• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Help with refunds please

Status
Not open for further replies.

inside_edge

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
7
Hello all.

Your help here would be greatly appreciated.

On New Years Eve, I was travelling from Milton Keynes to Taunton.
I had booked two separate advance tickets one from MKC to BHM and the other from BHM to TAU (to make the cost cheaper), these were purchased at the end of November. On the day of travel, I checked with NRE website to see if my train was running on time. MKC to BHM seemed to be fine, but BHM to TAU didn't show up! I also checked on Crosscountry's website, but the closest train was departing later than my booked train and it terminated BRI. I then had to get an onward connection to TAU on an FGW stopper which would've got me into TAU at 11ish, 3 hours after my booked journey's arrival time.
I called up XC customer services, got through straight away and they were very helpful. I said that I was not satisfied with travelling on the later journey, as when I booked the ticket I was under the impression that I would get in around 8ish. They looked at my booking and they thought that iehter the system didn't take into account the December timetable changes or there were engineering works, which is my responsibility to check (there were no engineering services from BHM to TAU on that evening). After much persuasion, they gave me an Authority to Travel on a earlier direct XC service.
However this meant that I could not get the booked train from MKC due to the earlier departure from BHM. I called up VT to see if they would let me travel on an earlier train, but they said that the XC's mistake was not their responsibility, so I had to pay for a cheap day single from MKC to BHM.

Its a complicated scenario, I know, but what I am entitled to here in terms of a refund?

Ideally, I would like everything refunded due to XC messing up with the timetable, but would understand if XC didn't want to give me one as they had given me the ATT letter.
But I would like the off-peak single from MKC to BHM refunded as this wasn't a fault on my part.

Thanks for your help in advance.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
Hello all.

Your help here would be greatly appreciated.

On New Years Eve, I was travelling from Milton Keynes to Taunton.
I had booked two separate advance tickets one from MKC to BHM and the other from BHM to TAU (to make the cost cheaper), these were purchased at the end of November. On the day of travel, I checked with NRE website to see if my train was running on time. MKC to BHM seemed to be fine, but BHM to TAU didn't show up! I also checked on Crosscountry's website, but the closest train was departing later than my booked train and it terminated BRI. I then had to get an onward connection to TAU on an FGW stopper which would've got me into TAU at 11ish, 3 hours after my booked journey's arrival time.
I called up XC customer services, got through straight away and they were very helpful. I said that I was not satisfied with travelling on the later journey, as when I booked the ticket I was under the impression that I would get in around 8ish. They looked at my booking and they thought that iehter the system didn't take into account the December timetable changes or there were engineering works, which is my responsibility to check (there were no engineering services from BHM to TAU on that evening). After much persuasion, they gave me an Authority to Travel on a earlier direct XC service.
However this meant that I could not get the booked train from MKC due to the earlier departure from BHM. I called up VT to see if they would let me travel on an earlier train, but they said that the XC's mistake was not their responsibility, so I had to pay for a cheap day single from MKC to BHM.

Its a complicated scenario, I know, but what I am entitled to here in terms of a refund?

Ideally, I would like everything refunded due to XC messing up with the timetable, but would understand if XC didn't want to give me one as they had given me the ATT letter.
But I would like the CDS from MKC to BHM refunded as this wasn't a fault on my part.

Thanks for your help in advance.

To give us a better idea of who exactly it is to blame if you could give us the times you were originally quoted when you purchased the ticket, the times they had changed to and the reason why they had changed.
 

inside_edge

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
7
Original booking: (Booked on 27/11/2008)

Journey 1: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL to BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
Ticket Type: ADVANCE SINGLE
Route: This ticket is only valid when travelling exclusively on Virgin Trains.

