Helsby to Ellesmere Port

[merlodlliw]

I am interested in this topic but had not heard that there was a funded proposal to extend electrification beyond Ellesmere Port. Can you point me in the direction of information about this so I can do some more research?

There have been proposals (often from organisations who did not have to pay!) for extending the third rail from Rock Ferry to most railways on the south Wirral since 1928 but it took a very long time for any of it to come to pass. This one however is new to me and I would be interested in more information.

PS. I think you mean arcing from the third rail. Flashover is usually used to describe an equipment fault. Still has potential for ignition however.

Indeed arcing is correct the potential for ignition, also known to some as as flash overs , I am not able to guide you to the paperwork as its 30 years ago, but ill try & find it,the proposal was Hooton to Helsby, with large slices of Euro funding available. It was then watered down Hooton to Chester & Hooton to Ellesmere Port after the Shell problem arose.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Jings! Crivvens!

No criticism of the Mods intended (I'm one on another forum, I appreciate its a thankless task) - I was just confused as I was pretty sure I'd already answered the point about the Warrington service - maybe I was sleep-posting again?

Anyhow, to go back on topic, this short stretch of line seems destined never to get much of a better service, it's stuck between three TOCs (Northern, Merseyrail & ATW), it doesn't really serve any large population centres, it's not much use for the one thing at Ellesmere Port that would attract visitors (Cheshire Oaks), I can't see it getting much of an increase in service whilst Cheshire - Warrington/Manchester seems to be poorly resourced (so any spare DMUs in the area would be better concentrated on services via Chester).

March of the Mods, yes it must be a thankless task.Must have put that up after a glass of red wine

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am interested in this topic but had not heard that there was a funded proposal to extend electrification beyond Ellesmere Port. Can you point me in the direction of information about this so I can do some more research?

There have been proposals (often from organisations who did not have to pay!) for extending the third rail from Rock Ferry to most railways on the south Wirral since 1928 but it took a very long time for any of it to come to pass. This one however is new to me and I would be interested in more information.

PS. I think you mean arcing from the third rail. Flashover is usually used to describe an equipment fault. Still has potential for ignition however.

Indeed arcing is correct the potential for ignition, also known to some as as flash overs I am not able to guide you to the paperwork as its 30 years ago, but ill try & find it,the proposal was Hooton to Helsby, with large slices of Euro

Bob funding available. It was then watered down Hooton to Chester & Hooton to Ellesmere Port after the Shell problem.

 

[SprinterMan]

There are many other "ghost" lines like this in the North:
Moorthorpe - Sherburn-in-Elmet via Pontefract Baghill
Knottingley - Goole
Clitheroe - Hellifield
Stockport - Stalybridge direct
Retford - Barnetby via Brigg
Morecambe - Heysham Port
(Have I missed any)

It is a shame but Helsby-Ellesmere Port is just another one of these lines, all deserve a better service, and when the pacers are replaced lets hope enough stock is ordered to give them all a better service.

 

[Green Lane]

It is a shame but Helsby-Ellesmere Port is just another one of these lines, all deserve a better service, and when the pacers are replaced lets hope enough stock is ordered to give them all a better service.

Since I've registered on here, I've seen several threads started on the Helsby-Ellesmere Port section of line, some of which I have previously participated in. There are quite possibly even more that I've not seen, given that I can often go weeks or months without visiting this forum.

So I also have to ask myself what is it about this 5-mile section of track that relatively speaking generates so much interest? I myself have to admit since riding on it a while back, I can't seem to drop my fascination with it either.

There is after all the aforementioned bus service shadowing the route of this underused line, but however, I would still prefer to make the journey by train.

Perhaps partly it's because in a way it is such a regrettable missed opportunity that the original plan of 3rd-rail electrification to Helsby never happened. This would have been so "sweet", as others have mentioned having ongoing connections to both Liverpool and Manchester from the southern banks of the Mersey Basin.

The way it is now, it's almost like having a jigsaw puzzle that's missing a piece and the urge to see it completed is overwhelming.

