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Heritage Railways - Storage of rolling stock and locomotives?

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2392

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One of the advantages of the MK1 TSO is the relatively high capacity and the 4 seats around a table layout. Whilst compartment stock has an appeal it tends to be under utilised as people dont seem to "want to "share"

Gresley Dia, 186s TTOs, also have the same 4 seat bays with tables, seating the same 64 folk of a MK1 TSO. In both cases the Brakes versions also seat in their case 32 in 4 seat bays with tables. What's more the public have an eye for such carriages as different to the run of the mill Mk1. Mind you there will be those who don't know their "Backside from their Brain" as well............
 

Tom B

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SK/CK etc will prove useful, surely, to accommodate social distancing?!
 
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Agreed to both above comments. I think some of the posters here have little experience of projects and especially heritage restoration projects!


Agreed date for completion? In the time it took you to read this sentence that just changed? Now what? Penalties you say? Well the reason we are late is that we don't have the funds to get the recently discovered failed item replaced.........................



Using my GF as the litmus test: Would she care? We had a trip out on Tornado and Flying Scotsman. Do you think it was important when either we built? Not in the slightest. Does it look, sound and smell right? Does it chuff and peep?

( also most of these locomotives are like Cher - none of the parts are more than 10 years old ;) )

I think you have to have a date for completion in mind. What it cant be is infinity!! Even if depending on the project in hand, a realistic timescale needs to be considered. If it was 5 years so be it!! The thing is as someone who has been involved in one or two restoration projects over the years AND also been on the other side of the fence for a railway, I can see both sides.

IMHO buying the stock or loco is the easy bit, however you need funds, lots of cash, more than you can ever estimate - I was involved in a project where the loco was placed on some private non-related land - we only had the peppercorn rent to worry about with no timescales either.

Why do people still persist in bringing stock or locos to railways with precious little space? Beyond me?
 

DarloRich

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I think you have to have a date for completion in mind. What it cant be is infinity!! Even if depending on the project in hand, a realistic timescale needs to be considered. If it was 5 years so be it!! The thing is as someone who has been involved in one or two restoration projects over the years AND also been on the other side of the fence for a railway, I can see both sides.

IMHO buying the stock or loco is the easy bit, however you need funds, lots of cash, more than you can ever estimate - I was involved in a project where the loco was placed on some private non-related land - we only had the peppercorn rent to worry about with no timescales either.

Why do people still persist in bringing stock or locos to railways with precious little space? Beyond me?


You can have a date in mind but making it fixed is going to be very difficult. Things happen in projects especially when you are relying on volunteer or less than full time labour and society finances. If it is being run as a professional restoration then that will be easier but still not easy: Flying Scotsman is the example. ( report here if anyone is interested - http://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.u...17/06/flying_scotsman_report_october_2012.pdf )

Personally I think you want to see a proper business plan, funding streams, a proper logical project plan and progress against a schedule of small milestones to show that the society is capable of repairing their item in anything like good order and that the understanding the complexity involved in repairing their item and crucial are realistic about the time scales. You also want a proper lease agreement with clear review/break clauses drawn up by legal professionals
 

43096

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Why do people still persist in bringing stock or locos to railways with precious little space? Beyond me?
You might also ask why the railways keep accepting them. Guess we’re back to the whole question of this thread!
 

Titfield

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it would be interesting to know if all the moves are from one heritage raiway to another. If thats the case then the hauliers are the winners and I suspect the losers are railways who have told someone to go because they (the loco owners) havent been paying the rent!
 