Outward Journey: 31/12/2008
departs MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL at 17:13 travel by Train service provider VIRGIN TRAINS to station BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET arrives 18:08

Journey 1: BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET to TAUNTON

Ticket Type: ADVANCE SINGLE
Route: This ticket is only valid on CrossCountry services.
Outward Journey: 31/12/2008
departs BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET at 19:12 travel by Train service provider CROSSCOUNTRY to station TAUNTON arrives 21:15

(This leg had been taken off the timetable)

Actual journey:

For the 1st leg, I had to travel on an earlier train (can't remember which exactly, but it had to give me time to get the connection below) with a separate off peak single.
For the 2nd leg, I travelled on the 18:12 BHM to TAU with the ATT, that XC had given me.

Crosscountry told me it was probably their fault, because of an error by the booking system not taking into account December timetable changes.
 

The_Rail_WAy

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2008
Messages
458
In my opinion they should cough up. I believe it was their responsibilty to have been aware of any timetable changes - to say that you should have checked beforehand is simply ridiculous.

A politeley worded letter would be a start. It sounds like a complicated business so make sure you get all the details right. Also if you can remember the name of the member of customer services staff you spoke too and the time of the call this would help.

Getting a refund for a rail ticket is a very difficult business so best of luck - maybe some other people can give better help/advise.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Herein lies the problem with split tickets, especially 'advance' ones. I don't want to be the bringer of bad news, but what I would like to think would happen is very different to what I believe will happen.

As far as I see it, VWC were quite right to say they couldn't help (they are not contracted to take you all, or part of, the way from Birmingham to Taunton), you were asking them to change the ticket, it was not their fault. AXC, however, have no say on the MK to Brum ticket because you have no contract with them for that journey. If you write a politely worded letter to AXC or VWC you *might* get the money for one of the tickets (although I can't say which), but that would be a 'customer service' issue, not a legal one.

I think others will have different views on this, but I believe this is the way it is.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,901
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
I'd send the whole lot to XC and see what they say. It seems to be luck of the draw on who opens your letter but I'd bet you get something back even if its a £5 "for your inconvenience" apology.

Another shining example of our wonderful privatised railway...!
 

ian13

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2008
Messages
166
Given AXC's mistake, at that point you were entitled to accept other arrangements or you could have legally requested a full refund for the cost of the ticket. However, any replacement would outweigh this refund, so you were sensible to get an authority to travel on an earlier train. However, Birmingham to Taunton was all that AXC was contracted to provide.

Now, Virgin could have let you travel on a different train if they wished, but they were under no obligation to do so, as onward Birmingham travel was nothing to do with them. As a result, they do not have to provide a refund for your inability to travel.

I'm not sure what would have happened if you had got to B'ham and found your train no-longer existed though.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
What I'd probably have done would be to take the first train as booked, then you still have a chance of getting the earlier train at BHM. Failing that, get on the booked train after 1 hour delay in BHM then claim 100% compensation for the BHM-TAU leg. I'd definitely have done that if the BHM-TAU leg was the greater portion of the cost, and if it didn't matter if I arrived late.

But if I needed to be there for a certain time then that would not work and I'd send the bill to XC.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,841
I am confused as to why the booking system managed to book you an Advance Purchase ticket on a train that doesn't exist, definatly XCs fault, they should refund you from Milton Keynes to Birmingham.
 

voyagerdude220

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2005
Messages
3,264
Question for Yorkie in particular:

I always had the understanding that when you purchase two advance singles (i.e. split) for your journey, e.g. MKC-BHM-TAU , that you are still "protected" against any delays occured during your first leg, which may mean that you need to get a later train on the second leg, as long as you allow sufficient time at the split station (in this case Birmingham N St)

Say:

08:10 Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham N St arrive 09:23 - £25
10:10 Birmingham N St to Taunton arrive 12:17- £14

Standard Anytime- £82

Wouldn't I be protected then?

