Help! St Albans to London day travel card

[bb21]

Ignore.

 

[sheff1]

Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

??

If you request a ticket from St Albans to Zones 1-6 via Watford Jn on the LM site they will happily sell you one with the itinerary including a walk to/from St Albans Abbey. It then seems a bit rich to be told your ticket is not valid on the very trains they have advised you to travel on when they sold it.

 

[bb21]

??

Trouble is, no one actually knows what happened to the OP and what the RPI did, not even the OP himself.

 

[asylumxl]

??

If you request a ticket from St Albans to Zones 1-6 via Watford Jn on the LM site they will happily sell you one with the itinerary including a walk to/from St Albans Abbey. It then seems a bit rich to be told your ticket is not valid on the very trains they have advised you to travel on when they sold it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. He went from SAC and came back via WFJ and SAA. WFJ is outside of Zone 6, and SAA is outside the zones entirely. I understood it as the RPI sold him an extension on his ticket rather than fining him.

 

[hawaii2468]

Trouble is, no one actually knows what happened to the OP and what the RPI did, not even the OP himself.

Well, he just simply marked down my name, date of birth, address and ID and said they would post me the fine bill. But he didn't give any receipt or notice on the train.

 

[bb21]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. He went from SAC and came back via WFJ and SAA. WFJ is outside of Zone 6, and SAA is outside the zones entirely. I understood it as the RPI sold him an extension on his ticket rather than fining him.

I think selling the Boundary Zone ticket was probably the best course of action, although it seems a little harsh given how even we find the whole situation confusing. Although that said, as it is not an off-route scenario, officially the OP could also be liable for over-riding his travelcard and hence a Penalty Fare.

I still don't understand the point of the admin fee however I think this is rather a moot point as we don't know what exactly was said.

 

[hawaii2468]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. He went from SAC and came back via WFJ and SAA. WFJ is outside of Zone 6, and SAA is outside the zones entirely. I understood it as the RPI sold him an extension on his ticket rather than fining him.

Can I see SAA as my destination? SAC is also outside of Zone 6.

 

[bb21]

Well, he just simply marked down my name, date of birth, address and ID and said they would post me the fine bill. But he didn't give any receipt or notice on the train.

You mentioned admin fee earlier, which is why I'm a little confused.

I think the £5.30 component you will be billed with will probably be a UPFN.

 

[sheff1]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. He went from SAC and came back via WFJ and SAA. WFJ is outside of Zone 6, and SAA is outside the zones entirely. I understood it as the RPI sold him an extension on his ticket rather than fining him.

Yes, I know what he did. The point I am making is that LM will sell you exactly this ticket if you want to travel back to St Albans via Watford, St Albans Abbey and then walk. So their booking site considers the route to be valid.

I do not see the relevance of WFJ being outside of Zone 6. Are you suggesting that because it is outside Zone 6 you can't come back that way ? On that basis anyone buying a Hemel Hempstead to Zones 1-6 ticket couldn't travel back via WFJ either.

 

[asylumxl]

Yes, I know what he did. The point I am making is that LM will sell you exactly this ticket if you want to travel back to St Albans via Watford, St Albans Abbey and then walk. So their booking site considers the route to be valid.

I do not see the relevance of WFJ being outside of Zone 6. Are you suggesting that because it is outside Zone 6 you can't come back that way ? On that basis anyone buying a Hemel Hempstead to Zones 1-6 ticket couldn't travel back via WFJ either.

What are you on about?

He had a ticket from SAC to Z1-6. It's not valid outside of Zone 6 apart from between Elstree and St Albans City. That's why I'm saying if he got a BZ6 to SAA ticket he was lucky.

 

[bb21]

??

If you request a ticket from St Albans to Zones 1-6 via Watford Jn on the LM site they will happily sell you one with the itinerary including a walk to/from St Albans Abbey. It then seems a bit rich to be told your ticket is not valid on the very trains they have advised you to travel on when they sold it.

Trouble with this is that, which I think is a major problem with the booking engine, it doesn't tell you that this itinerary is issued with a ticket from St Albans Abbey, not St Albans, unless you look very carefully, but tickets from St Albans and St Albans Abbey are not inter-changeable, so the round-trip that the OP travelled probably was not valid on either ticket.

 

[hawaii2468]

Yes, the main problem is that I didn't pay LM but took its train. I wonder what happen if I buy ticket from SAA to London travel card but travel from SAC on FCC? It seems it's fine as it is the option shown on LM and FCC or even National Rail websites.

 

[bb21]

Actually I see what you mean now. Ignore my post above.

In this case, my advice to the OP would be to make a reservation and print it out. Bring it with you when you travel. Of course when you travel down the Midland Mainline into St Pancras you won't encounter any trouble. When you come back via Watford Junction, even on a different service to the one you reserved, if you follow the exact route as the one you had reservation on, then the guard is very unlikely to have a problem as his/her company's own website suggests such a routeing.

I now think that the OP would have good grounds for a successful appeal.

 

[hawaii2468]

What are you on about?