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You might also ask why the railways keep accepting them. Guess we’re back to the whole question of this thread!
Totally agree - But break it down and lets analyse it a bit further.
Bit like someone rocking up to your house with an old car, asking to put it on your drive so they can fix it.
You dont own the car, dont know the person and have no idea as to when \ if they are going to fix it.... You wouldnt allow it would you??
So why do these people / groups do it?
I agree with Titfield latter comment that someone has told them to go to such and such a place BECAUSE they havent been paying the rent - In other words a soft touch!!
If these people are serious, put their money where their mouth is and rent some space somewhere.
I also agree with DarloRich to a point about his latter comment relating to Business Plan - The vast majority havent a clue - The minority have and appreciate the difficulties they are going to encounter, particularly monies.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Personally I think you want to see a proper business plan, funding streams, a proper logical project plan and progress against a schedule of small milestones to show that the society is capable of repairing their item in anything like good order and that the understanding the complexity involved in repairing their item and crucial are realistic about the time scales. You also want a proper lease agreement with clear review/break clauses drawn up by legal professionals
This, if anything is the right answer.

I have no involvement in railway preservation, but from having seen other voluntary activities, the important thing is to be business-like, even if you're not a business.
 
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This, if anything is the right answer.

I have no involvement in railway preservation, but from having seen other voluntary activities, the important thing is to be business-like, even if you're not a business.
Absolutely agree with DarlorICH AS REGARDS a Business Plan - Its fundamental. Sadly the cycle what happens in many cases is enthusiastic optimism eventually giving way to pessimism and lack of interest.

There's nothing wrong with speculators, dreamers, entrepreneurs, to get it off the ground idea wise, however you need a few realists in the mix with experience not only in hands on but the accounts etc.

So IMHO....Plan the dream & deliver on some non railway location and see it happen with good solid management.
 

Flying Phil

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Absolutely agree with DarlorICH AS REGARDS a Business Plan - Its fundamental. Sadly the cycle what happens in many cases is enthusiastic optimism eventually giving way to pessimism and lack of interest.

There's nothing wrong with speculators, dreamers, entrepreneurs, to get it off the ground idea wise, however you need a few realists in the mix with experience not only in hands on but the accounts etc.

So IMHO....Plan the dream & deliver on some non railway location and see it happen with good solid management.
But the railway location can give you the much needed railway expertise together with many of the tools needed to get the job done. Having these activities on site also gives the railway more attractions. However, as has been said, try to keep it attractive and keep the scrap/and or detritus out of view.
 

Alanko

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Why do people still persist in bringing stock or locos to railways with precious little space? Beyond me?

Magpie-ism, perhaps? There must be something thrilling about stockpiling stock, otherwise it wouldn't be such a widespread issue on heritage railways! The 26 sitting at Whitrope Sidings came from the back of a haulage yard in Fife. The owner bought it (probably for not that much money) in the early '90s. It then sat behind a derelict power station, then the haulage yard. At some point it got a coat of paint. If you approach a tiny heritage outfit and ask them to home your heritage traction, then I imagine it is hard to say no. In reality, its a scabby 26 that can't move under its own power, abandoned in a fairly remote location.

Likewise I once asked the Caledonian Railway (via Facebook) why they took on another thrashed 26 when they already had a stockpile dead Type 2 diesels at Bridge of Dun. Apparently the thrashed 26 was being kept for parts, but there were plans to restore the other diesels. This is lunacy, surely. They operate on a five mile track from Brechin to Nowhere, and already have a good example of both a 26 and 27. Do they need a fleet of eight of the things, to pootle along at 25 mph? Again the phrase 'magpie-ism' springs to mind. Somebody is getting rid of their 'McRat', lets pounce on it.

As I said in another thread, a heritage railway really just needs a couple of Black 5s (or Hunslet Austerity thingy), a rake of maroon mk2s with droplight windows, and a 31/33/37/47 for quiet days. You simply shunt happy passengers from A to B (where B is anything from a platform in the middle of the weeds to a small market town five miles away).

There is a grandiose notion that heritage railways are carefully curating the linear scrapyards and preserving important cultural heritage. In reality I think it is the haulage firms and scrapyards that stand to gain the most.
 

Ashley Hill

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The trouble is that one persons junk is another's treasure. Take wagons. One item in the linear scrapline could be the only surviving wagon of its type or company. The owner may have loved it but died leaving it to the railway. Does it get scrapped as junk or wait patiently for restoration. We've run demonstration freight trains on gala days and the general public have shown little interest in these immaculately turned out wagons. So there's the dilemma,keep them for historical posterity or scrap them as nobody is interested.
 

