Help re London to Matlock (via Derby) journey?

[Mcr Warrior]

Suggestions please for where best to split tickets for the above journey sometime next week. Will be travelling one-way from St. Pancras to Matlock (via Derby) after 3 p.m. during the afternoon (midweek). They will need to be walk-up tickets. Don't mind splitting the journey at Bedford as I have a "Gold" All Zones Travelcard (although noted that this may result in a slightly longer journey time). Any ideas for reducing the cost compared with £78.50 for a through Anytime Single ticket?

 

[John @ home]

Don't mind splitting the journey at Bedford as I have a "Gold" All Zones Travelcard

Is your "Gold" All Zones Travelcard from Bedford or just for Zones 1-6?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is your "Gold" All Zones Travelcard from Bedford or just for Zones 1-6?

No, the Gold Card is from South of London. What I was thinking of getting was a (Gold Card Discounted) single from Boundary Zone 6 to Bedford (no idea how to find out the fare for that), then another single or singles from Bedford to Derby/Matlock.

 

[Wyvern]

Trains for Derby tend to be first stop Leicester. Last off peak train is 1455. (Check this as I'm in a bit of a hurry)

To split at Bedford you'd have to catch a Nottingham train and change to the Derby one at Leicester. Last off peak for this I think is 1430 from STP.

Change at Derby for the Matlock train. This actually starts at Nottingham but going there is something of a long way round.

 

[clagmonster]

Boundary zone 6-Bedford cheap day single £11.90 (can't get a gold card discount because of the £13 minimum fare).
Bedford-Market Harborough cheap day single £14.40
Market Harborough-Matlock saver single £17.60
Total £43.90
Is my best effort, though there might be better out there. I have tried splitting additionally at Leicester and Derby but it makes no improvement. As your travelcard is a season, you would be valid on trains not stopping at Bedford or Market Harborough, because of clause 19 part c of the conditions of carriage:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[paul1609]

The £13 minimum doesnt apply to Gold Cards only Network cards.

 

[philjo]

I thought that the £13 minimum fare on weekdays did not apply to Gold Cards, only to Network Cards?
I have never been charged a minimum fare in conjunction with my gold card - the fare payable last time was £7.50 after discount on a weekday.
Or did this change recently?

 

[MCR247]

Boundary zone 6-Bedford cheap day single £11.90 (can't get a gold card discount because of the £13 minimum fare).
Bedford-Market Harborough cheap day single £14.40
Market Harborough-Matlock saver single £17.60
Total £43.90
Is my best effort, though there might be better out there. I have tried splitting additionally at Leicester and Derby but it makes no improvement. As your travelcard is a season, you would be valid on trains not stopping at Bedford or Market Harborough, because of clause 19 part c of the conditions of carriage:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Surely it'd have to stop at Mkt Harborough, as this bit isn't a season?

 

[clagmonster]

I appologise, I am not overly familiar with gold card restrictions, I thought the £13 minimum fare applied to them as well. One day I'll get it right. £7.85 for the Bounday zone 6-Bedford leg then.
There are multiple tickets for the journey, which is from St Pancras to Matlock. There are tickets to cover the entire journey, and part c is satisfied as exactly one ticket is a season, hence there is no requirement for the train to stop at the stations where the tickets are split. Indeed, if there was more than one season, then this would contravene this clause. I believe Yorkie has a letter from ATOC which clarified this point.

 

[John @ home]

Surely it'd have to stop at Mkt Harborough, as this bit isn't a season?

No.

Going through the relevant part of the NRCoC:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey

In this case the entire journey is London (or the station where you first board a train using your Gold Travelcard) to Matlock.

and one of the following applies:
[skip (a) and (b), which don't apply]
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket
[skip more stuff]
and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

In your case your Gold Travelcard is a Season Ticket and the Bedford - Market Harborough and Market Harborough - Matlock tickets are not.

Hence you are allowed to use these 3 tickets for one journey, with no restrictions on where the trains stop.

 

[philjo]

I found a cheaper fare, but it will be a lot slower!