Of course I understand fully previously-discussed the reasons why we have the current situation. Still, there's something I really like about the line. Perhaps it's the unique "scenery" of passing through the rather large Stanlow Oil refinery on an embankment.

Has to be said I do have the urge to go on the line again at next opportunity. Certainly, if there was a more regular service, I know I would travel the line more frequently, as an enthusiast. But, as for the general public, it's difficult to see how viable it would be. A connection ultimately from Ellesmere Port in the direction of Warrington/Manchester would be useful to some people I'm sure. I've also seen the overcrowding on the Warrington-Helsby stretch. Anything to alleviate that would be good.

I do remain hopeful that in the future the Ellesmer Port-Helsby stretch of track can somehow see a useful passenger service restored.

For years, I had always wondered what these "mysterious" stations "Ince & Elton" and "Stanlow & Thronton" looked like. While the parliamentary service exists, they continue retain an air of mystique for some people on the Wirral, who otherwise have no good excuse to go there. Perhaps this has something to do with their presence on the Merseyrail map. I've since visited both on foot and in a passing train. Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

 

[D1009]

Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

I have a soft spot for it as it's a line I remember from childhood, when Hooton had 7 platforms and the Helsby service was worked by an ex LMS or BR standard 2-6-2 tank with a push-pull set from the bay !

 

[tbtc]

I think that the "fascination" stems from this short line sticking out like a sore thumb (between three TOCs, not really fitting into any of them) - we enthusiasts spend more time talking about oddities (Class 13s, Staleybridge - Stockport etc) than the "norm" (e.g. there aren't *that* many threads about the three Southern Region TOCs, considering the amount of passengers/ trains they have).

However...

There are many other "ghost" lines like this in the North:
Moorthorpe - Sherburn-in-Elmet via Pontefract Baghill
Knottingley - Goole
Clitheroe - Hellifield
Stockport - Stalybridge direct
Retford - Barnetby via Brigg
Morecambe - Heysham Port
(Have I missed any)

the parliamentary service exists

...I wouldn't consider Helsby - Ellesmere Port to be a Parliamentary service - four trains a day (six days a week) is a lot better than a lot of branch lines get. Its not as good as the other services at Helsby or Ellesmere Port of course.

 

[Green Lane]

...I wouldn't consider Helsby - Ellesmere Port to be a Parliamentary service - four trains a day (six days a week) is a lot better than a lot of branch lines get. Its not as good as the other services at Helsby or Ellesmere Port of course.

It is a good point you make. Indeed I should have more accurately used the phrase "infrequent service". It's true these stations are no "Reddish South" and it's not a "Chester to Runcorn" scenario. But your point makes me wonder then how far they could legally reduce the Helsby - Ellesmere Port services and of course why do they keep the current service of four trains a day, even though the times are generally considered to not be particularly useful? Presumably the current times just happen to fit in conveniently with movement of the involved train to/from other adjacent services? EDIT: I seem to remember these points may have been answered on here previosuly.

 

[tbtc]

It is a good point you make. Indeed I should have more accurately used the phrase "infrequent service". It's true these stations are no "Reddish South" and it's not a "Chester to Runcorn" scenario. But your point makes me wonder then how far they could legally reduce the Helsby - Ellesmere Port services and of course why do they keep the current service of four trains a day, even though the times are generally considered to not be particularly useful? Presumably the current times just happen to fit in conveniently with movement of the involved train to/from other adjacent services? EDIT: I seem to remember these points may have been answered on here previosuly.

You make an interesting point.

The minimum service proscribed in the franchise may well be four a day, I don't know, but there must be *something* on this line to justify more than just a "once a week" service.

Okay, another way to look at it - what would be the core demand on this line? Towards Manchester (and Warrington)? Or towards Liverpool (and Birkenhead)? What would be the bigger market (to tailor demand around)?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I believe that the third rail expansion to Helsby was stopped due to the proximity of a gas plant close to the track. This plant has long since been closed. Indeed, steam charters still travel this line on occasion. Of course, the budget to undertake an expansion is long gone. However, I do believe there would be demand for a direct route fromHelsby to Liverpool, via a third rail expansion or via the Halton Curve. In recent years, more and more commuters have been using the station for commutes to Manchester and I am sure that should a route be available, the same would apply to a Liverpool run. It is not just Helsby folk that use the station, outlying villages do to. Unfortunately though I wouldn't expect things to change soon.

