Help! St Albans to London day travel card

Status
Not open for further replies.

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
Hello everyone, I travelled to London today from St Albans with a London zone 1-6 travel card. My outbound trip was done by First Capital Connect from St Albans City Station to London St Pancras International. Then I wandered about in London by travelling on the tube for a few times. Coming back, instead of doing the same journey I took the London Midland from London Euston station to St Albans Abbey station via Watford junction. Unfortunately when I was on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey station I was told by the ticket inspetor that my ticket wasn't valid to travel on this route and he charged me a fine. Both St Albans City station and St Ablans Abbey station are in the same town, about a mile away. In my ticket, it printed St Albans* & London Zones 1-6, any permitted routes.

In terms shortest journey, London is so big it's really difficult to work out the shortest route. How about Heathrow Airport or east London to St Albans?

Was the ticket inspector right? Should I pay the fine?

By the way, he was very rude to me and once confiscated my ticket and hid it in his pocket only returned to me after I filled in all my personal information. I wonder do ticket inspetors have such rights to do so?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I may be wrong but I think it would have to say st Albans (all stations) or something like that to be valid. Otherwise it woud have to say st Albans abbey rather than just st Albans. Obviously being different companies LM wouldn't get the revenue for a FCC st Albans -London fare.

Pretty sure the ticket inspector can confiscate it as the t&cs of a ticket state it is railway property and must be surrendered on demand.
 

First class

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2008
Messages
2,733
Right

St Albans - London Zone 1-6


ODT - OFF-PEAK TCDSTD FCC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 15.00 = £ 15.00
__________
£ 15.00

Standard Class Single

So you then have to find the permitted routes between London and St Albans.

St Albans 1-6 Day Travelcard is more expensive than the St Albans Abbey 1-6 Day Travelcard.

I do believe it is valid and the Penalty Fare was incorrectly charged. If you used it during the peak then perhaps an excess fare was due?

No St Albans Stns group exists.

Where did you get stopped?

The ticket inspector is entitled to retain your ticket as it effectively his (acting on behalf of the train company). A receipt would be given if onward travel is required in the form of a RSP4408/UPFN.
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
17,750
Location
0035
At the risk of being a pedant, you were not charged a fine as only the courts have the power to do this.

Can you please advise us exactly what ticket you bought (what was printed on it and its price), and also the extra amount you were charged and what documentation or ticket you received to this effect?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
I may be wrong but I think it would have to say st Albans (all stations) or something like that to be valid. Otherwise it woud have to say st Albans abbey rather than just st Albans. Obviously being different companies LM wouldn't get the revenue for a FCC st Albans -London fare.

Pretty sure the ticket inspector can confiscate it as the t&cs of a ticket state it is railway property and must be surrendered on demand.
So you then have to find the permitted routes between London and St Albans.

St Albans 1-6 Day Travelcard is more expensive than the St Albans Abbey 1-6 Day Travelcard.

I do believe it is valid and the Penalty Fare was incorrectly charged. If you used it during the peak then perhaps an excess fare was due?

No St Albans Stns group exists.

Where did you get stopped?

The ticket inspector is entitled to retain your ticket as it effectively his (acting on behalf of the train company). A receipt would be given if onward travel is required in the form of a RSP4408/UPFN.
There was a discussion not long ago regarding travel from St Albans. At the time, I posted this, and John @ Home posted this. The matter is complicated by the fact that there is no St Albans Stations designation and tickets from City and Abbey stations are separate flows.

The matter is further complicated by the fact that it is a travelcard rather than a point-to-point ticket, and the fact that there is no consensus as to what constitutes a permitted route between a given point and Zone 6.

However it would be helpful if the OP can indicate whether he was given a Penalty Fare or else, and what the reason was stated on the paperwork.
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
Thank you all!

Yes, very strangely that I wasn't given any receipt or other forms of documents for my penalty. The ticket inspector didn't charge me at scene, instead he wrote down my personal details on my drive license such as name, address and date of birth. This happened just right after my boarding on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey.

My ticket details are as following:

STD off peak TCDS 13 pounds (as I have a Network rail card and I presented it when purchasing my ticket and the ticket inspector as well)

Between
St Albans* & London Zones 1-6 number: 03546
Route: Any permitted
Disc: MIN

He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.

What I care about isn't the charge but truth, and it's also very embrassing as it's full of passengers on the train, they might think I didn't have any ticket.
 

First class

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2008
Messages
2,733
Thank you all!

Yes, very strangely that I wasn't given any receipt or other forms of documents for my penalty. The ticket inspector didn't charge me at scene, instead he wrote down my personal details on my drive license such as name, address and date of birth. This happened just right after my boarding on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey.

My ticket details are as following:

STD off peak TCDS 13 pounds (as I have a Network rail card and I presented it when purchasing my ticket and the ticket inspector as well)

Between
St Albans* & London Zones 1-6 number: 03546
Route: Any permitted
Disc: MIN

He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.

What I care about isn't the charge but truth, and it's also very embrassing as it's full of passengers on the train, they might think I didn't have any ticket.
So you hold


ODT - OFF-PEAK TCDSTD FCC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 9.90 = £ 9.90

__________
£ 9.90

Standard Class Single
Minimum Fare:£ 13.00
£5 is aprox the difference between Peak/Off Peak.
 

lm321412

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2010
Messages
534
Location
Birmingham
Your ticket doesn't appear to have been valid no as they are both different flows and are not grouped together under one paticular designation such as ST ALBANS STNS. Its a case of two different TOCs operating from each paticular station and both having different fare structures.

