a union member. If not I'd be joint the union ASAP.
You need to be a member at the time of the offence for the union to be able to assist.

Thanks. I’m going to wait for their letter and see what they say before contacting staff travel. I’m hoping they’ll accept his apologies and admission of guilt and send a penalty.
This is a poor idea. You could well end up with action taken against you as well as your friend. I'd be looking at damage limitation immediately. Speak to the union (if you're in one) and then your staff travel office.
 

Jamran

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You need to be a member at the time of the offence for the union to be able to assist.


This is a poor idea. You could well end up with action taken against you as well as your friend. I'd be looking at damage limitation immediately. Speak to the union (if you're in one) and then your staff travel office.

I didn’t commit an offence though? I am worried contacting staff travel will make them aware of a situation they may not be made aware of? I’m hoping GA will simply contact my nominee and return the pass? As the pass itself was valid and not stolen or similar.
 

skyhigh

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I’m hoping GA will simply contact my nominee and return the pass? As the pass itself was valid and not stolen or similar.
I doubt they will directly return a confiscated pass. It's more likely it'll be returned to your staff travel office.

Have a look at what your contract says regarding staff travel - it probably specifies what your requirements are around nominee passes (I.e. you may be liable for disciplinary proceedings if a nominee pass is misused).

It might also be worth checking with your nominee that what they've told you is 100% the truth with no details missing. For example, if they were asked for a ticket and presented the pass (rather than it being found) then that's a clear case of misuse.

Regardless, the journey was started with the pass - and then they got on the train with that pass but without a valid ticket. It's going to be quite hard to argue that isn't misuse of the pass if they decide to take it further.

If it was me, I'd explain the situation to my union ASAP and see what advice they give.
 

T-Karmel

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I didn’t commit an offence though?
Not sure how it works at TfL, but when you've issued travel passes for a partner or dependents on the railway, you're responsible for assuring their correct usage of those. Have a quick read through this forum and you'll find people getting sacked for their partners misusing travel passes or PRIVs.

Nominee pass works like normal Oyster, so officer who kept the card will most possibly hotlist the card and request journey history (so they'll see how often it was used for entry/exit at GA stations, they might also follow it up with taking CCTV footage for last few instances) and in that case as the card will be hot listed, it will not be sent back to anyone - it will be kept by the officer.
 

Jamran

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Not sure how it works at TfL, but when you've issued travel passes for a partner or dependents on the railway, you're responsible for assuring their correct usage of those. Have a quick read through this forum and you'll find people getting sacked for their partners misusing travel passes or PRIVs.

Nominee pass works like normal Oyster, so officer who kept the card will most possibly hotlist the card and request journey history (so they'll see how often it was used for entry/exit at GA stations, they might also follow it up with taking CCTV footage for last few instances) and in that case as the card will be hot listed, it will not be sent back to anyone - it will be kept by the officer.
I’ve spoken to the nominee properly now and this is his version of events:

He got to Stratford and boarded the GA service. Ticket inspector came and realising he didn’t have a valid ticket for part of his journey was in the process of issuing him with a £35 penalty fare. In that time the revenue officer came onto the scene and the ticket inspector just left it with him.

He took his wallet and saw it was a nominee pass and also p2p from shenfield to Chelmsford. Nominee explained that he messed up and was prepared to pay the penalty. Officer then started going though the entirety of his wallet and found couple of old tickets from 2019 and started accusing him of persistent fare evasion. Nominee isn’t well versed in English and was petrified so wasn’t able to explain himself. He did explain to him what he usually does i.e. takes TfL rail to shenfield then GA to Chelmsford but the guy wasn’t having any of it and took his wallet, stating they’ll be in contact.

Personally think it’s a stretch to accuse of persistent fare evasion after finding couple of old tickets dating back from 2019.
With regards to the oyster, they won’t see much as he only touches in when he enters the underground at Mile End as after that there is no touching out.

Anyway I am hopeful that GA will be fair in their judgement and deal with it accordingly.
With regards to TfL I don’t think it’s the same policy as NR as the whole network is covered there isn’t scope of abuse as there is with NR. Here’s hoping.

Thank you all. Let’s await their letter
 

furlong

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How did the nominee enter the station at Stratford? If the nominee pass was used to pass through a barrier (or to arrive at the station on a TfL service), then your nominee would struggle to argue there was no misuse of the pass - it would be directly involved in the journey. Without the pass, the nominee would not have been able to reach the train.