 

[Green Lane]

what would be the core demand on this line? Towards Manchester (and Warrington)? Or towards Liverpool (and Birkenhead)? What would be the bigger market (to tailor demand around)?

I couldn't really say without wild speculation. Geographically, the line is nearer to Liverpool than Manchester, but still the Mersey estuary has to be crossed at some point and for South Liverpool, the Merseyrail lines are really going the long way round. From friends I know from Ellesmere Port, I find there are also connections with Manchester too, perhaps thanks to the M56. So to me it seems that both cities could be considered important from this location.

I suppose the situation is not unlike people living in Rainford or Orrell say on the Kirkby branch, who can go to either Liverpool or Manchester via an hourly service, I'm sure it's handy to have either option from those places further to the north. Where that route has Wigan, this route has Warrington, so it is almost analogous.

An important difference is though, that in the case of Ellesmere Port & Helsby, Chester is so close by and invariably has a much higher demand, so the regular service going that way already exists. Making the Ellesmere Port route appear somewhat superfluous in the grand scheme of things.

 

[frodshamfella]

Since I've registered on here, I've seen several threads started on the Helsby-Ellesmere Port section of line, some of which I have previously participated in. There are quite possibly even more that I've not seen, given that I can often go weeks or months without visiting this forum.

So I also have to ask myself what is it about this 5-mile section of track that relatively speaking generates so much interest? I myself have to admit since riding on it a while back, I can't seem to drop my fascination with it either.

There is after all the aforementioned bus service shadowing the route of this underused line, but however, I would still prefer to make the journey by train.

Perhaps partly it's because in a way it is such a regrettable missed opportunity that the original plan of 3rd-rail electrification to Helsby never happened. This would have been so "sweet", as others have mentioned having ongoing connections to both Liverpool and Manchester from the southern banks of the Mersey Basin.

The way it is now, it's almost like having a jigsaw puzzle that's missing a piece and the urge to see it completed is overwhelming.

Of course I understand fully previously-discussed the reasons why we have the current situation. Still, there's something I really like about the line. Perhaps it's the unique "scenery" of passing through the rather large Stanlow Oil refinery on an embankment.

Has to be said I do have the urge to go on the line again at next opportunity. Certainly, if there was a more regular service, I know I would travel the line more frequently, as an enthusiast. But, as for the general public, it's difficult to see how viable it would be. A connection ultimately from Ellesmere Port in the direction of Warrington/Manchester would be useful to some people I'm sure. I've also seen the overcrowding on the Warrington-Helsby stretch. Anything to alleviate that would be good.

I do remain hopeful that in the future the Ellesmer Port-Helsby stretch of track can somehow see a useful passenger service restored.

For years, I had always wondered what these "mysterious" stations "Ince & Elton" and "Stanlow & Thronton" looked like. While the parliamentary service exists, they continue retain an air of mystique for some people on the Wirral, who otherwise have no good excuse to go there. Perhaps this has something to do with their presence on the Merseyrail map. I've since visited both on foot and in a passing train. Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

I live quite local to the E.port-Helsby line, and even i find it hard to take a ride on it, due to the service levels, but I do when I can. To be frank not for any real reason, just because it intrigues me. It almost because I think it could be oh so much more for the local communities, and maybe one day it will, lets hope it lasts until then. I for one will still go up and down it from time to time

 

[Polarbear]

It's a pity that money couldn't be found for a short extra bit of line from about where this line goes under the M53, to Cheshire Oaks. That would give the line a sizeable destination that would attract people from further afield than the immediate locale.

If also plugged into the Merseyrail network, it would be a major boost for that TOC too.

It's about 2.5 miles from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks.

Just a thought?

