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Help! Sat in First Class - or was it?

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Goatboy

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Whilst there is no denying that the OP has committed an offence and is in the wrong to me it seems the real 'outrage' here is that Greater Anglia actually think what is visible in that photograph is what they should be selling as 'First Class' accommodation.

Absolutely shocking. It's worse than most operators standard class accommodation! They just look like normal seats?
 
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317666

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The 08:48 is the first off-peak train from Cambridge to Liverpool Street, booked as 8 coaches and it's often very full by the time it reaches the London end of the line. First class is very rarely used by leisure travellers on this line, and the fact that this type of train doesn't have any branding on the outside at all to show that it's first class is a bit stupid. It really doesn't help at all that, when they are used on Hertford East services, first class is generally declassified, but when used on Cambridge services, it isn't. How would a passenger travelling from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street like the OP be able to know whether it was or not?

Having lived on the line for 17 years, I remember that these trains used to have doors segregating first class from standard with fairly large stickers on them indicating that it was first class. However, the doors were removed at some point in the last five or so years, which doesn't help with the situation at all.

I think that the threat of prosecution or even a £20 penalty fare is quite harsh for what was a simple mistake, but unfortunately that's Greater Anglia's decision and I can only wish the OP good luck with the situation.
 

jon0844

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The lack of doors would seem to make it even more ridiculous.

I accept that on many commuter routes, first class is simply to increase the chance of getting a seat - but FC tickets are expensive and so surely anyone in FC wouldn't just want a seat but also some chance of privacy and space to perhaps do some work (I bet GA and other TOCs all promote this as another benefit, even when some of their stock isn't up to the job).

FCC hasn't got rid of the doors on its 317s so you can at least block out the noise from the vestibules and the sliding doors that are hardly airtight!
 

Baazzaa

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Just to make you aware in case you're not already, the first train of the day on a Saturday is timetabled to have first class as it's actually come all the way from Cambridge. It is at 05:19 from Theobalds though so I imagine it's not a train you frequently find yourself on!

Fortunately I'm not up so early!

Ah so you're an Enfield resident too. Indeed, the FCC trains from Gordon Hill don't ever have first class as far as I'm aware, and their standard class is often in better shape than GA's first class, so I can understand the confusion. No doubt you'd have realised soon enough that you were in first class once you noticed the antimacassars (the ‘bibs’ to which you refer); it is unfortunate that you were spotted by Greater Anglia's member of staff so soon after boarding.

Yes, I am sure I would have realised soon enough. I can see in the photo how prominenet the antimacassars are and I can kick myself even more now. However, as I have said, my eye was immediately drawn to the mud and, upon sitting, I went straight into reading a document that I was carrying.


By the way, I don't intend to be particularly anti-Greater-Anglia in this thread. I'm just particularly incensed by this incident because I have actually stood on those trains just outside the first class section in a packed commuter rush-hour and thought to myself that I bet something like this would happen one day. Sure, to a ‘trained’ eye it's easy to spot that it's first class (my goodness, arm rests!) but I've travelled with enough people who aren't so clued-up about train travel to realise that mistakes like this can easily be made.

Thank you for your sympathy! It's nice to know that you understand how something like this can easily happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But the photograph of the muddy seats show they have antimacassars with 'First Class' prominently across them!

Yes, I agree 100%... please see my previous post above
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Assuming the seats were mostly empty, so you could see the antimacassars, I guess you should have spotted it when sitting down. But, if there are no closing doors and only very small stickers at the end of the 'compartment' then it's pretty bad on the part of GA (and National Express before it, which refreshed the trains to make them look as they do today).

Sadly, the offence was still committed but that doesn't mean you can't make a point of asking GA why it doesn't make it clearer (I wouldn't argue about the state of first class itself as that damage is done by passengers, not the TOC).

I'd settle up as required and then write to GA and see if they might, given the full explanation of what happened, might be willing to give some rail vouchers to refund you, or at least state what plans it might have to stop others making the same mistake.

I've been in first class on a FCC train where there were no stickers (presumably they'd just replaced the windows or the anti-etch film) and the ONLY signs of it being first class was by seeing the antimacassars (seat covers) which are obviously hidden if people are sat down, and you could miss the one on your own seat. It may well have been temporary, but I doubt any RPIs would have seen it that way.