Hatfield Herts to Matlock is £35 anytime single route not london.
single Hadley Wood to Hatfield £2.85 including goldcard discount. (£4.30 before 10am)
total fare £37.85

you would need to use FCC to Stevenage on a semi-fast service that stops at Hatfield then change at Stevenage & again at Grantham & Nottingham.

Incidentally, I see that from Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth there are now anytime singles to Matlock routed "Ely" which are £2 cheaper than the "not london fares" (i.e. which are also for use via Huntingdon)
These are priced by EMT.
The "not london" single from Cambridge to Matlock is priced by CC and costs £10 more, so if going from Cambridge via ely it is cheaper to book back at Hitchin (unless you actually want the option to go via Hitchin !)
These fares are also lower than those just to Nottingham - which are priced by East Coast (for SVG/HIT/LET - Cambridge is still priced by CC) (though it is cheaper still just to Derby)

 

[John @ home]

you would need to use FCC to Stevenage on a semi-fast service that stops at Hatfield then change at Stevenage & again at Grantham & Nottingham.

No, you wouldn't. You could use a non-stop London - Grantham train under NRCoC Condition 19(c). See posts above.

 

[yorkie]

I agree, as a Season is held there is no need to call at intermediate stations. I recommend buying the ticket from Boundary Zone 6 rather than Hadley Wood, the fare is the same, but I always recommend BZ6 tickets when combining with a Travelcard. There's less chance of someone who doesn't understand the rules claiming you have to call at a station that does not exist. As a season is held it is no different in terms of validity.

 

[button_boxer]

Interesting one with 19(c). So suppose I held a monthly Sheffield Travelmaster (all buses, trains and trams in Sheffield, so valid for SHF to meadowhall). Clearly I could then go non-stop Sheffield-Doncaster (on XC) with a Meadowhall-Doncaster ticket. But does this mean I could then freely split tickets from Doncaster to London on East Coast without regard for stopping points, on the basis that the first few miles of the Sheffield-Doncaster XC leg was covered by a leisure travel pass?

This would appear to be allowed by the letter of the rules (if not the spirit), but I can see arguments with EC guards and/or staff at Kings Cross...

 

[John @ home]

does this mean I could then freely split tickets from Doncaster to London on East Coast without regard for stopping points

No. Condition 19(c) states

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

A Sheffield Travelmaster is available in weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual form only, so it's a season ticket, not a leisure travel pass. It's issued on behalf of South Yorkshire PTE, so 19(c) does not apply.

 

[button_boxer]

No. Condition 19(c) statesA Sheffield Travelmaster is available in weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual form only, so it's a season ticket, not a leisure travel pass. It's issued on behalf of South Yorkshire PTE, so 19(c) does not apply.

Fair enough, I was trying to be too clever with my example. But in principle, if I have a season ticket that covers A-B, I could:

- take a train from A to B
- go to the ticket office at B and buy B-C and C-D tickets
- catch a non-stop B-D train

Whereas if I drove or caught the bus instead of the train to station B I wouldn't then be allowed to use the non-stop B-D on split tickets.

 

[John @ home]

in principle, if I have a season ticket that covers A-B, I could:

- take a train from A to B
- go to the ticket office at B and buy B-C and C-D tickets
- catch a non-stop B-D train

Almost yes. My only hesitation is about the order in which you propose to do things.

The principle of Condition 19 is that you are undertaking one journey, in your example from A to D. If B is an extremity of your season ticket on route A-B-C-D, and you don't buy the B-C and C-D tickets until arrival at B, I can see that it might be argued that the journey you proposed to make is B-D not A-D. This would depend on a number of factors, but to avoid the argument I would choose to buy the B-C and C-D tickets not later than at A.

Then, if the A-B season is not issued on behalf of a PTE or a local authority (Transport for London is neither) you hold a valid collection of tickets for a B-D train which does not stop at C.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Went with a combination of Boundary Zone 6 -> Bedford (£7-85 single), Bedford -> Market Harborough (£14-40 single) and Market Harborough -> Matlock (£17-60 single) tickets. Much cheaper combination than a walk-up through single ticket! Thanks for everyone's help!