Flying Phil

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The trouble is that one persons junk is another's treasure. Take wagons. One item in the linear scrapline could be the only surviving wagon of its type or company. The owner may have loved it but died leaving it to the railway. Does it get scrapped as junk or wait patiently for restoration. We've run demonstration freight trains on gala days and the general public have shown little interest in these immaculately turned out wagons. So there's the dilemma,keep them for historical posterity or scrap them as nobody is interested.
Whilst it is true that many of the "general public" do not appear to be interested, these wagons do help to justify the preservation, education and historic aims of many of the charities that help to support these heritage railways. They also provide an opportunity for "relatively" low skilled practical work for volunteers. The GCR "Goods Galore" events are well supported.
 

Ashley Hill

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Whilst it is true that many of the "general public" do not appear to be interested, these wagons do help to justify the preservation, education and historic aims of many of the charities that help to support these heritage railways. They also provide an opportunity for "relatively" low skilled practical work for volunteers. The GCR "Goods Galore" events are well supported.
Indeed, the GC has done very well with the Windcutter and other wagons like the Palbrick. No vehlcles should ever be scrapped unless written off beyond repair.
 

6Gman

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I've been behind a 9F on the Great Central Railway. Given it seemed to be putting more energy into creating a smoke screen than making itself move, it did seem considerably overengineered for what it was doing. I can't help feeling it would have preferred to travel far more quickly and pulling far more weight....

Old-time footplatemen have told me they were over-engineered even in BR days! By which they meant that by the time all 251 were in service there really wasn't enough of the work they were designed for, so they ended up on jobs better suited to an 8F or a Black Five.
 
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Likewise I once asked the Caledonian Railway (via Facebook) why they took on another thrashed 26 when they already had a stockpile dead Type 2 diesels at Bridge of Dun. Apparently the thrashed 26 was being kept for parts, but there were plans to restore the other diesels. This is lunacy, surely. They operate on a five mile track from Brechin to Nowhere, and already have a good example of both a 26 and 27. Do they need a fleet of eight of the things, to pootle along at 25 mph? Again the phrase 'magpie-ism' springs to mind. Somebody is getting rid of their 'McRat', lets pounce on it.

As I said in another thread, a heritage railway really just needs a couple of Black 5s (or Hunslet Austerity thingy), a rake of maroon mk2s with droplight windows, and a 31/33/37/47 for quiet days. You simply shunt happy passengers from A to B (where B is anything from a platform in the middle of the weeds to a small market town five miles away).
I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that.

Excess stock is only a problem if you don't have space for it, or if it's costing you too much to acquire/look after. If it's going cheap/free then I can't see why even the most buisness focused railway wouldn't take it? Even if it's a lame duck there will be spare parts that could be used to keep other trains going, or you could combine parts to get one more locomotive operational, which could be sold if it's surplus.

You could run a 100% business focused railway for tourists with minimal stock, that's not gonna keep your volunteers happy though, and your business doesn't work without them because you can't afford to pay anyone.
 
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I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that.

Excess stock is only a problem if you don't have space for it, or if it's costing you too much to acquire/look after. If it's going cheap/free then I can't see why even the most buisness focused railway wouldn't take it? Even if it's a lame duck there will be spare parts that could be used to keep other trains going, or you could combine parts to get one more locomotive operational, which could be sold if it's surplus.

You could run a 100% business focused railway for tourists with minimal stock, that's not gonna keep your volunteers happy though, and your business doesn't work without them because you can't afford to pay anyone.
Well, if you must be a hoarder, as opposed to a preservationist, keep the stuff tidy.
 

Fawkes Cat

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If it's going cheap/free then I can't see why even the most buisness focused railway wouldn't take it?
1) Because even free locomotives take up space that may have a better or more profitable use
2) Because while looking like a linear scrapyard may not have a tangible cost in the way that (1) above does, it might put off visitors who will take their money to the Tidy Preserved Railway down the road.
 