In the case of GA, it seems like the lack of obvious markings isn't a temporary thing.. but unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it. As a route operated by driver only, penalty fares are in place - but that doesn't prevent a TOC opting to prosecute. It should be clearly written by the doors (to be fair to FCC, they do make it very clear) and opting to pay the extra is not an option purely because there's nobody there to take your money, except the occasional random ticket check.

[With regards to the photos; nobody can force you to delete the photos. Even the police must obtain a court order and the RPI could quite happily have taken action against you afterwards (which probably wouldn't go anywhere), but not stopp you from leaving before doing so. That might be worthy of a separate complaint].

Thank you for your suggestion. There's no denying that I offended and will have to take the punishment, but will certainly contact GA as you suggested.

I've also learnt something about the laws regarding photography!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doesn't matter what the seats were like, you can see clearly that they were first class seats. Did it never cross your mind that the mud on there is from similar people who sit in there without a first class ticket and put there feet on the seats just like they do in standard.

Clip,

Please see above for my explanation of how I missed the antimacassars. If that makes me an idiot, then, okay, I'm an idiot.

On the basis of what happened, and the fact that I didn'd know it was first class, no, it didn't cross my mind because I thought I was in standard class.

Also, are you suggesting that I am one of 'similar people' who sit in first class without a ticket and put their feet on seats? Please be advised that I am the wrong side of 55 and was brought up well by my parents, even though I don't travel first class.

And, do you suggest that first class ticket holders do not put their feet on seats?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On suburban commuter lines, the benefit of travelling first class isn't nicer seats or refreshments, it's that you're more likely to get a seat on a crowded train with a first class ticket,

That's interesting. I find it strange that you are only paying for a better chance of being seated. That means that I could have paid an extra £2.20 (50% increase) and still had to stand. Without re-checking, I think I noticed that the first class supplement (for my journey) is the same price at all times, I wonder why that is, given that there is less chance of obtaining a seat during peak hours.

They don't say that on the tin!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...It really doesn't help at all that, when they are used on Hertford East services, first class is generally declassified, but when used on Cambridge services, it isn't. How would a passenger travelling from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street like the OP be able to know whether it was or not?

That is very good point, albeit, I wouldn't have even considered that, given that I don't use overground trains that frequently and, as I say, FCC trains to/from Gordon Hill have never presented me with any issues.

I think that the threat of prosecution or even a £20 penalty fare is quite harsh for what was a simple mistake, but unfortunately that's Greater Anglia's decision and I can only wish the OP good luck with the situation.

Thank you, I appreciate your good wishes!
 

GodAtum

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On suburban commuter lines, the benefit of travelling first class isn't nicer seats or refreshments, it's that you're more likely to get a seat on a crowded train with a first class ticket,

Thats the reason I but a 1st class ticket from east Croydon - Victoria
 

Clip

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Baazzaa I was insinuating anything about you being sat in first class without a first class ticket nor you putting your feet upon any seats....
 

reb0118

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Baazzaa I was insinuating anything about you being sat in first class without a first class ticket nor you putting your feet upon any seats....

Freudian slip perhaps?

Perhaps, but the above sentence does not scan correctly. I think a "not" is missing to be fair.

Re. the OP's situation, as a guard even I think this is harsh. We have a somewhat similar situation here in Scotland where e.g. some lines have express & local services running on them. Express trains are advertised as having 1st Class, locals do not ~ but they both can be operated by the same type of train (class 170) that has both 1st & standard accommodation (1st would be declassified in that circumstance). To add to the confusion some locals run express and some expresses call at local stations.

Confused ~ you should be. However the main difference is in the way you will be treated if found in 1st, on a service advertised with 1st, but holding a standard ticket. You will be given the option to pay the difference in fare & remain or politely asked to move to standard. If your journey is very short you may, exceptionally, be allowed to remain without upgrading but will receive advice as to when is first first and when it is not (if you follow my meaning).

Whilst I agree that you are technically guilty I would hope that GA would at least meet you halfway by possibly sending you some vouchers to mitigate against any penalty . However who knows at this stage what action they will take. I assume that you are awaiting correspondence from GA?

