Help! St Albans to London day travel card

[bb21]

I also have a valid one for next Friday

I think you're safe.

 

[MikeWh]

But my outbound trip is done by FCC, it's another problem.

Doesn't matter. There is absolutely no doubt that using FCC to zone 6 is valid. There is no requirement to use the same route both ways as long as each is valid. The screenprint above proves that the route you were prevented from using without a further charge is indeed valid and you should not have been charged.

 

[hawaii2468]

Also I just found out a problem that to work out this result, you must put Via Watford in the advanced option, othersie it still shows St Albans - St Pancras by FCC. I wonder if the tickets still look the same whether it is via Watford or not.

 

[bb21]

Also I just found out a problem that to work out this result, you must put Via Watford in the advanced option, othersie it still shows St Albans - St Pancras by FCC. I wonder if the tickets still look the same whether it is via Watford or not.

If you look under 'Order Summary' in my picture, you'll see that it is the same ticket as the one you had. Also the price confirms it too.

 

[hawaii2468]

Great if you say so... I can sleep tight tonight now. Good night too! Thank you all so much!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[bb21]

Great if you say so... I can sleep tight tonight now. Good night too! Thank you all so much!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

For your peace of mind, here is the complete list of travelcard fares from St Albans (City) and St Albans Abbey in standard class:

St Albans - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Anytime Day Travelcard
£24.00

St Albans - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Travelcard
£15.00

St Albans - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard
£12.00

St Albans Abbey - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Anytime Day Travelcard
£20.30

St Albans Abbey - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Travelcard
£14.70

St Albans Abbey - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Family Travelcard
£13.40

Sleep tight. Your money should be safe.

 

[Mojo]

Any good company would investigate this matter and drop you a letter to confirm that their member of staff made a mistake and to apologise, however do not be alarmed if London Midland write to you requesting payment. In the event this happens, please post here and someone will contact you off-forum to help you draft a letter

 

[Poggs]

It's great to see that, ten years on from my personal battle to establish whether a walk between St Albans and St Albans is valid is still being fought I gave up in the end - I had a How Wood - R1256 season and just bought an SDS Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans whenever I wanted to travel the other way.

Here's something for consideration. If the walk between SAA and SAC is valid, does it maks a ticket from Park Street, How Wood and Bricket Wood (which IIRC share the same routeing points - possibly Garston (Herts) too?) to R1256 automatically valid all the way to St Albans Abbey? Assume you're going to walk to St Albans. But then factor in breaking your journey at a station where the fare to your destination is higher than you paid - is it still valid? Or is it absolutely impossible to tell whether you broke your journey or merely walked to SAC?

 

[MikeWh]

It's a mess, isn't it? I've just done some playing around on the LM site and the Routeing Guide. Every station from Watford North to St Albans Abbey shares the same routeing points as St Albans: Bedford, Watford Junction and West Hampstead Group. The fares to London All zones Travelcard are £14.50 from Watford Junction, Watford North, Garston and Bricket Wood; £14.60 from Park Street; £14.70 from How Wood and St Albans Abbey and £15.00 from St Albans. By default all stations on the branch route you via Watford Junction, but it is possible to ask to be routed via St Albans and the price remains the same. Understandably you cannot route via St Albans from Watford Junction.

I also tried to book a sample journey on First Capital Connect from Bricket Wood to St Pancras International including travelcard. It also wanted to charge me £14.50 and at the times I selected it routed me via Watford Junction and the Underground on the way in and via St Albans and walk to Abbey on the way back.

This has to be pretty conclusive proof that the ticket is valid both ways. It also means that no-one should pay more than £14.50 from any station on the branch or St Albans itself.

 

[hawaii2468]

It's a mess, isn't it? I've just done some playing around on the LM site and the Routeing Guide. Every station from Watford North to St Albans Abbey shares the same routeing points as St Albans: Bedford, Watford Junction and West Hampstead Group. The fares to London All zones Travelcard are £14.50 from Watford Junction, Watford North, Garston and Bricket Wood; £14.60 from Park Street; £14.70 from How Wood and St Albans Abbey and £15.00 from St Albans. By default all stations on the branch route you via Watford Junction, but it is possible to ask to be routed via St Albans and the price remains the same. Understandably you cannot route via St Albans from Watford Junction.