As to your question about how you can get it back: Do you consider your nominee's actions have caused you professional embarrassment for which you might wish to apologise to the train company and your employer? Might it not pile on even more embarrassment trying to persuade your employer to issue a travel pass to someone who has admitted (initially by agreeing to pay a penalty fare) attempting to evade paying the correct fare for their journey? Would such an action cause your employer to question your own judgement potentially putting your own job at risk?
 
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Jamran

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How did the nominee enter the station at Stratford? If the nominee pass was used to pass through a barrier (or to arrive at the station on a TfL service), then your nominee would struggle to argue there was no misuse of the pass - it would be directly involved in the journey. Without the pass, the nominee would not have been able to reach the train.

As to your question about how you can get it back: Do you consider your nominee's actions have caused you professional embarrassment for which you might wish to apologise to the train company and your employer? Might it not pile on even more embarrassment trying to persuade your employer to issue a travel pass to someone who has admitted (initially by agreeing to pay a penalty fare) attempting to evade paying the correct fare for their journey? Would such an action cause your employer to question your own judgement potentially putting your own job at risk?

not sure if you’re aware of how Stratford station is but I’ll explain. Nominee touches in at Mile End. Takes the tube to Stratford. Gets off at Stratford and walks to another platform. There are no barriers or touching in. It’s all within the station itself. They then board GA or TfL train. So they didn’t enter the station but rather interchanged.

They made a mistake and got on the wrong train for which they’re extremely sorry and remorseful. This is why he was prepared to pay the penalty. Like I said I spoke to him today and he genuinely rushed onto the wrong train. I assumed he did it knowingly that’s why I stated that originally. But after speaking to him that’s not the case.
 
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30907

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Like I said I spoke to him today and he genuinely rushed onto the wrong train.
From that description he made the crossplatform interchange to P8.
It is rare for GA trains to use that platform, but if that was the case (which can be easily checked) then you are justified in claiming it was a mistake.
 

londonteacher

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For some stupid reason as he was late and rushing, he mistakingly took the GA service direct from Stratford to Chelmsford yesterday instead of TfL service and was stopped by revenue.
So ultimately he took a faster service because he is running late despite not having a valid ticket/pass for that service?

That was a decision he made so GA seem well within their right to have done as they have.
 

Tallguy

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I’ve spoken to the nominee properly now and this is his version of events:

He took his wallet and saw it was a nominee pass and also p2p from shenfield to Chelmsford. Nominee explained that he messed up and was prepared to pay the penalty. Officer then started going though the entirety of his wallet and found couple of old tickets from 2019 and started accusing him of persistent fare evasion. Nominee isn’t well versed in English and was petrified so wasn’t able to explain himself.
I hope something is lost in translation here as the nominee isn’t well versed in English but if the RPI or whoever ‘took’ the nominee’s wallet then in my limited opinion they would be heading for a whole load of trouble. No RPI or ticket inspector etc has the power to demand you hand over your wallet, turn out your pockets etc.
 

Jamran

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I hope something is lost in translation here as the nominee isn’t well versed in English but if the RPI or whoever ‘took’ the nominee’s wallet then in my limited opinion they would be heading for a whole load of trouble. No RPI or ticket inspector etc has the power to demand you hand over your wallet, turn out your pockets etc.
That’s essentially what happened. RPI demanded to see his ticket. He handed his wallet over to him and he went through it. That’s how he found the old tickets from 2019. When I challenged the RPI after he mentioned the old tickets and came up with the allegation that he’s been fare evading since 2019 I asked why is he going through his wallet. To which he replied the nominee handed over the tickets. But I’ve confirmed with the nominee that the RPI took the entire thing off him and went through it himself. To avoid confusion I explicitly asked the nominee if he told u to get the tickets out. He stated that the RPI took the whole wallet and went through it himself.
 

MikeWh

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I guess it could be a ticket wallet rather than a normal wallet with credit cards, cash, etc etc
 

Tallguy

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That’s essentially what happened. RPI demanded to see his ticket. He handed his wallet over to him and he went through it. That’s how he found the old tickets from 2019. When I challenged the RPI after he mentioned the old tickets and came up with the allegation that he’s been fare evading since 2019 I asked why is he going through his wallet. To which he replied the nominee handed over the tickets. But I’ve confirmed with the nominee that the RPI took the entire thing off him and went through it himself. To avoid confusion I explicitly asked the nominee if he told u to get the tickets out. He stated that the RPI took the whole wallet and went through it himself.
Then it appears the wallet was handed over voluntarily. No RPI etc can demand you hand over a wallet etc, just the tickets, relevant travel cards, pass etc. If they demand you whole wallet etc or ask you to turn out your pockets etc then simply refuse as they have no authority or powers to do so.