[blatant plug] If you do get vouchers may I humbly suggest that you put them towards a leisure trip to see a different side of the railway away from the intense London commuter runs. How about the Caledonian Sleeper ~ you will be even be allowed to use the 1st Class Lounge (if space is available) on board with a standard sleeping berth ticket. Once is Scotland you can travel anywhere for £19 with a club 55 ticket (you did let slip you were over 55?) some time restrictions apply (you will have to be quick though as the offer finishes soon ~ but just like James Bond, will return again.[/blatant plug]

Good luck in you endeavours
 

455driver

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Why would GA give the OP any vouchers?
She was in the wrong and was caught fair and square!
Now the merits of "1st class" not even being separated by a door and not looking much different from standard is not really relevant as there were markings donating it as 1st which is all that is required.
The fact that people were crowded into one part of the train with the other bit (1st) being empty should have given a clue but we are all guilty of making snap decisions/ assumptions and getting it wrong.

I hope the OP is let off with a small fine and a bit of advice on the subject and learns a valuable lesson but DOO services do have a huge problem with standard class passengers using 1st class and the companies appear to be taking a zero tolerance policy to it, just telling somebody to move on the odd occasion they are caught wont stop them next time but a prosecution or 2 will.
 

jon0844

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Why would GA give the OP any vouchers?
She was in the wrong and was caught fair and square!

What's the harm in trying, on the basis that the OP can claim it wasn't made clear to them and there was no intent. The cost of a stamp and 20 minutes of your time?

They can say 'tough s**t' if they want, sure, but I do think that it is a pretty poor setup with no doors, minimal stickers and the chance that the antimacassars are blocked by people sitting down.

Of course, if it was an empty compartment then maybe that's a different story.

DOO services do have a huge problem with standard class passengers using 1st class and the companies appear to be taking a zero tolerance policy to it, just telling somebody to move on the odd occasion they are caught wont stop them next time but a prosecution or 2 will.

I totally agree with that, but TOCs should at least attempt to make it as obvious as possible. FCC have so many stickers (on a 365, it's as if the whole train is held together not by screws and bolts but stickers!) that it's a lot more open and shut than on a train where you have two small stickers next to an open gangway.

It's hardly going to cost a lot to put clearer signs by the doorway and on the walls/windows. I'd even go as far as saying you might wish to give someone who just boarded a minute or two to notice if they look like they didn't realise. Some people blatantly get on and say "hey 'Steve', let's just sit in first class" out loud and know exactly what they're doing. That's surprisingly common, as people seem to want to broadcast to the whole carriage that they're 'above the law'. By all means go straight to them and wipe the smug grins of their faces!!
 
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Hellfire

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You do sometimes have to wonder about the need for any first class accommodation on short run commuter services, particularly if it causes the sort of confusion one or two people have suggested.

Or does the extra revenue generated by first class tickets on these sorts of services make an appreciable difference to a TOCs revenue?
 

island

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First class on commuter routes is primarily about having a better chance of getting a seat.
 

Yew

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Dont forget that this 'First class' looks remarkably similar to standard class on GA's MK3's making it even easier to get confused (those MK3's really need a refurb :( )
 

Hellfire

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First class on commuter routes is primarily about having a better chance of getting a seat.

Yes, I understand that but it would make more sense IMHO to do away with it altogether on these sort of jourmeys.

As we have seen in this case there is often little difference between first and standard in terms of levels of accommodation in many of the train types which are used on these routes.

It's also ridiculous when you have a situation where standard class passengers are crammed in while there are empty seats in first.

Given that these are relatively short journeys and most people have no choice whether to use the train or not I doubt the TOC will lose out.
 

sheff1

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Chiltern, who serve a prosperous commuter area, did away with First Class years ago. I think there were a few grumbles to start with, but it seems to be accepted now.
 