 

[frodshamfella]

Polarbear has a good point, if the line could serve Cheshire Oaks, it would be very useful. I wonder why Northern Rail has this service, I would have thought I would have gone to Merseyrail, they use diesels on their Cityline to St Helens, Wigan, Preston and Manchester Victoria ? Incidently I dont know about Helsby Station, but at Frodsham Station, there is no advertised timing for any stations along the Helsby-Ellesmere Port line, even though there are some direct trains.Will have to check if its advertised at Helsby. Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby all now have electric destination indicators in place, even on the Ellesmere Port Branch platforms at Helsby.

 

[frodshamfella]

Leave Helsby towards Warrington, joining North Wales line

 

[John55]

Polarbear has a good point, if the line could serve Cheshire Oaks, it would be very useful. I wonder why Northern Rail has this service, I would have thought I would have gone to Merseyrail, they use diesels on their Cityline to St Helens, Wigan, Preston and Manchester Victoria ? Incidently I dont know about Helsby Station, but at Frodsham Station, there is no advertised timing for any stations along the Helsby-Ellesmere Port line, even though there are some direct trains.Will have to check if its advertised at Helsby. Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby all now have electric destination indicators in place, even on the Ellesmere Port Branch platforms at Helsby.

Careful there are two Merseyrails.

1 Merseyrail - the franchise/concession which run electric trains.

2 Merseyrail - all train services sponsored by the Merseyside ITA. This includes the electrics plus the diesel services out of Lime St to Wigan/Newton-le-Willows/Warrington etc which are run by Northern.

Hooton to Helsby is outside the ITA area so they will only put money into the line if it is of overall benefit to the in county network. Electrifying from Hooton to Ellesmere Port & Chester was partially paid for by the PTA/ITA although outside their area as it reduced the overall cost of running the network.

Northern runs the service because the diesel service from Rock Ferry or Hooton or Ellesmere Port to Helsby and Chester was always run by a separate organisation even in BR days. Nowadays there is no one to run it except as a extension to another service so why not Northern.

 

[tbtc]

I couldn't really say without wild speculation. Geographically, the line is nearer to Liverpool than Manchester, but still the Mersey estuary has to be crossed at some point and for South Liverpool, the Merseyrail lines are really going the long way round. From friends I know from Ellesmere Port, I find there are also connections with Manchester too, perhaps thanks to the M56. So to me it seems that both cities could be considered important from this location.

I suppose the situation is not unlike people living in Rainford or Orrell say on the Kirkby branch, who can go to either Liverpool or Manchester via an hourly service, I'm sure it's handy to have either option from those places further to the north. Where that route has Wigan, this route has Warrington, so it is almost analogous.

An important difference is though, that in the case of Ellesmere Port & Helsby, Chester is so close by and invariably has a much higher demand, so the regular service going that way already exists. Making the Ellesmere Port route appear somewhat superfluous in the grand scheme of things.

I've thought about this and I think that the better market would be towards Manchester.

Logic being:

• The biggest place on the line is Ellesmere Port (which already has a half hourly Liverpool service), so there are more in Ellesmere Port to go to Manchester than there would be people in Helsby to go to Liverpool
  
• Whilst Chester/ Ellesmere Port to Liverpool is well catered for (six trains per hour in total), the same catchment area has a very poor Manchester service (one an hour via Warrington, plus a slow Pacer that takes a lot longer going via Stockport)
  
• Going to Liverpool has the complication of electrification (and crossing boundaries between TOCs), whilst going to Manchester would be entirely on tracks run by Northern (apart from the short chord between Warrington BQ and the Eccles line?), so would fall into their domain

(no anti-Merseyside agenda, honest)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Careful there are two Merseyrails.

1 Merseyrail - the franchise/concession which run electric trains.

2 Merseyrail - all train services sponsored by the Merseyside ITA. This includes the electrics plus the diesel services out of Lime St to Wigan/Newton-le-Willows/Warrington etc which are run by Northern.

Hooton to Helsby is outside the ITA area so they will only put money into the line if it is of overall benefit to the in county network. Electrifying from Hooton to Ellesmere Port & Chester was partially paid for by the PTA/ITA although outside their area as it reduced the overall cost of running the network.

Northern runs the service because the diesel service from Rock Ferry or Hooton or Ellesmere Port to Helsby and Chester was always run by a separate organisation even in BR days. Nowadays there is no one to run it except as a extension to another service so why not Northern.