He had a ticket from SAC to Z1-6. It's not valid outside of Zone 6 apart from between Elstree and St Albans City. That's why I'm saying if he got a BZ6 to SAA ticket he was lucky.

Do I have to travel via Elstree from SAC to London ?

 

[sheff1]

What are you on about?

He had a ticket from SAC to Z1-6. It's not valid outside of Zone 6 apart from between Elstree and St Albans City. That's why I'm saying if he got a BZ6 to SAA ticket he was lucky.

That is not my belief, based on the info provided on the LM site.

 

[bb21]

Furthermore. I think NRE also agrees that this is possible, and it is supposed to be the 'definitive source'. I don't think that the UPFN will stand now. What a mess!

 

[hawaii2468]

Can you explain what is NRE and UPFN? What doesn't it stand now? Thank you.

 

[asylumxl]

That is not my belief, based on the info provided on the LM site.

Well, I've never used LM site to be honest. I'm just going by what I know from using the relevant services.

 

[MikeWh]

East Coast will sell the ticket for £15 via Watford Jn.

Good spot. So will Southeastern. I don't think this charge is valid at all. Here is a screen capture showing details of a return journey for the £15.00 ticket from St Albans to London zones 1-6. It clearly describes trains from Euston to Watford Junction, then to St Albans Abbey, then walk to St Albans.

Furthermore, the fare for the equivalent Watford Junction to zones 1-6 travelcard is £14.50 which suggests that this should be a valid routeing point from St Albans.

 

[sheff1]

Can you explain what is NRE and UPFN? What doesn't it stand now? Thank you.

NRE is National Rail Enquiries. Their website is supposed to be the definitive source for rail travel in the UK. If that shows your ticket is valid for the journey you made you should not be charged again. This can only be strengthened by the fact that the LM site also says your ticket is valid on their train from Watford Jn to St Albans Abbey.

Unfortunately a number of people (both ticket checkers on trains or at stations and people on this forum) seem to ignore the definitive sources and make up their own rules.

Hope you get things sorted - I am off now.

 

[bb21]

Can you explain what is NRE and UPFN? What doesn't it stand now? Thank you.

NRE - National Rail Enquiries
UPFN - Unpaid Fare Notice

Good spot. So will Southeastern. I don't think this charge is valid at all. Here is a screen capture showing details of a return journey for the £15.00 ticket from St Albans to London zones 1-6. It clearly describes trains from Euston to Watford Junction, then to St Albans Abbey, then walk to St Albans.

Agree completely

 

[hawaii2468]

NRE is National Rail Enquiries. Their website is supposed to be the definitive source for rail travel in the UK. If that shows your ticket is valid for the journey you made you should not be charged again. This can only be strengthened by the fact that the LM site also says your ticket is valid on their train from Watford Jn to St Albans Abbey.

Unfortunately a number of people (both ticket checkers on trains or at stations and people on this forum) seem to ignore the definitive sources and make up their own rules.

That's great, thank you. I think the argueing point is whether I had changed a train from Watford Junction which is outside of Zone 6 then my ticket wasn't valid thereafter.

 

[bb21]

The original point was that your travelcard expired after you left the last station inside the zonal boundary as you're not on a permitted route. However as the booking engine recognises this as a valid route, this will be your evidence to back up your claim.

 

[hawaii2468]

The problem is , I bought my ticket at SAC station, not from LM site...

 

[MikeWh]

That's great, thank you. I think the argueing point is whether I had changed a train from Watford Junction which is outside of Zone 6 then my ticket wasn't valid thereafter.

The confusion is whether the route from Hatch End (last station in zone 6 on the Watford line) to St Albans via Watford Junction and St Albans Abbey finishing with a walk is valid or not. As several booking sites, including London Midland, say it is, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. When you get a letter in the post asking for the money, send them back a screenprint like the one I attached earlier showing it to be a valid route and ask them to cancel the charge. It is possible that when the details get back to LM from the RPI/guard that they will realise it wasn't correct and not persue it.

 

[bb21]

I don't see the problem. You consulted LM site to establish the validity of the itinerary. You then bought the ticket at the station. There is no requirement for you to check with the clerk again as you have already done so.

Edit: Do what MikeWh said above.

 

[hawaii2468]

I got your point, great! Thank you so much, I hope they don't change their website tonight after seeing this post lol!

 

[MikeWh]

I got your point, great! Thank you so much, I hope they don't change their website tonight after seeing this post lol!

They can't change my screenprint!

 

[hawaii2468]

But my outbound trip is done by FCC, it's another problem.

 

[bb21]

I got your point, great! Thank you so much, I hope they don't change their website tonight after seeing this post lol!

Get in quick!

I would say get an itinerary printed out/screen-grabbed for similar times next Friday to when you travelled today. If you're unsure about the letter, ask on here and I'm sure there'll be many people willing to help proof-read it.

Good luck.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But my outbound trip is done by FCC, it's another problem.

That's not an issue as your ticket is clearly valid this way. What we needed to establish is whether it is valid via Watford Junction, and we have just done that.