I also tried to book a sample journey on First Capital Connect from Bricket Wood to St Pancras International including travelcard. It also wanted to charge me £14.50 and at the times I selected it routed me via Watford Junction and the Underground on the way in and via St Albans and walk to Abbey on the way back.

This has to be pretty conclusive proof that the ticket is valid both ways. It also means that no-one should pay more than £14.50 from any station on the branch or St Albans itself.

Does that mean I can pay 14.70 for the ticket starts from St Albans Abbey but use St Albans and FCC?

 

[MikeWh]

Does that mean I can pay 14.70 for the ticket starts from St Albans Abbey but use St Albans and FCC?

Yes, but ...

I would not attempt to buy a St Albans Abbey to zones 1-6 travelcard at St Albans itself. You could buy it online, preferably printing out a sample itinery describing a journey starting and finishing with the walk, then pick it up at a machine (TVM) at St Albans. Always have your itinery to hand until you get inside zone 6.

 

[bb21]

It's great to see that, ten years on from my personal battle to establish whether a walk between St Albans and St Albans is valid is still being fought I gave up in the end - I had a How Wood - R1256 season and just bought an SDS Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans whenever I wanted to travel the other way.

Here's something for consideration. If the walk between SAA and SAC is valid, does it maks a ticket from Park Street, How Wood and Bricket Wood (which IIRC share the same routeing points - possibly Garston (Herts) too?) to R1256 automatically valid all the way to St Albans Abbey? Assume you're going to walk to St Albans. But then factor in breaking your journey at a station where the fare to your destination is higher than you paid - is it still valid? Or is it absolutely impossible to tell whether you broke your journey or merely walked to SAC?

How do you determine a How Wood - R1256 (Zones 1-6 Travelcard) season validity?

If you look at the distance of How Wood to the nearest London Terminal. How Wood - Watford Junction - Euston is 22 miles according to NRT. How Wood - St Albans Abbey - St Albans - St Pancras is also 22 miles. How can anyone argue against that? I can't see how it is not reasonable to assume that a R1256 season is just a travelcard added on top of a normal How Wood - London Terminals ticket.

I therefore conclude that using the 3-mile rule, your season ticket was valid either way and you had been fobbed off big time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does that mean I can pay 14.70 for the ticket starts from St Albans Abbey but use St Albans and FCC?

Park Street - London Terminals is valid either way due to the 3-mile rule, however if you go via Watford Junction (for either portion) then you are not covered for Park Street - St Albans Abbey and would need a separate ticket for that section.

 

[clagmonster]

If you look at the distance of How Wood to the nearest London Terminal. How Wood - Watford Junction - Euston is 22 miles according to NRT. How Wood - St Albans Abbey - St Albans - St Pancras is also 22 miles. How can anyone argue against that? I can't see how it is not reasonable to assume that a R1256 season is just a travelcard added on top of a normal How Wood - London Terminals ticket.

Is it defined anywhere what an outboundary Travelcard is? It could be as you describe, or alternatively a day return to Boundary Zone 6 with a Zones 1-6 travelcard added on. In which case, to calculate the shortest distance, we would have:
How Wood-St Albans Abbey 2.25
St Albans Abbey-St Albans ? (lets say 0 for now)
St Albans-Elstree 7.5
Total 9.75

How Wood-Watford Jn 4.5
Watford Jn-Hatch End 4.5
Total 9

So Watford is the shortest route, but if you apply the three mile rule then both routes are valid.

I think we need some clarification on this (probably best gained by finding out how to calculate permitted routes for outboundary Travelcards and how to include walks when calculating shortest distances as vague questions). The question is, would ATOC actually respond to the question?

 

[bb21]

Is it defined anywhere what an outboundary Travelcard is? It could be as you describe, or alternatively a day return to Boundary Zone 6 with a Zones 1-6 travelcard added on. In which case, to calculate the shortest distance, we would have:
How Wood-St Albans Abbey 2.25
St Albans Abbey-St Albans ? (lets say 0 for now)
St Albans-Elstree 7.5
Total 9.75

How Wood-Watford Jn 4.5
Watford Jn-Hatch End 4.5
Total 9

So Watford is the shortest route, but if you apply the three mile rule then both routes are valid.

I think we need some clarification on this (probably best gained by finding out how to calculate permitted routes for outboundary Travelcards and how to include walks when calculating shortest distances as vague questions). The question is, would ATOC actually respond to the question?

Yes I agree. That's why I mentioned previously that there was no consensus on this issue on this forum. We've discussed it so many times and never actually agreed on the definition.