The remaining EP-Helsby trains (and the summer Sat Chester-Runcorn ghost train) run as an extension of the LIV-WBQ service, in which Merseytravel have a significant interest (in terms of all-up costs, capacity etc).
The next time for a change in operation will be when the LIV-WBQ service is electrified (2014).
Who will want the disconnected fag end of a DMU operation then?
The old Helsby/Chester-Birkenhead services were run from Chester and even today the remnants could just as well be run by ATW.
They might even connect better to Warrington/Manchester under ATW.

 

[frodshamfella]

Sounds logical to me tbtc...and maybe Helsby, Frodsham may get a link to Liverpool one day, when Halton curve brought back into full use, plus I think Merseyrail said they would like to add a new station to that at Beechwood, a residential area in Runcorn.

 

[John55]

Sounds logical to me tbtc...and maybe Helsby, Frodsham may get a link to Liverpool one day, when Halton curve brought back into full use, plus I think Merseyrail said they would like to add a new station to that at Beechwood, a residential area in Runcorn.

I think you mean Merseytravel (the name the Merseyside ITA use). The Halton Curve scheme which is joint project between Halton & Merseytravel if it ever can get some money would restore the Liverpool/Runcorn - Chester service via Frodsham.

Given the enormous traffic over the road bridge at Runcorn Gap it has always seemed odd there is no parallel train service. It is not that long ago that the Liverpool service was more frequent than the Manchester service through Frodsham. While things change I am surprised they have changed that much.

 

[frodshamfella]

I didnt know there was a regular service to Liverpool from Chester via Frodsham .When was that ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didnt know there was a regular service to Liverpool from Chester via Frodsham .When was that ?

The hourly Liverpool-Warrington BQ service ran on to Chester at one point, allowing the Llandudno-Manchester trains to skip Helsby and Frodsham.
When the trains were cut back to WBQ the Manchester trains resumed their Helsby/Frodsham calls.
I think this was in FNW days.

A very slow and indirect service, of course, nothing like as attractive as it would be via Runcorn.

 

[frodshamfella]

The hourly Liverpool-Warrington BQ service ran on to Chester at one point, allowing the Llandudno-Manchester trains to skip Helsby and Frodsham.
When the trains were cut back to WBQ the Manchester trains resumed their Helsby/Frodsham calls.
I think this was in FNW days.

A very slow and indirect service, of course, nothing like as attractive as it would be via Runcorn.

Your right there, I dont think I would go to Frodsham to get to Liverpool via Warrington, bit round the houses. More likely to Change a tChester for Merseyrail, or even Ellesmere Port subject to timings ! Although id probably just go to Acton Bridge, to get to Liverpool.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I didnt know there was a regular service to Liverpool from Chester via Frodsham .When was that ?

In the early 70's I remember a direct service from Helsby to Runcorn via the Halton Curve.

 

[John55]

I didnt know there was a regular service to Liverpool from Chester via Frodsham .When was that ?

I have just done a quick check with some old timetables.

In 1947 from Frodsham and Helsby there were;

13 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
8 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

In 1954

13 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
9 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

In 1964

15 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
15 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

The above were through trains. To/from Liverpool there were also connections at Runcorn.

The other interesting features of the services were the odd fast trains from North Wales which were Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Lime St only. Also the train which ran from Newton le Willows via Tyldesley to Manchester Exchange.

Station stops at Wavertree, Sefton Park, Halebank, Dunham Hill and Mickle Trafford on one route and at Halton, Daresbury, Norton, Astley and Cross Lane on the other are unfortunately well beyond my memory.

 

[merlodlliw]

The hourly Liverpool-Warrington BQ service ran on to Chester at one point, allowing the Llandudno-Manchester trains to skip Helsby and Frodsham.
When the trains were cut back to WBQ the Manchester trains resumed their Helsby/Frodsham calls.
I think this was in FNW days.

A very slow and indirect service, of course, nothing like as attractive as it would be via Runcorn.

