Helsby-ellesmere port line

[frodshamfella]

I am a new user, and live quite local to this line. I actually made a point of going on it today(Saturday) to see it for myself. I left Frodsham at 15.37, changed at Helsby and then took the branch from there to Ellesmere Port departing at 1548, in at 1559. I then took the same train back out of Ellesmere Port, at 1604 which took me directly back to Frodsham, it continued to Warrington BQ.

Some things I noticed, timetables at Frodsham and Helsby, dont show any times to travel to Ellesmere Port, which seems odd, and yet there was one for Eastham Rake ??!. Very few passengers were on the outward bound train from Helsby, and I beleive I was the only passenger on the return. No one asked me if I wanted to buy a ticket on both sectors, so actually I paid nothing for the ride. This service seems such a Cinderella line, I did some googling and found this forum and noticed that the route has been discussed before, so i became interested. It would appear that there is potential for the route to be much busier should a more attractive service be launched.

I did enjoy my little ride, and will probably do it again, seems such a forgotten line, what would make more sense is if the Merseyrail service could extend onwards, ideally onto the Halton Curve..say to Liverpool (calling at the new South Parkway for the airport) to create a circular service. I know this would be along way off...electrification, upgrade of Halton Curve....money !!

Anyway hope i enjoy reading posts on this site.

Carl

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yep, in an even more ideal word, you would third rail Ellesmere-Warrington-Preston, where it would connect with the proposed third rail to Ormskirk . I went on it a couple of year back, Stanlow and Ince & Elton were deadly quiet, and Ellesmere Port too. Strange how in the Northern timetable for the route (15), it shows times for WBQ, then Helsby, even though it calls at Runcorn East and Frodsham in between. But seen as the two intermidiate stations on the branch are primarily there becuase of the massive industrial units there, and no proper towns etc, it doesn't look like changing soon, but fingers crossed for third rail to come

 

[tbtc]

Supposedly third rail electrification wouldn't work due to the refineries

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How? OHLE it then, and run a new service from Preston via Wigan NW and Earlestown . Don't mention the old 'where's the stock coming from?' stuff please

 

[daikilo]

How? OHLE it then, and run a new service from Preston via Wigan NW and Earlestown . Don't mention the old 'where's the stock coming from?' stuff please

Hang on, very few westbound and maybe none eastbound? Do we need a train or a taxi?

Issues such as 3rd rail, OHLE, frequency become irrelevant until there is a solid traveller base.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hang on, very few westbound and maybe none eastbound? Do we need a train or a taxi?

Issues such as 3rd rail, OHLE, frequency become irrelevant until there is a solid traveller base.

but the new service, regularly, to warrington, Wigan and Preston will take those qho go to Liverpool off it, as well as providing new journey oppertunities for Cheshire (like Frodsham, Runcorn East, and more trains Warrington-Preston). I didn't say the last portion of the journey had to be busy

 

[Greenback]

Maybe there is a low traveller base due to the nature and frequency of the services? I'm not fully conversant with the line or the area, so I cna't comment, but it's a classic chicken and egg situation really.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Bit like the HoW or Pembroke, if you put on more trains, more people will use them (used those two examples for the benefit of Greenback )

 

[frodshamfella]

I seem to recall reading something in a rail magazine not too long a go about Merseyrail, and the fact they could electrify to Bidston-Wrexham line at a fraction of what Network Rail are proposing. Merseyrail, seem tobe quite a progressive railway company, and i think its fair to say rails services in merseyside operated by them, have really turned round. It would be great if Northern rail let them take over E.Port-Helsby and Halton curve as well ( I understand there is some elctric question mark near Stanlow). We may then see a frequent service from E.Port, to Helsby, but also Frodsham etc...The Arriva Train Wales service is only hourly, normally 1 or 2 carriages, and very overcrowded.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Merseyrail, seem tobe quite a progressive railway company, and i think its fair to say rails services in merseyside operated by them, have really turned round. It would be great if Northern rail let them take over E.Port-Helsby and Halton curve as well ........

Merseyrail are like GMPTE, TSY, WYM and the other one, as PTEs they seem to have better ideas and more influence over rail in their area. I'm afraid Northern can do nothing about giving the line to Merseyrail, NR, ATOC, DfT etc all get involved. There was something about Runcorn East a while ago about improving waiting shelters, getting info screens and rebuilding the booking office and putting in a ticket ,machine. Don't know what came of it. But I go agree you could so with better rail services on that stretch Warrington-Chester/Ellesmere Port

 

[Polarbear]

I remember when the service between Hooton & Helsby was at 30 minute intervals during the day & I don't recall it loading particularly heavily east of Ellesmere Port. It went hourly for a while, then was heavily pruned to what we have today.