I just used the most favourable interpretation from the passenger's perspective in the post above and can't really see how the TOCs can argue against it.

 

[Lee_Again]

That's why I mentioned previously that there was no consensus on this issue on this forum. We've discussed it so many times and never actually agreed on the definition.

The pedant in side has been loving this thread, my favourite so far this year in this section. If you experts can't agree then god help the rest of us.

On a broader point, does this mean that any stations that are close enough to walk between (like the two St Albans stations) but have different London Terminals the ticket is valid both ways. I can only think of Hertford North and Hertford East but I'm sure there are many others.

 

[causton]

The pedant in side has been loving this thread, my favourite so far this year in this section. If you experts can't agree then god help the rest of us.

On a broader point, does this mean that any stations that are close enough to walk between (like the two St Albans stations) but have different London Terminals the ticket is valid both ways. I can only think of Hertford North and Hertford East but I'm sure there are many others.

This is different because Hertford North + East are part of a Hertford Stns group, if you look Hertford North - London Terminals up in Avantix no relevant fares will come up... you have to look from Hertford Stns (0413) which is priced by FCC but valid to either KGX,MOG or Liv St.

However, there is no "St Albans Stns" group - just "St Albans" (City) and "St Albans Abbey" which is the source of confusion!

 

[Lee_Again]

This is different because Hertford North + East are part of a Hertford Stns group, if you look Hertford North - London Terminals up in Avantix no relevant fares will come up... you have to look from Hertford Stns (0413) which is priced by FCC but valid to either KGX,MOG or Liv St.

However, there is no "St Albans Stns" group - just "St Albans" (City) and "St Albans Abbey" which is the source of confusion!

I understand. So, presumably, if somebody 'fixed' that problem the situation would be resolved.

Are there many others? I guess London Terminals doesn't have to be the terminal. What about the two Bradford stations. Are both valid as one transaction?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Southend Central and Southend Victoria are (along with Southend East) part of a Southend Stations group. Tickets to London from NXEA/Southend Vic are substantially more expensive than those on c2c from Southend Central/East/

This has been discussed here previously (with the seeming conclusion being the tickets should be interavailable, according to the routing guide - and according to some journeys put into National Rail Enquiries journey planner). Practice on the ground however strongly suggests otherwise.

 

[Lee_Again]

This has been discussed here previously (with the seeming conclusion being the tickets should be interavailable, according to the routing guide - and according to some journeys put into National Rail Enquiries journey planner). Practice on the ground however strongly suggests otherwise.

So, what's the deal on this forum then. Does somebody write to ATOC (or whoever looks after fares) or do we keep quiet?

I had an unrelated question recently, which I think Yorkie kindly helped me with, and the conclusion was to say nothing. Just curious. Not wishing to open a can of worms.

 

[bb21]

So, what's the deal on this forum then. Does somebody write to ATOC (or whoever looks after fares) or do we keep quiet?

I had an unrelated question recently, which I think Yorkie kindly helped me with, and the conclusion was to say nothing. Just curious. Not wishing to open a can of worms.

Depends I think. A bit of both. However if there's a good risk that unfavourable changes will be made then it would be foolish to bring the issue to ATOC's attention, wouldn't it?

 

[Lee_Again]

Depends I think. A bit of both. However if there's a good risk that unfavourable changes will be made then it would be foolish to bring the issue to ATOC's attention, wouldn't it?

That goes without saying. I was thinking more in terms of 'working together'. It's my understading that some ATOC staff members read these forums. If those examples where there appears to be some contradictions and confusion were passed up to ATOC for review that would benefit us, in terms of getting a positive outcome, and ATOC to fill some gaps.

For what it's worth, I find the biggest scandal, not the odd gap in ATOC's complex rules, but the way TOC's seem to make up there own rules and worse, allow badly trained staff to suggest that we're breaking the law. Some of the things I've read on this forum make me so mad. And even though many of us aren't experts, we probably know a bit more than the general public. How the hell are they going to understand or defend themselves when put upon by these over zealous RPI's.

 

[island]

For what it's worth, I find the biggest scandal, not the odd gap in ATOC's complex rules, but the way TOC's seem to make up there own rules and worse, allow badly trained staff to suggest that we're breaking the law. Some of the things I've read on this forum make me so mad. And even though many of us aren't experts, we probably know a bit more than the general public. How the hell are they going to understand or defend themselves when put upon by these over zealous RPI's.