There is an episode of ‘The Tube’ where a TFL employee tells a fare dodgers that has been caught to turn out his pockets. I was horrified and shocked at this demand.
 

ukkid

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Is the nominee pass like an oyster such that the nominee/OP can get the last few weeks travel history?
If so.might be useful to download it to prepare to counteract. Also collect any evidence of his other ticket purchases and a chronology of his travel history
I'm not saying you need to necessarily divulge all of this to GA or TFL, but it will help you counter or explain any allegations made/questions asked.

BTW is a weekly from Shenfield to Chelmsford worth it for 3 days travel?
 

Haywain

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Is the nominee pass like an oyster such that the nominee/OP can get the last few weeks travel history?
If so.might be useful to download it to prepare to counteract. Also collect any evidence of his other ticket purchases and a chronology of his travel history
I'm not saying you need to necessarily divulge all of this to GA or TFL, but it will help you counter or explain any allegations made/questions asked.
If it only shows touches in and out at Mile End it is going to be no help at all. And as the holder travels to Chelmsford there are unlikely to be touch outs at Shenfield.
 

island

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Then it appears the wallet was handed over voluntarily. No RPI etc can demand you hand over a wallet etc, just the tickets, relevant travel cards, pass etc. If they demand you whole wallet etc or ask you to turn out your pockets etc then simply refuse as they have no authority or powers to do so.

There is an episode of ‘The Tube’ where a TFL employee tells a fare dodgers that has been caught to turn out his pockets. I was horrified and shocked at this demand.
RPIs are entirely within their rights to request/instruct/tell someone to do the above; the passenger is equally within his/her rights to refuse to do so. Such refusal may (or may not) result in the RPI declining to use his/her discretion in the passenger's favour such as by selling a ticket instead of issuing a penalty fare or issuing a PF instead of reporting for prosecution. Be careful what you wish for.
 

Tallguy

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RPIs are entirely within their rights to request/instruct/tell someone to do the above; the passenger is equally within his/her rights to refuse to do so. Such refusal may (or may not) result in the RPI declining to use his/her discretion in the passenger's favour such as by selling a ticket instead of issuing a penalty fare or issuing a PF instead of reporting for prosecution. Be careful what you wish for.
An RPI has no legal powers (and I am talking about legal powers as everything else is hearsay) whatsoever to request/instruct/tell someone to turn out their pockets anymore than I do. The RPI can ask but under no circumstances is the passenger obliged to comply with such a request And in my view any such request should lead to a complaint against the RPI concerned For gross misconduct by my of abuse of power. Any physical attempt to go through someone’s pockets etc would be assault. What next, take off your socks so I can count how many toes you have?

Obviously the passenger does have to supply information such as their true name and address if caught without a valid ticket, but turn out your pockets or hand over your wallet, absolutely not.
 

RJ

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An RPI has no legal powers (and I am talking about legal powers as everything else is hearsay) whatsoever to request/instruct/tell someone to turn out their pockets anymore than I do. The RPI can ask but under no circumstances is the passenger obliged to comply with such a request And in my view any such request should lead to a complaint against the RPI concerned For gross misconduct by my of abuse of power. Any physical attempt to go through someone’s pockets etc would be assault. What next, take off your socks so I can count how many toes you have?

Obviously the passenger does have to supply information such as their true name and address if caught without a valid ticket, but turn out your pockets or hand over your wallet, absolutely not.

I’d have thought any complaints about RPI conduct usually end up in the bin sooner or later. There are parts of the railways where anything goes, so long as it doesn’t get caught on camera and put on social media. That particular part of the network, I seriously wouldn’t waste any time complaining about RPI conduct.

I’m not certain someone with the kind of judgement to travel on and actually show a nominee pass when they know it’s not valid is in a strong position to complain. More focus should be on convincing the TOC not to take further action.
 
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Tallguy

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I’d have thought any complaints about RPI conduct usually end up in the bin sooner or later. There are parts of the railways where anything goes, so long as it doesn’t get caught on camera and put on social media. That particular part of the network, I seriously wouldn’t waste any time complaining about RPI conduct.

I’m not certain someone with the kind of judgement to travel on and actually show a nominee pass when they know it’s not valid is in a strong position to complain. More focus should be on convincing the TOC not to take further action.
Which part of the railways are you referring to please?

it’s clear in this case that the ’wallet’ was handed over voluntarily. My comment was a general one about RPI legal powers, or rather the powers that an RPI doesn’t have.
 

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