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Discussion in 'Railtours & Preservation' started by Prairie_5542, 4 May 2015.
Which line if you could choose to be extended, which one would it be and why?
It would be any line that allows access to it by rail- the Rother Valley /K&ESR would be right up there for me.
For me, I would love to see the Bodmin & Wenford reinstated back to Wadebridge, and ultimately to its former terminus at Padstow. Another would be the Llangollen Railway to Ruabon, and at the other end to its former junction with the Cambrian coast line, there's a few others too...
Wensleydale Railway all the way from Northallerton through Hawes and up to Garsdale.
The Lincolnshire Wolds Railway would be brilliant if it went from Louth to at least New Waltham or Grimsby if that's feasible.
If North York Moors Railway went to Malton it would make Whitby more accessible.
And I think Great Central Railway are going to run from Leicester to Ruddington near Nottingham.
Why can't Mid Norfolk run from Norwich anyway?
Or Ecclesbourne Valley from Derby?
GCR Birstall - Ruddington
Because the lines are busy with normal services, there isn't the room for Heritage stuff.
Trowse Swing bridge is single line, which limits capacity...
Agree with both of the above! Love those parts of Cornwall and Yorkshire!
I'd like to see the Embsay railway reach Skipton and then Addingham (if only they could run back to Ilkley... more or less impossible though)
It would be nice if the Middleton Railway could extend their run so it's not a 15 minute round trip but again, options are limited although there's some room in Middleton Park.
A post that illustrates the misconception at the heart of this thread.
Railway preservation isn't about opening up as much closed route as possible. It has to be sustainable. In many cases, there would be a diminishing return, for the extra expense of maintaining extra railway. it's not public transport.
Somewhere like the Moors, SVR, etc, are in the business of entertaining a family for a day, in return for their c£50 family ticket. If you can fill the trains with a 24 mile journey, there is no point in adding the cost of maintaining another 6, even if you could raise the millions to reinstate it (and bulldoze supermarkets, major road junctions, re - route to avoid level crossings, etc).
The numbers for Pickering - Rillingoton have been well and truly crunched, and they don't stack up.
My fantasy - to make the journey from Northallerton - Garsdale. Will it happen?
Sadly, I doubt it. Without public funding, the capital costs will be prohibitive. Beautiful though the journey would be, I think it would be too long for a family trip, though I would love to be proved wrong.
The North York Moors Railway would have higher usage and be more sustainable if non-car people could get there without an hour long bus ride, wouldn't it? Other connect heritage lines look to do better than non connected ones. And public transport does account for some travel, hence why Wirksworth is on National Rail Enquiries now.
Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway finally getting to Risborough which is only accessible by car with no buses on Sunday- the day that their services usually only run!
Yet the powers that be have decided it's not in the railway's best interest. It's not just about connecting to the national network and the money will come flowing in. There are other factors to consider, the NYMR has stated in the railway press several times now that the railway is at it's limit from an operational point of voew and have even considered to redouble short sections of the line to increase capacity. To extend to Rillington would require nearly the entire railway to be double track in order to run enough trains to make it a viable proposition. But then you are increasing your infrastructure costs by over 100% with no guaranteed return.
I agree with Grimsby Pacer on this. Putting aside the actual difficulties of reinstating the line, surely if a magic wand could be waved to extend the NYMR to Malton it would be brilliant?
Accessing the southern end of the line at Pickering is arduous if you don't drive - an hour from Scarborough by bus for an 18 mile journey and an hour and 20 minutes from York for a 26 mile journey. What family with young kids is going to go through that? It's tricky enough as it is on your own, needing careful advance planning to not be on a bus that arrives just as the NYMR train has departed.
Imagine how easy it would be to attract people to the line and promote it in Scarborough and York connecting with the swift 20-25 minute regular train service from Scarborough or York to Malton that runs until 10.30pm.
On top of that, as a railway enthusiast, I can't help finding it something of a paradox that a railway, even if it is a preserved one, actively encourages people to pile into cars in order to ride on it.
But how many people would you actually be talking about?
There aren't many non - car families, that could actually afford the day out.
I doubt that significantly increasing the fares would be possible either. The competition with other days out is what matters, and £50 is a definite benchmark.
The journey time too - nearly two hours to Whitby at a rough estimate, would be too long for most families. Children have a boredom threshold!!