I am concerned/confused about what you were charged. Excess Fare? PF? UPFN?

Whatever you were charged, you should have been given a reciept.
 

b0b

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,264
This is a really scammy system - I don't think the average punter would expect a ticket to St Albans would not be valid to St Albans Abbey (if it is invalid, which I can't decide!)

If its going to continue to be two separate flows maybe the ticket needs to be routed (either LM/FCC only), or its time to rename St Albans to St Albans Thameslink.
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
Did he not give you anything?
nothing at all.

I am very new to this country and only moved to St Albans less than 6 month. I really had no idea what was happening. I was scared, embarrassed, angry......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you hold




£5 is aprox the difference between Peak/Off Peak.
No, because I travelled both within off peak hours. What he tried to fine wasn't that I travelled in peak hours with off peak ticket but that my ticket was out of London zones 1 - 6. I guess this 5 pounds was the price from London Zone 6 boudry - St Albans Abbey.

It's right! LM is definitely not happy about my travelling on its train as it wont get any revenue from FCC.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.
I think it might have been the fare below:

Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans Abbey
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Single
£5.30

I can't find anything else that costs £5.30. Being below the minimum fare means you don't get railcard discounts.

However I still can't understand what he was trying to do. Maybe an Unpaid Fare Notice? But then I am baffled by the admin fee.
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
I think it might have been the fare below:

Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans Abbey
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Single
£5.30

I can't find anything else that costs £5.30. Being below the minimum fare means you don't get railcard discounts.

However I still can't understand what he was trying to do. Maybe an Unpaid Fare Notice? But then I am baffled by the admin fee.
Well, I have no idea either why he did so to me, especially when someonewas a foreigner. Local friends also told me about this Unpaid fare notice or Penalty Notice, but really he gave me nothing.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).
 

b0b

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,264
Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).

I think St Albans Thameslink would be much clearer, though City would be better than nothing at least.
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).
Thank you , I wonder if I would receive something heavy such as a posecution?
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
I think St Albans Thameslink would be much clearer, though City would be better than nothing at least.
However, from some places in London, it's shorter to travel via the Abbey station + walk to City station than directly to City Station. As long as it's the shortest it's permitted route, right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Highly doubtful. If you had been on First Capital Connect though, the chances would have been much higher. They like to make examples of people.
To be honest, I did travel to London by FCC this morning but LM won't know. I do like travelling in different routes and different operators, next time I will be more careful.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
However, from some places in London, it's shorter to travel via the Abbey station + walk to City station than directly to City Station. As long as it's the shortest it's permitted route, right?
If you read the links I put up in Post 6 earlier, you will see why this isn't quite the story, given the situation with the two St Albans stations.

It is further complicated by the fact that there is no definitive answer as to what the shortest distance from St Albans (not Abbey as they are not grouped under St Albans Stations) to Zone 6 on a permitted route is.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
6,114
Location
Crayford
This is further complicated by the fact that the routeing points for St Albans (and St Albans Abbey) are Bedford, Watford Junction and West Hampstead Thameslink. This tells me that you are expected to walk between the two if your route takes you via a routeing point served by the other.
 

hawaii2468

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
103
It's just too complicated. Anyway, thank you all so much for your help. I am still a bit worry about this fine bill and my weekend mood was also destroyed.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
If you want to hear something amusing regarding the two St Albans stations, a CDR from LUT (Luton) to SAC is £5.50. A CDR from LUT to SAA is £10!
I would assume that there is an error somewhere.

Luton - St Albans
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Return
£5.50

Luton - St Albans Abbey
Route St Albans Abbey
Off-Peak Return
£10.00

Luton - Park Street
Route St Albans Abbey
Off-Peak Return
£10.00

Who in their right frame of mind would buy the second ticket? I agree that it was probably intended to be routed involving a walk between the two stations, however I don't think LM's pricing manager thought it through.
 

OwlMan

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
3,207
Location
Bedworth, Warwickshire
Whether it is valid would depend whether using Watford Junction as the Routeing Point passses the Fares Rule.
The problem being what do we use for the fare comparison.
There are no tickets to London Terminals from St Albans, likewise there are no tickets to Lndon Thameslink from Watford Junction.
Travelcards issued from Watford Junction include zones 1-9 those frm St Albans cover zones 1-6.
Tickets to Boundary zone 6 go to different stations.
I am not sure what to use?

Peter
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
I don't know, but maybe it's to discourage the use of the line for local journeys by FCC, as it's priced by them. 10 pounds is ridiculous though, a return to WFJ is only £8.50 for god sake.
 

b0b

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,264
Whether it is valid would depend whether using Watford Junction as the Routeing Point passses the Fares Rule.
The problem being what do we use for the fare comparison.
There are no tickets to London Terminals from St Albans, likewise there are no tickets to Lndon Thameslink from Watford Junction.
Travelcards issued from Watford Junction include zones 1-9 those frm St Albans cover zones 1-6.
Tickets to Boundary zone 6 go to different stations.
I am not sure what to use?

Peter
That in itself should be more than enough to not penalize an innocent passenger, especially, going by the account of the OP, the very harsh attitude of the RPI - who sounds like he's hanging out looking for people to make the very understandable mistake to catch the St Albans train to St Albans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top