Be3G

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I suspect very very few people purchase first class tickets on the line in question for journeys on stopping trains – i.e. the ones I'd catch returning to Enfield Lock/Brimsdown, which are normally the domain of the type Baazzaa travelled on. Travelling in the evening rush hour on a packed train leaving London's financial centre you'd expect to see a higher proportion of smartly dressed people in first class than in second (though I am not saying that someone who isn't smartly dressed doesn't belong in first). Generally that's not the case though – everyone looks the same in first as in second. I get the impression that the poor quality of first class on those trains means there's generally an unwritten agreement between passengers that the whole train is second class; so the ‘suits’ don't bother to purchase first class tickets and anyone goes in there irrespective of tickets held.

Of course, that could be why GA have been rather strict in this situation: perhaps they're trying hard to inject a sense of value in to their first class offerings, so that people start buying first class seasons. And it possibly doesn't help that the train did originate from Cambridge, whence there're probably some first class travellers as they'd be used to nicer trains. On one of the new class 379s that strictness is probably justifiable. On a train such as the one Baazzaa was on though, it's bonkers.
 

ian1944

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Going right back to the start, the OP touched in by Oyster at the origin station. Is there any way to pay for first class by Oyster, or would a paper ticket have to be obtained?
 

jon0844

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A paper ticket would need to be purchased. Perhaps TOCs should consider selling first class supplements given the large sections of their service now covered by Oyster PAYG.

Even with FCC doing a slightly better job of marking first class on a 317, they are still nearly full in the peaks and when RPIs do a sting (entering from both sides to stop people leaving) they catch loads of people. I guess it's the thinking of safety in numbers, but all of them will get done. [let's ignore the services where FC is declassified for this, but in any case most RPIs are aware of this now].

However, some RPIs (the more timid ones that I'm sure we've all seen) will just tell people to move out. I am not sure this is a good idea, even if makes for an easy life for that RPI.. but not the others who get told they were allowed to simply move the next time (and so have every incentive to go back into first class until caught again).
 

ian1944

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First being declassified on some services means that the same carriages are used but the seats are generally available, I presume. Are passengers supposed to be aware of this, or are there prominent notices train by train?
 

jon0844

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On FCC you can only tell by checking the timetable (no 1 means that if there's FC then it's NOT FC!). I know from reading on here that GA (well, NatEx before) has had some issues with this where a 'weekend first' upgrade exists, but that was only on a certain route I believe.

On one occasion I saw stuck on notices from FCC saying that first was declassified, but I have no idea how anyone thought that would work (they were easily removed and who would be given the job of remembering to put them up/take them down etc). [Edit: On 377/5s, the country end first class compartments are permanently declassified I believe and as such there are permanent stickers to say this].

I suppose an additional note could be added to other permanent stickers to state that first class might be declassified at certain times (and advising to check the timetable) but I doubt those who do the checking would want everyone to know! I know I wouldn't. ;)
 

34D

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Thank you Be3G. Yes, it appears a through train from Cambridge. And, yes, there were stickers, albeit I unfortunately didn't see them as I entered the carriage.

Is the train you travelled in included in the printed (or online PDF) timetables? If so, precisely how is the 'declassification' worded?

Interestingly, I like the wording in the bylaw "no person shall remain in any seat". I'm not even sure I remained in the seat for more than 30 seconds before I was approached. Not even long enough to warm the seat!!!

Did you stand up as soon as the agent appeared?

My usual overground line into London when I need one is First Capital Connect from Gordon Hill. To be honest I don't ever recall noticing first class carriages, so it isn't something I think about

I used to live on the Gordon Hill line. There used to be a few late evening services operated by the class 317s (on some or all, first class _was_ still first class).

Dont forget that this 'First class' looks remarkably similar to standard class on GA's MK3's making it even easier to get confused (those MK3's really need a refurb :( )

Not similar. 100% identical. The same early 1980s IC70 seats were fitted to second class 'intercity' coaches and first class 317 coaches.
 

Baazzaa

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Whilst I agree that you are technically guilty I would hope that GA would at least meet you halfway by possibly sending you some vouchers to mitigate against any penalty . However who knows at this stage what action they will take. I assume that you are awaiting correspondence from GA?

Yes, still waiting.

BTW, does anyone oknow how long one is given to respond once receiving the correspondence?

I will be overseas next week and don't want to get caught up in timing issues reagrding responding.