More and easier parking at Pickering is what's needed, plus the internal infrastructure to operate the service more from that end. Malton would require "dead" workings, which all adds to the cost. The need is to accommodate the visitor numbers, but at a lower cost. There's certainly not the resource, of all kinds, to be adding to operating expenses. The Whitby paths are set in stone, and if you add journey times to Malton, you're going to have a problem with length of working days for signalmen too. Having to double shift each box, would get rather expensive.
Practically - the route out of Pickering hasn't been protected, and has been significantly and (realistically) irrevocably developed. 40 years on, the railway has never made any attempt to re - open the route to Malton, whilst always having an eye on running into Whitby. That should tell you something.
I reckon it just might happen, eventually - I think there are enough individual places of interest along that route such as Castle Bolton, for it to be popular.
I don't think they could run every service the full length of the line. But it wouldn't surprise me if they re-laid the track the whole way along and used it occasionally. I imagine it'd be popular as part of a route for rail tours too.
On the other hand, you can still walk much of the trackbed around Castle Bolton and it's quite an enjoyable walk, so maybe it'd be a shame..
Good Man, Hopefully it wont be too long before your dreams come true. We put in our Network Rail connection last month. Planning permission for the missing 2 miles is due next month.
Platform 4 at Robertsbridge Junction is well under way. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EJ_DBLVyu0A/VTult4Ikl5I/AAAAAAAAAVU/rmE-_oML8nQ/s1024/DSCF3901.JPG (Hastings Top Left, London Charing Cross Right, Tenterden Bottom Right).
Paul1609 director K&ESR
L&HR to Plumpton Jn thence Ulverston/Carnforth/Carlisle (and Coniston!!)
As far as Ecclesbourne Valley is concerned, if there was a suitably signalled connection and suitable main-line passed stock there is no line capacity reason for them not to run into Derby on Sundays (e.g. they could alternate with the Matlock service which only runs every two hours on Sunday).
The reason is almost certain not to happen is that the cost of reconnecting the branch and signalling the connection would be £millions x X where X is unknown but probably something like 6 or more. For comparison, it cost £3million to include Worgret junction in a larger re-signalling scheme - and this was a special low price due to it being done at the same time as the rest of the signalling, and there was already a physical connection!
The only possible circumstances I can see it happening are:
1/ Local authority grant (as per Worgret) as part of a scheme to reinstate a regular scheduled service (but I'm not sure if there are enough paths into Derby apart form Sundays, and I'm not in any way saying this is financial viable).
2/ In conjunction with a Freight scheme (don't have any specific in mind) where the Freight company paid for the connection and got running rights.
3/ Very rich person dies and leaves loads of money for this specific purpose.
Mid Norfolk to Norwich would surely be a lot easier, it's already happened on special occasions and as far as I'm aware the junction is fully signalled etc. (correct me if wrong - the Wikipedia entry for Wymondham Station states " In December 2012, the signal box was closed and the semaphore signalling was replaced by lightweight LED signals controlled from Cambridge signal box." and I assume this covers the junction). There are surely enough paths from Wymondham Junction to Thorpe Junction but I don't know if there would issues with platforms/station approach capacity at Norwich. Apart from that issue the main problem would be providing suitable main-line passed stock.
Im not going to pretend that I know what im talking about, but someone earlier mentioned about passenger trains running from Dereham to Norwich.
Now obviously, sometime in the dim and distant past, trains did run like this. Also, I know that the last freights ran on what is now the MNR around 1989.
There is a bus service that runs frequently from Peterborough to Dereham market place. This must be for people who get off trains at Peterborough.
My question is... WHY?????
If there is enough justification for a bus to run permanantly to Dereham, why not upgrade the MNR for a passenger service. I believe there are occasional services on the MNR anyway. Please enlighten someone!
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Oh... as I was typing all that, Duffield had the same thoughts!
I like a day out in Yorkshire as much as the next man. Whenever I go, apart from the occasional solo football/beers trip to Sheffield, family trips are always - ALWAYS - by car.
Therefore, if I want a nice trip out to the NYMR, I'd be driving to Pickering early doors. Even if it did run to Malton, I wouldn't do it by train. I'd probably drive to Malton, do a trip on the train and then Eden Camp.