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I have read the many replies and comments and there's a compelling argument no matter which camp you are in as regards stock storage.

Whilst one commented that stock would be better placed at a rail site than away, Im sorry I dont buy into that. Ideally a good secure place, ideally covered, on an edge of town industrial estate would always be my preferred choice.

That way under no pressure from the incumbent railway to get a move on, restoration could continue unfettered.

I know at least two industrial estates in the north east that house 1 x 03 Shunter & Austerity & 08 respectively. No where near a railway and they also attract a large amount of regular volunteers.

Plus and here's the big one....I dont think an owner can sleep easy at night wondering if his pride and joy is going to be moved on at the behest of the Management who decide on a whim to have a clear out of the sidings.

I certainly wouldnt want to be in that situation?
 
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1) Because even free locomotives take up space that may have a better or more profitable use
2) Because while looking like a linear scrapyard may not have a tangible cost in the way that (1) above does, it might put off visitors who will take their money to the Tidy Preserved Railway down the road.
If it was a wagon or a wrecked coach I might agree with you, but for a small amount of siding space even a dead locomotive is valuable, it can be restored, stripped of valuable spare parts to keep other ones going or sold on.

Plus, enthusiasts and volunteers like locomotives.
 
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If it was a wagon or a wrecked coach I might agree with you, but for a small amount of siding space even a dead locomotive is valuable, it can be restored, stripped of valuable spare parts to keep other ones going or sold on.

Plus, enthusiasts and volunteers like locomotives.
Tourist railways are in competition with things such as farm parks or country houses for visitors. People, be they enthusiasts or "normals" are interested to see things being worked upon. However people do not go to see manure heaps at farm parks or the dustbin area at big houses. Pieces of saddle tank locomotives torn apart years ago, scattered around but then left are a turn off and not just to "normals"
 

UP13

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enthusiasts and volunteers like locomotives.

I like locomotives but not scrap that has sat there for years, if not decades.

It's not a good look and as somebody else said the railways are competing against farmyards, castles etc.

Before anybody says anything about being authentic, I'm pretty sure pre-Beeching branch lines didn't have linear scrapyards.
 

paul1609

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Before anybody says anything about being authentic, I'm pretty sure pre-Beeching branch lines didn't have linear scrapyards.
In respect of the Col. Stephens yes there were large amounts of redundant equipment. Ashford works also had quite a lot of scrap lines in my youth.
 
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Tourist railways are in competition with things such as farm parks or country houses for visitors. People, be they enthusiasts or "normals" are interested to see things being worked upon. However people do not go to see manure heaps at farm parks or the dustbin area at big houses. Pieces of saddle tank locomotives torn apart years ago, scattered around but then left are a turn off and not just to "normals"
True, I was talking about the relatively complete (but broken) Class 26 that Caledonian acquired. I agree entirely that hoarding total junk is a bad idea.

The point I was making is that if something has valuable parts or has the potential to be useful then it's not junk and it might be good business sense to keep it. Obviously that doesn't really apply to most of the rubbish that accumulates in sidings but some things genuinely are useful.
 
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xotGD

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The question is: How big does a pile of scrap have to be before spotters start counting it for sight? :smile:
 

Titfield

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Cant also help that think that leaving "scrap" lying around encourages unwelcome guests looking for stuff to "liberate". How many heritage railways have had tools and other valuable materials "stolen" because it has been made so easy?
 

UP13

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Cant also help that think that leaving "scrap" lying around encourages unwelcome guests looking for stuff to "liberate". How many heritage railways have had tools and other valuable materials "stolen" because it has been made so easy?

Fair point.
 

2392

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Cant also help that think that leaving "scrap" lying around encourages unwelcome guests looking for stuff to "liberate". How many heritage railways have had tools and other valuable materials "stolen" because it has been made so easy?

Indeed the Tanfield Railway had a "visit" by the itinerant scrapmen back in May/June. As ever in these cases they were in the final throws of restoring an engine when they had the visit. Result delays in completing the restoration/overhaul and the need to have new parts made/acquired....... :'(<(.
 
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