(n.b. all fares/times are made up ;))
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
I believe that to be the case, yes. NCoC make it clear that you can combine tickets to make one "journey" (singular). I don't agree with Hairyhandedfool's interpretations and have made that clear in the past. Although I note that he doesn't think it's morally right that the TOCs do this it's just his interpretation so no bad feelings ;)
 

devon_metro

Established Member
Joined
11 Oct 2005
Messages
7,715
Location
London
Cross Country customer services are hopeless, I sent off an email complaint 11 days ago and still await a reply...
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Cross Country customer services are hopeless, I sent off an email complaint 11 days ago and still await a reply...
Odd. I know some of the guys up there and they seem to get on with their work quickly and efficiently and have never had any trouble with them before (as a customer).

Did you get an auto reply?
 

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
I found them to be quite polite but very incompetent. On the last day of Brighton services I telephoned them to enquire if the last services were running or not. They had no idea what I was on about, had no managers on duty spend ages ringing control and in the end finally found out when they rang me back 3 hours later (the services were not running).
 

devon_metro

Established Member
Joined
11 Oct 2005
Messages
7,715
Location
London
Odd. I know some of the guys up there and they seem to get on with their work quickly and efficiently and have never had any trouble with them before (as a customer).

Did you get an auto reply?

Yeh, they are past the 10 days that they state.
 

inside_edge

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
7
Hi Guys, thanks for all your replies.

I sent the letter off today, and will let you know what the outcome is. If XC don't give a refund, then in the future I will be reluctant to purchase advance tickets separately for different TOCs.

I have to say that XC's customer service was better than Virgin's who put me through to India after having to wait 15mins. With XC, I got straight through and spoke to someone in what sounded like the Midlands.
 

voyagerdude220

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2005
Messages
3,264
then in the future I will be reluctant to purchase advance tickets separately for different TOCs.

Although that's your own decision which i respect, i constantly use split AP singles, just like my 4 First Class last Friday which covered me through both the East and West Coast Mainlines, with the sole 1,276 miles which i've travelled so far this year, at the time of writing, and have always been backed up whenever i've been to the relevant ticket office etc when needed.

One free FC single on Virgin Trains even got altered from the cancelled 16:49, to 17:35 Euston to Manchester, bypassing the perfectly acceptable 17:05 Euston to Manchester, giving myself a very nice Primo 3-couse meal for nothing at all, vice still very good daytime snacks.
 

djw1981

Established Member
Joined
10 Jul 2007
Messages
2,642
Location
Glasgow
Hello all.

Your help here would be greatly appreciated.

On New Years Eve, I was travelling from Milton Keynes to Taunton.
I had booked two separate advance tickets one from MKC to BHM and the other from BHM to TAU (to make the cost cheaper), these were purchased at the end of November.
<snip>
They looked at my booking and they thought that iehter the system didn't take into account the December timetable changes or there were engineering works, which is my responsibility to check (there were no engineering services from BHM to TAU on that evening).

You may be able to get the unused MKC-BHM ticket refunded, subject to the usual administration fee, which may make it not worthwhile.

Where did you book the tickets, in person or online? IIRC XC online sales is run using an XC front end to the trainline.com backend system. Thus Xc may blame trainline thus saying it is say it is a 3rd party mistake, as trainline had an incorrect timetable. However, as I read it, this is not the case because although the mistake may have been made by someone else, your 'contract' (and billing details on your card statement) will be for whichever TOC you bought the tickets through.

If you booked it in person, then the ticket office responsible had incorrect information on its system, and then responsibility should lie with the selling agent.

Although you state that there was no engineering work that evening, is that based on the NRE site of the WON? Many TOC's had an early wind down of services that evening, partly due to the festivities, but also because NR and track maintenance teams were talking longer possessions. However, due to teh nature of the holiday and reduced services that day, these would not all be shown as 'engineering work' nor replaced by RRS.

IANAL, nor am I defending the actions of XC but as you said in your initial post, this situation is more complex than it may at first seem.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
I have to say that XC's customer service was better than Virgin's who put me through to India after having to wait 15mins. With XC, I got straight through and spoke to someone in what sounded like the Midlands.
Yep. XC staff are based at the CrossCountry HQ at Cannon House in Birmingham.
 

inside_edge

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
7
Hello all.