Interesting point you make about FNW, I was always was under the impression the sprinters in Reg Rail days called all stations to Llandudno from Manchester on the hourly service, I recall the BR blurb giving Rhyl a 30 minute service Up & Down, one to Manchester,one to Crewe etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have just done a quick check with some old timetables.

In 1947 from Frodsham and Helsby there were;

13 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
8 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

In 1954

13 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
9 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

In 1964

15 trains per day via Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St
15 trains per day via Warrington to Manchester Ex

The above were through trains. To/from Liverpool there were also connections at Runcorn.

The other interesting features of the services were the odd fast trains from North Wales which were Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Lime St only. Also the train which ran from Newton le Willows via Tyldesley to Manchester Exchange.

Station stops at Wavertree, Sefton Park, Halebank, Dunham Hill and Mickle Trafford on one route and at Halton, Daresbury, Norton, Astley and Cross Lane on the other are unfortunately well beyond my memory.

I recall the North Wales to Liverpool service,I used to collect news off the
4.25p.m. Lime Street to Afonwen train (called the Liverpool Club by BR staff) it arrived Rhyl around 5.45p.m. it was running in the 60s, can you see it in your timetables, also at that time BR used to produce regional timetables if I recall.

Bob

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The original PSR for Ellesmere Port - Helsby was four trains a day, two of which had to run in the morning and afternoon peaks.

The first operators cynically decided to fulfil this by running trains at 6.30 and 7.02 am and then 3.30 and 4.02 pm (or somewhere thereabouts) to optimize the use of their train set.

This has to come from elsewhere as the line is an isolated part of the Northern franchise rather than the Welsh franchise which runs Chester - Manchester.

I was a member of the E. Port public transport liaison committee when building a branch from E. Port to Cheshire Oaks was discussed. It was claimed that this would require an extra unit. I said this was nonsense as trains currently had a 20 minute stopover at E. Port. This was countered by the nonsensical argument that shoppers required a unit to be in Cheshire Oaks station at all times so they didn't have to wait on the platform. Earlier we had been told that the curve at E. Port would be too tight.

I think the truth is that Merseyrail are not going to invest in a line which will take shoppers away from Liverpool and into Cheshire.

Stanlow refinery has now been sold to the Indian company Essar. Stanlow & Thornton station is on Oil Sites Road and access to the public is now limited. Barriers have been erected half way along OSR so the station can only be reached by car from the eastern end - and you have to go past some rather forbidding "private road" signs. It is a mute point as to whether this is still a public right of way.

The E. Port - Helsby line has been adopted by the North Chesire Rail Users Group.

http://www.ncrug.chrisellams.co.uk/

 

[John55]

Interesting point you make about FNW, I was always was under the impression the sprinters in Reg Rail days called all stations to Llandudno from Manchester on the hourly service, I recall the BR blurb giving Rhyl a 30 minute service Up & Down, one to Manchester,one to Crewe etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I recall the North Wales to Liverpool service,I used to collect news off the
4.25p.m. Lime Street to Afonwen train (called the Liverpool Club by BR staff) it arrived Rhyl around 5.45p.m. it was running in the 60s, can you see it in your timetables, also at that time BR used to produce regional timetables if I recall.

Bob

The original PSR for Ellesmere Port - Helsby was four trains a day, two of which had to run in the morning and afternoon peaks.

The first operators cynically decided to fulfil this by running trains at 6.30 and 7.02 am and then 3.30 and 4.02 pm (or somewhere thereabouts) to optimize the use of their train set.

This has to come from elsewhere as the line is an isolated part of the Northern franchise rather than the Welsh franchise which runs Chester - Manchester.

I was a member of the E. Port public transport liaison committee when building a branch from E. Port to Cheshire Oaks was discussed. It was claimed that this would require an extra unit. I said this was nonsense as trains currently had a 20 minute stopover at E. Port. This was countered by the nonsensical argument that shoppers required a unit to be in Cheshire Oaks station at all times so they didn't have to wait on the platform. Earlier we had been told that the curve at E. Port would be too tight.

I think the truth is that Merseyrail are not going to invest in a line which will take shoppers away from Liverpool and into Cheshire.