[blatant plug] If you do get vouchers may I humbly suggest that you put them towards a leisure trip to see a different side of the railway away from the intense London commuter runs. How about the Caledonian Sleeper ~ you will be even be allowed to use the 1st Class Lounge (if space is available) on board with a standard sleeping berth ticket. Once is Scotland you can travel anywhere for £19 with a club 55 ticket (you did let slip you were over 55?) some time restrictions apply (you will have to be quick though as the offer finishes soon ~ but just like James Bond, will return again.[/blatant plug]

Good luck in you endeavours

Ha, shouldn't have divulged my age :) Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and thanks also for your good wishes!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A paper ticket would need to be purchased. Perhaps TOCs should consider selling first class supplements given the large sections of their service now covered by Oyster PAYG.

Problem there, as I see it, is how a casual train user such as myself could know which train would have a first class carriage/section in advance of buying a ticket. Research beforehand, I suspect, is not something a casual user considers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is the train you travelled in included in the printed (or online PDF) timetables? If so, precisely how is the 'declassification' worded?

It transpires that there was no declassification on this train as it was a through train from Cambridge and not a local service, as I originally thought

Did you stand up as soon as the agent appeared??

Yes, I stood up immediately
 

Clip

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Ahh was that a bit I missed then? You only stood up when you saw the RPI approaching you? Makes sense now.
 

Clip

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Care to explain what makes sense?

That,even though you sat down in an empty carriage, even though the rest train was full, in front of seats that had massive antimacassars on them detailing first class, you actually got up when the RPIs approached you. This shows me(and im dead cynical this week) that you knew you were in the wrong and thought you would try it on and only 'realised' your mistake when you saw the RPIs approach you.

I may be the only one on here(and all the talk about any stickers is just rubbish) but I simply do not believe this was an innocent mistake by yourself. If it was then you certainly would not have got up when you saw the RPIs approaching. I mean why would anyone do such a thing if they didnt know they had done anything wrong?
 

Baazzaa

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That,even though you sat down in an empty carriage, even though the rest train was full, in front of seats that had massive antimacassars on them detailing first class, you actually got up when the RPIs approached you. This shows me(and im dead cynical this week) that you knew you were in the wrong and thought you would try it on and only 'realised' your mistake when you saw the RPIs approach you.

I may be the only one on here(and all the talk about any stickers is just rubbish) but I simply do not believe this was an innocent mistake by yourself. If it was then you certainly would not have got up when you saw the RPIs approaching. I mean why would anyone do such a thing if they didnt know they had done anything wrong?

Thank you for your reply and, of course, your confirmation that you were, in fact, making insinuations in your earlier post. I thought as much.

Frankly, I don't care what you think. I didn't come here to go on trial. All I have done is to tell my story.

However, I suggest that it may be useful when considering making judgement, that you actually read and understand what posters say. Sure, if there is something that you do not understand (or that does not make sense), then why not ask a reasonable non-cynical question instead of trying to be clever playing Sherlock?

As an example, I never said that I sat in an empty carriage. I never said that the rest of the train was full. I never said that the "RPIs approached" me. Albeit i apologies for not giving a wholly detailed answer to the "appear/approach" question so as not to leave any doubt

Therefore, for your benefit (and goodness knows why I am bothering)... The RPI (singular) appeared/approached me within a couple of steps of her seat (she was sitting in the seat backing on to the muddy seat on the right in my photo and I was sitting in the seat facing the muddy seat on the right) to mine and within a split second. The time it took for me to look up and notice that I was in first class. The time it took for me to realise that the teenage lad was trying to make a quick exit from the first class section of the carriage. The time it took for her to ask me for my ticket and, here is the punchline, the time it took me to 'immediately' stand up to retrieve my credit card wallet containing my oyster card from my front left trouser pocket from under my coat and, 'immediately' apologising for my error, 'immediately' offering to move to a standard class area.

I trust the above satisfies the cynic in you, although I doubt it.
 

Clip

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Thank you for your reply and, of course, your confirmation that you were, in fact, making insinuations in your earlier post. I thought as much.

Frankly, I don't care what you think. I didn't come here to go on trial. All I have done is to tell my story.