I received a reply from CrossCountry yesterday.

They gave gave me vouchers to cover the cost of the Milton Keynes - Taunton leg.

It says:
"I am sorry for the confusion caused by the amended timetable for the evening on 31 December, however amendments are usual with all public transport on New Years Eve and these were updated on all computer systems at least 10 weeks in advance. I do appreciate that printed timetables do not contain a disclaimer for this fact, but we do expect passengers to check for timetable amendments near the time of travel"

Firstly, I did book the ticket within 10 weeks of the journey and secondly, if the timetable does change, and I have an advance ticket purchased with another TOC, then how do I go about changing this?
I'm tempted to reply to the letter. What do other people think?
 

Trains06

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2009
Messages
180
Yep. XC staff are based at the CrossCountry HQ at Cannon House in Birmingham.

Sorry that this is a bit un-helpful but when I rung up Customer Services last I definitley spoke to an english woman...

Inside Edge,
If I were you I would write to them and tell them (and proove if you can) that you purchased them within 10 weeks of the journey. I do admit however, that ALL TOC's advise you to check train times as close to the journey time as possible, and - I would imagine - that hints towards them doing something about it if all goes wrong?

Im pretty sure you won't get any refunds from Virgin, because they aren't/weren't oblidged to give you a refund or have let you travel on an earlier train.

Ill be checking this thread soon!

~06~
 

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
Hello all.

I received a reply from CrossCountry yesterday.

They gave gave me vouchers to cover the cost of the Milton Keynes - Taunton leg.

It says:
"I am sorry for the confusion caused by the amended timetable for the evening on 31 December, however amendments are usual with all public transport on New Years Eve and these were updated on all computer systems at least 10 weeks in advance. I do appreciate that printed timetables do not contain a disclaimer for this fact, but we do expect passengers to check for timetable amendments near the time of travel"

Firstly, I did book the ticket within 10 weeks of the journey and secondly, if the timetable does change, and I have an advance ticket purchased with another TOC, then how do I go about changing this?
I'm tempted to reply to the letter. What do other people think?

Not much point replying, you've got a good outcome in my opinion and anything else you reply with is not likely to resonate well with anyone in Customer Services. I realise it's frustrating when a company is giving misconstrued information but I doubt another letter is going to help.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Sorry that this is a bit un-helpful but when I rung up Customer Services last I definitley spoke to an english woman...
And last time I checked, Birmingham was in England...
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
True, Buuurrr-ming-'um is about as central England as you can get.:lol:

If another letter is written it will probably get another incorrect standard response, possibly randomly picked from a pile. "Sir, I enjoyed looking at your letter but due to time constraints I did not read it thoroughly. I am sorry your journey on CrossCountry met our low standards, but we can confirm it is your responsbility to ensure that the train you intend to catch is on time. On this occasion we will give you a £5 voucher as a gesture of goodwill but we accept no liability for the cancellation. We make no apology for the lack of buffet car as we now offer an at-seat service. If the trolley is unable to get through due to overcrowding then that is the fault of too many passengers and we apologise on behalf of the excess passengers and can assure you we will be deterring them from inconveniencing you in future. Please don't confuse us with Arriva bus services, we are capable of independent thought and these letters are indeed written by experts who have read your letter in detail and any contradictions in this letter are entirely co-incidental. Thank you for travelling with Arri..err, CrossCountry. By the way we have no connection with Arriva.";)

No, seriously, there's no point wasting any more of your life writing letters to people who can't be bothered to read them. Glad you got some money back though!
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
What is everyone's problem with CrossCountry and Arriva? Up until recently, National Express never advertised their brand on franchises, and still don't on all. The parent companies of some other TOCs such as Northern also don't do this and nor do GoVia/Go-Ahead companies.

Staff with CrossCountry watch videos about Arriva and are full aware of the situation. The reality is that the CrossCountry franchise gets a lot of independance from the main group due to the fact that it is quite a different network from what they've run before.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top