Ince & Elton station serves the only population centre along the route & this has an hourly bus service which runs from Runcorn to Ellesmere Port. Whilst fairly well used, it's 1 bus an hour each way compared to a train with a much larger capacity. In other words, I don't think there's a market for a much more frequent service on this line as things stand.

One idea may have been to run a service from Chester, fast to Hooton, (reverse), then through E'port to Helsby, then Halton Curve, Runcorn & Liverpool. However, with the Chester - Liverpool service being ramped up to a 15 minute frequency from December, paths will be hard to come by. There would also be the not incosiderable question of how to resource the stock for the service as well, (one reason the hourly service was dropped as the stock could be better utilised elsewhere).

Can't see it being sparked up any time soon - if ever!

 

[tbtc]

the stock could be better utilised elsewhere

Sadly, that's it summed up

Any spare stock in that part of Cheshire would be better beefing up Liverpool - Chester or Manchester - Chester etc.

 

[frodshamfella]

Merseyrail are like GMPTE, TSY, WYM and the other one, as PTEs they seem to have better ideas and more influence over rail in their area. I'm afraid Northern can do nothing about giving the line to Merseyrail, NR, ATOC, DfT etc all get involved. There was something about Runcorn East a while ago about improving waiting shelters, getting info screens and rebuilding the booking office and putting in a ticket ,machine. Don't know what came of it. But I go agree you could so with better rail services on that stretch Warrington-Chester/Ellesmere Port

thanks....we live in hope

 

[nedchester]

I think the opinion that you cannot electrify through to Helsby because of the risk of a spark from the third rail is a bit of a red herring. There is no way that a leak of flammable gases would be allowed to reach to such dangerous levels.

As for the viability of the service. Back in the early 90s before the Ellesmere Port line was electrified it was indeed the case that east of Ellesmere Port the loadings were light. However, Helsby, Ince and Elton have expanded in recent years with lots of new houses being built. Add to that the fact that more people are travelling by train and I personally think that a through service from Helsby to Liverpool could be quite popular. That said Merseyrail seems to be concentrating on increasing the frequency of services on the Chester line with half the services not stopping at Capenhurst (grrr!!)

Incidentally I still cannot understand why the proposed additional trains to Chester will not stop at Capenhurst seeing as they are stopping at all the other stations. Capenhurst is quite well used.

 

[pemma]

Maybe there is a low traveller base due to the nature and frequency of the services? I'm not fully conversant with the line or the area, so I cna't comment, but it's a classic chicken and egg situation really.

It's a typical parliamentary service. On weekdays they send one unit on to the line for a couple of runs before the morning peak and then the same mid-afternoon before the evening peak. So unless Shell have employees who start at 07:30 and finish at 14:30 the train service is of no use to them.

Perhaps the best solution here would be to run a new service between Ellesmere Port and Manchester Victoria calling at all stations between E. Port and Warrington BQ. Then the peak time extras between Chester and Manchester need not call at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Incidentally I still cannot understand why the proposed additional trains to Chester will not stop at Capenhurst seeing as they are stopping at all the other stations. Capenhurst is quite well used.

Let's look at this in proportion.

Capenhurst station gets half hourly frequency for most of the day and gets 75,266 journeys made to or from the station per annum.

Knutsford station gets half that frequency of service and gets 313,000 journeys per annum. Likewise Buxton gets a similar frequency to Knutsford and gets 301,000 journeys per annum.

You might say Northern stations get a poor frequency compared to Merseyrail stations anyway and that isn't a fair comparison.

Well let's look at Eastham Rake 481,000 journeys per annum or Hooton with 542,000 journeys per annum.

Capenhurst's figure is very low for a station with a half-hourly service however you look at it.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps the best solution here would be to run a new service between Ellesmere Port and Manchester Victoria calling at all stations between E. Port and Warrington BQ. Then the peak time extras between Chester and Manchester need not call at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East

Nice idea; it'd take a little of the pressure off the Manchester - Chester services, it may even encourage some on the Wirral to change at Elsemere for Manchester trips, rather than going into central Liverpool.

 

[frodshamfella]

Is there any news on the Halton curve...and what may operate over it, if it get re-instated ?