We're as public-transport conscious as the next man, share a single car between us (I often run to work, the wife often takes a bus to town, I invariably take a train if I'm going away on my own), but never as a family. The train takes too long and is more expensive. So even if the NYMR was linked to National Rail we'd still drive.
totally agree regarding B&W reinstating rail services to Wadebridge and Padstow
The bus runs Peterborough to Norwich / Lowestoft bus but is advertised at Peterborough railway station as Peterborough to Dereham in case intending Peterboorough Norwich passengers caught the bus rather than train. The bus provides a useful connection between Peterborough and Kings Lynn / Kings Lynn and Norwich but permutations between intermediate stops. Thus an existing "Peterborough to Dereham" bus service in its own right does not demonstrate the potential demand for a future rail service via the existing MNR.
Ps apologies for the long winded reply...
PPs looking forward to Peak Rail being extended to Rowsley (and, dare I say, one day Buxton...).
And PPPs, forgot to add: MNR being extended to Fakenham (and one day Holt...).
Plus PPPPs, how about NNR being extended to Cromer...
Very sound and reasoned points in your post. And it's almost certainly academic, as it's so unlikely to happen.
I do wonder why you think the above point, though? The Bluebell Railway re-connecting to the main line at East Grinstead brought them 60,000 extra passengers in the first year.
As nobody has yet mentioned any of the lines in Scotland here's my starter(s) for 10.....
Concentrating first on the Strathspey which once Transport Scotland pulls their finger out and realigns in the A95 between Craggan & Gaich will allow the Strathspey to reopen all the way to Grantown. This has been in the pipeline for years and will be a fantastic route to travel on.
But why stop there??
There is a website out there campaigning for the reopening of the line all the way to it's original end at Forres. Vast majority of the track bed is untouched and it would make an awesome preserved line (plus a potential diversionary route).
And it that doesn't wet your appetite.......
How about then reopening the line from Boat of Garden to Dufftown?? Again most of the trackbed untouched, many of the stations still there and it would link to preserved railways together like they were originally (and would create another diversionary route - assuming Network Rail reconnected the Whisky line @ Keith Junction).
Does anyone have a bottomless bank balance that could help out??
Oh and one more for you......
The Deeside Line.........
Oh my word, being able to travel to Coniston by train would be a dream for me!
Extending heritage railways isn't all it's cracked up to be.
The Bluebell, when it ran between Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes, was a delight, in particular trains were so frequent you could just turn up whenever, it didn't take too long to go out and back, there was time to look round the station at the other end, and such like.
Nowadays there's a much longer route but also much less frequent service, less classic heritage stock and more Mk 1s, the trip takes most of the day now which is boring to the non-enthusiast family members, and if you do just Sheffield Park to HK and back you are torn between a 2 minute dash between trains or waiting what seems too long for the next in the service.
Having just visited the Bluebell for the first time in 15 years, I have to agree with above. With two trains in service, the wait is usually around 1hr 15 minute. This is fine at Sheffield Park, but even with the Toy & Train fare at HK, I had finishing viewing everything yet still had 30 minutes to wait in the cold for the next train. BTW, I drove to East Grinsted as it was the easiest place to drive to from the north.
Duffield is spot-on here. The cost to reinstate Duffield Junction is in excess of £1m although one factor is that 'passive provision' has been made to retain signalling interlocking even if the ironmongery has gone.
Capacity on the Duffield to Derby stretch would be an issue but I cannot see a circumstance where we at the EVR would want to run regular timetabled services to Derby. I'd never say never but it doesn't feature in any plans. However, to have a mainline connection would open-up the possibility of allowing through excursions: something that would be very attractive.
The real deciding factor would be freight. Should freight return to Wirksworth (not an impossibility, more of a long-term opportunity), then that would require the junction to be reinstated.
I always like to visit other heritage railways and the EVR has been on my wish list for sometime particularly as we (K&ESR) are hoping to have the through ticketing and cross platform interchange problem in the not to distant future. Its a bit far to drive for a day trip and I'm usually tied up on the K&ESR on Saturdays. Ive looked at a Sunday day trip but that is more or less impossible because of the lack of connections at Duffield, I think it works out at 7 mins Derby to Duffield, 1hr 15 mins connection and then 33 mins to Wirksworth. This kind of gives the impression that through traffic from national Rail isnt your priority market?