Indeed. And while some of the regular posters here would be reasonably well-able to defend themselves and pay no money now to sort the matter out with head office, I'd wager an average Joe on the train hasn't a clue what a UPFN is, or if he does, thinks it's a fine that he has to pay pronto to avoid it going up.

 

[Lee_Again]

Indeed. And while some of the regular posters here would be reasonably well-able to defend themselves and pay no money now to sort the matter out with head office, I'd wager an average Joe on the train hasn't a clue what a UPFN is, or if he does, thinks it's a fine that he has to pay pronto to avoid it going up.

Exactly my point, island.

Imagine passenger Mr A travels from both Hertford East and Hertford North to Kings Cross or Liverpool St. Then one morning decides to travel from St Albans City to St Pancras. On his return he travels back, via Watford, to St Albans Abbey. RPI says, "this ticket isn't valid". "Why's that" enquires Mr A. It's not a valid route. Mr A replies, "well I do it all the time from Hertford". "So", comes the reply. "And here is a £xx fine" etc etc.

To be fair to the RPI, they just do what they're told/trained. It's the TOC that are ultimately to blame with their 'school bully' type attitude.

 

[talltim]

I may have missed this bit, but
The ticket says St Albans* Does a ticket from St Albans Abbey say something different? If not how did the RPI know which station it was from/to anyway?

 

[island]

Yes, a ticket from St. Albans Abbey says St. Albans Abbey!

 

[jon0844]

To be fair to the RPI, they just do what they're told/trained. It's the TOC that are ultimately to blame with their 'school bully' type attitude.

On my last journey to WGC (for those who don't know, I travel from Old Street here every now and then, so can't get an extension on my season to Hatfield and must be sold a ticket at the destination), I encountered a new RPI - only a few months in by his own admission and when I asked him to sell me the extension, he went to get his machine - but then stopped to ask why I didn't know to buy before I got on.

I said I did know to buy before, but couldn't. I then had to explain that Old Street is an LUL station and they don't do extensions. He was happy to hear that as he hadn't been told this! I said it may also apply to Moorgate too.

Then I showed the letter from FCC giving permission to buy at the destination 'just to prove I wasn't making it up' and he said 'Oh, don't worry, I wouldn't give a penalty fare to a season ticket holder. I am allowed discretion'.

Now the odd thing is, surely even a season ticket can be given a PF if it's valid?! He seemed to think that I was in some way more important than anyone else, but anyone else with a ticket to X who wanted an extension from Old Street to Y would be entitled to buy a ticket there too.

Anyway, he then charged me my £1.60 and let me through the gate and said I didn't need to put it in the machine! Odd, given I may as well have done to make sure it was used. So, I tore it up and threw it away outside the station!

Some consistency is certainly needed, as well as proper training! I am sure this new rookie RPI will soon learn that discretion isn't something to use too often. If he doesn't start giving PFs out soon, I'm sure his boss will be having words!

 

[bb21]

On my last journey to WGC (for those who don't know, I travel from Old Street here every now and then, so can't get an extension on my season to Hatfield and must be sold a ticket at the destination), I encountered a new RPI - only a few months in by his own admission and when I asked him to sell me the extension, he went to get his machine - but then stopped to ask why I didn't know to buy before I got on.

I said I did know to buy before, but couldn't. I then had to explain that Old Street is an LUL station and they don't do extensions. He was happy to hear that as he hadn't been told this! I said it may also apply to Moorgate too.

Then I showed the letter from FCC giving permission to buy at the destination 'just to prove I wasn't making it up' and he said 'Oh, don't worry, I wouldn't give a penalty fare to a season ticket holder. I am allowed discretion'.

Now the odd thing is, surely even a season ticket can be given a PF if it's valid?! He seemed to think that I was in some way more important than anyone else, but anyone else with a ticket to X who wanted an extension from Old Street to Y would be entitled to buy a ticket there too.

Anyway, he then charged me my £1.60 and let me through the gate and said I didn't need to put it in the machine! Odd, given I may as well have done to make sure it was used. So, I tore it up and threw it away outside the station!

Some consistency is certainly needed, as well as proper training! I am sure this new rookie RPI will soon learn that discretion isn't something to use too often. If he doesn't start giving PFs out soon, I'm sure his boss will be having words!

From the passenger's point of view, rather more of his type than that nasty piece of work you encountered before.