Thanks

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there any news on the Halton curve...and what may operate over it, if it get re-instated ?

Thanks

There were talks if its gets upgraded/resignalled etc, running an ATW hourly: Liverpool L St-Runcorn-Frodsham-Chester-Rhyl-Llandudno Jn-Llandudno.

 

[nedchester]

Capenhurst station gets half hourly frequency for most of the day and gets 75,266 journeys made to or from the station per annum.


Capenhurst's figure is very low for a station with a half-hourly service however you look at it.

Now I would be interested into how they got the figure of 75,266 per annum from?

If it is from ticket sales then I think the fact that until recently the station had no TVM nor was it part of the Penalty Fare scheme. I strongly suspect there has been a sharp rise in ticket sales from Capenhurst.

The point I am trying to make is that a stop at Capenhurst for the sake of continuity is of more benefit than not stopping. It's confusing to passengers to find that every other train doesn't stop at Capenhurst.

What are figures for Bache compared to Capenhurst? That also had no TVM and wasn't part of the Penalty Fares scheme.

 

[ukrob]

Bache was just over 100k for 2008/09.

I would much rather have a sturdy timetable than serving an extra station with very low passenger figures.

 

[nedchester]

Bache was just over 100k for 2008/09.

I would much rather have a sturdy timetable than serving an extra station with very low passenger figures.

Very low, it's hardly Stanlow and Thornton is it?

Anyway it's hardly an 'extra' station is it. It would only add one minute to the schedules at the most?

 

[ukrob]

Very low, it's hardly Stanlow and Thornton is it?

Anyway it's hardly an 'extra' station is it. It would only add one minute to the schedules at the most?

To be honest it isn't really worth discussing if you are not going to compare like for like. 100k is very low to justify a 15 minute service at the risk of causing delays and terminating short on the line.

And yes, it would add more than a minute - braking from 60mph for a station stop and the getting backup to 60mph takes more than a minute, but I suspect you already knew that.

 

[nedchester]

To be honest it isn't really worth discussing if you are not going to compare like for like. 100k is very low to justify a 15 minute service at the risk of causing delays and terminating short on the line.

And yes, it would add more than a minute - braking from 60mph for a station stop and the getting backup to 60mph takes more than a minute, but I suspect you already knew that.

True but I suspect there was a lot of ticketless travel from the likes of Bache and Capenhurst in 08/09 due to lack of ticket gates and penalty fares. As such the numbers could be higher than stated.

I would be interested to see an outline of the timetable/turn around times at Chester. At the peak time Merseyrail seem able to run a 15 minute frequency service to Chester stopping at all stations.........

 

[MidnightFlyer]

THE NEW CHESTER 1/4-HOURLY IS ON NRE NOW. Just for anyone wanting to know. To Birkenhead H Sq, it takes 46 min non-stop at Capenhurst, and 48 calling. The deps from Chester aren't even, 13 and 17 mins apart

 

[nedchester]

THE NEW CHESTER 1/4-HOURLY IS ON NRE NOW. Just for anyone wanting to know. To Birkenhead H Sq, it takes 46 min non-stop at Capenhurst, and 48 calling. The deps from Chester aren't even, 13 and 17 mins apart

and they don't stop at Bache nor Capenhurst and have a longer turn around time at Chester than the stoppers.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

and they don't stop at Bache nor Capenhurst and have a longer turn around time at Chester than the stoppers.

So Bache only retaines 1/2 hourly then?

 

[nedchester]

So Bache only retaines 1/2 hourly then?

Looks that way. the 'fasts' have a 8 minute turn around rather than a 4 minutes for the stoppers. Might as well keep all the stops and keep the 4 minute turn arounds???

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Looks that way. the 'fasts' have a 8 minute turn around rather than a 4 minutes for the stoppers. Might as well keep all the stops and keep the 4 minute turn arounds???

You do wonder don't you?

 

[tbtc]

Looks that way. the 'fasts' have a 8 minute turn around rather than a 4 minutes for the stoppers. Might as well keep all the stops and keep the 4 minute turn arounds???

Wouldn't it be better to run a "fast" that turns around at Chester to be a "slow" going back to Liverpool, and vice versa?

Would ensure that all services get the same wait and minimise disruptions.

 

[nedchester]

Wouldn't it be better to run a "fast" that turns around at Chester to be a "slow" going back to Liverpool, and vice versa?

Would ensure that all services get the same wait and minimise disruptions.

Interesting idea that and if they are going to miss stops out a sensible one.