And I have read your story and come to my own conclusions, you will find that happens when you post on an open forum,inviting people to read your story and draw from it their own conclusions.



However, I suggest that it may be useful when considering making judgement, that you actually read and understand what posters say. Sure, if there is something that you do not understand (or that does not make sense), then why not ask a reasonable non-cynical question instead of trying to be clever playing Sherlock?
I did read and understand what you said, thats how I formed my conclusion.

As an example, I never said that I sat in an empty carriage. I never said that the rest of the train was full. I never said that the "RPIs approached" me. Albeit i apologies for not giving a wholly detailed answer to the "appear/approach" question so as not to leave any doubt

Upon boarding the train, at the first doors in the second carriage i noticed that it was fairly full in the left side (end section of the carriage) I then looked right towards the middle section and noticed spare seats, albeit my eye took me towards two seats facing me which had quite a bit of mud on them. I sat down facing these, on the aisle seat, and started to read a document that I had in hand, while a teenage lad boarded and sat across the aisle.
Within 30 seconds of leaving the station, I noticed a woman stand from the seat that backed on to the muddy seat opposite me and approached me - while the young passenger made for a quick exit (to be stopped by the woman's colleage who was also sat where she was).
It was at this point when I looked up that I realised I was sitting in a First Class area of the carriage and assumed that she was a ticket inspector (even now I do not know what she was as she never told me).
!

Im struggling how you noticed her get up,whilst reading a document and then look up to realise you were in first. Unless you sat down with your eyes looking down the you wouldve noticed right away you were in first class the same as when you looked up. Doesnt make any sense whatsoever apart from someone sitting down trying not to get noticed in first. I see it all the time.

Therefore, for your benefit (and goodness knows why I am bothering)... The RPI (singular) appeared/approached me within a couple of steps of her seat (she was sitting in the seat backing on to the muddy seat on the right in my photo and I was sitting in the seat facing the muddy seat on the right) to mine and within a split second. The time it took for me to look up and notice that I was in first class. The time it took for me to realise that the teenage lad was trying to make a quick exit from the first class section of the carriage. The time it took for her to ask me for my ticket and, here is the punchline, the time it took me to 'immediately' stand up to retrieve my credit card wallet containing my oyster card from my front left trouser pocket from under my coat and, 'immediately' apologising for my error, 'immediately' offering to move to a standard class area.

I trust the above satisfies the cynic in you, although I doubt it.

No, nothing of it satisfies me at all about it. That may not be what you wanted to hear and I may be the only one who says it but your story doesnt hold up for a normal passenger as most do not sit down and not notice their surroundings, especially when they notice the muddy seats and a woman sat across from them, yet do not notice rather large antimacassers on not only the muddy seats in front of them but also the ones behind their head.

Sorry, but thats how I see it. And actually its a kind of story Ive heard once to many times to take seriously.
 

34D

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It transpires that there was no declassification on this train as it was a through train from Cambridge and not a local service, as I originally thought

No. You miss my point. Is the train on which you travelled listed in the printed Hertford East timetable booklet (perhaps as starting at Broxbourne)? If so, what else does that booklet say.
 
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island

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Most people faced with a rail ticket anomaly that has been detected have never heard of and never find this forum. They may pay the "fine" demanded (if there is such a sum) and rant about it to their mates or do the "I'm never travelling on [TOC] again" and hold out for a week or two. They may also end up in court and getting convicted when the prosecutor employs a line of evidence and questioning that leads the passenger to provide incriminating details, assuming they didn't do so on the MG11 statement.

A few lucky people find us here. We offer support and help to people accused of a ticket anomaly and try to get them the best outcome possible for the facts of their situation. This could be getting action stopped, getting them compensation, recommending they pay an out of court settlement, or any of a number of other things. But to establish what those facts are takes some time. We ask questions and challenge posters on things they have said not to be obnoxious or judgmental, nor to try to trap people, but to make sure they get they get the best possible advice. Sometimes that may come across as accusatory, but remember this is a dry run. What is said here is very unlikely to be used against you in a court of law. So when you fill out that form or attend court for real, you'll be briefed of the pitfalls.

We're here to help, but to help with what happened, we need to know what happened.
 
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