Stanlow refinery has now been sold to the Indian company Essar. Stanlow & Thornton station is on Oil Sites Road and access to the public is now limited. Barriers have been erected half way along OSR so the station can only be reached by car from the eastern end - and you have to go past some rather forbidding "private road" signs. It is a mute point as to whether this is still a public right of way.

The E. Port - Helsby line has been adopted by the North Chesire Rail Users Group.

http://www.ncrug.chrisellams.co.uk/

My 1954 t/t shows the 4:30pm through carriages from Lime St to Afon Wen. The others do not show a similar train.

In 1980/1 there was a Helsby to Hooton hourly shuttle which was extended to Rock Ferry in the peaks and on Saturdays

After electrification from Rock Ferry to Hooton there was a half hourly Chester to Helsby via Hooton service.

Post electrification of the Hooton - Ellesmere Port line the service from Warrington BQ towards Chester was;
- hourly Manchester to North Wales skipping Helsby and Frodsham,
- hourly all stations Lime St to Helsby with alternate trains then going to Chester and Ellesmere Port. In the peaks all trains called at all stations.

So in 1994 the EP to Helsby service was down to 8 per day from Ellesmere Port to Helsby. These were spread through the day.

I cannot confirm if this service lasted long my memory is that it didn't but whether it was BR or North West Trains who cut it down to the current lack of service I don't know. My memories of this route is that almost everyone got on/off at Ellesmere Port and the train was almost empty to/from Helsby.

The comment about a 20 minute turnaround at Ellesmere Port doesn't tally with my timetables (admittedly incomplete) which generally show a 7 or 8 minute turnaround time.

The comment about Merseyrail not wanting to take people shopping in Cheshire is nonsense. Just look how many people go to Chester on Merseyrail services and the free adverts for Cheshire Oaks on the Merseyrail website.

Like the Trafford Centre, Cheshire Oaks was built next to a motorway so it was easy to get to by car. The developer clearly saw the customers coming by car. To attract lots of customers by rail the developer would have to have built it next to a railway line but he chose a site over a mile from the nearest railway. Building a railway to a shopping centre will not work due the problems of raising the money for a rail link, but building a shopping centre next to a railway will work as shown at Meadowhall.

Did the local authorities make any effort to have the development located where it could be served by public transport?

 

[merlodlliw]

My 1954 t/t shows the 4:30pm through carriages from Lime St to Afon Wen. The others do not show a similar train.


Cheers for that, if I recall when it last ran it was 4.25p.m.


Bob

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The comment about a 20 minute turnaround at Ellesmere Port doesn't tally with my timetables (admittedly incomplete) which generally show a 7 or 8 minute turnaround time.

The turnround time is currently 12 mins, more than enough to get to Cheshire Oaks and back. It was longer when the debate took place, the timetables having changed fairly recently.

The comment about Merseyrail not wanting to take people shopping in Cheshire is nonsense. Just look how many people go to Chester on Merseyrail services and the free adverts for Cheshire Oaks on the Merseyrail website.

I was told straight from the horse's mouth by the chairman of the (now defunct) E. Port PTLC that he had been told by the chairman of Merseytravel that they would not provide any funding or support for a Cheshire Oaks extension.

It is also sad that Ellesmere Port has no PluBus tickets to encourage passengers to travel to Cheshire Oaks by train and bus.

 

[Holly]

...
I was told straight from the horse's mouth by the chairman of the (now defunct) E. Port PTLC that he had been told by the chairman of Merseytravel that they would not provide any funding or support for a Cheshire Oaks extension.

What you have to do is to hold the developers to ransom.

When, one day, they seek a major expansion to Cheshire Oaks you make it conditional on building a steel wheel connection to Ellesmere Port Merseyrail.
Mind you, I would think a tram might be sufficient and cheaper than third rail.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

What you have to do is to hold the developers to ransom.

When, one day, they seek a major expansion to Cheshire Oaks you make it conditional on building a steel wheel connection to Ellesmere Port Merseyrail.
Mind you, I would think a tram might be sufficient and cheaper than third rail.

A Helsby to E Port tram shuttle via a Cheshire Oak connection would open up Warrington and beyond as well as the Wirral.